Bongosamaj Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 For the simple reason that the taxes that would be paid would go into the pockets of corrupt politician. What we need is a more clean political system first before we implement these draconian tax laws Agreed. And a very simple (though slow) way of ensuring political reform is to get the supreme court/parliament to pass & uphold freedom of information act, where anybody can access information about contracts & tenders let out by the government, tax revenue details, etc. for a simple nominal fee. But given how corrupt & hopelessly narrow-minded & oldschool India is, that aint gonna happen either.
coffee_rules Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 More Taxation will only end up in the coffers of the politicians. The problem with India is wealth gained by the governtment is supposed to enrich the poor and the under-privileged to get a balance in the economic state of the society. Instead the poor and lower middle class, or for that matter all kinds of middle-class will get rich on their own without any help from the govenrment. All the taxes collected seem to be drained out in corruption. Control the corruption, we can control the wealth distribution as well.
Lurker Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 And a very simple (though slow) way of ensuring political reform is to get the supreme court/parliament to pass & uphold freedom of information act' date=' where anybody can access information about contracts & tenders let out by the government, tax revenue details, etc. for a simple nominal fee. But given how corrupt & hopelessly narrow-minded & oldschool India is, that aint gonna happen either.[/quote'] Thats one way to look at it. I personally think Indian political system wont be cleansed until the educated middle-class stop treating it as bakwaas and delves right into it. Even though we do have educated middle class politicians at the top, like AB Vajpayee or Manmohan Singh, we have an overwhelming cr@ppola disguised as Parliament. Which is another of my gripe with NRIs. While we are quick to say why US is better than India etc etc, and what we can learn from them, rarely is an effort made to actually get to the nitty gritty and clean the political system. In Western world there are lot more checks and balances that is in India and I would sure like to see that happen in India as well. xxx
coffee_rules Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Clean political system evolves over time when we see generations of homegenous societies come and go. In India, we are united only by currency. We have states, religion, languages, castes, classes dividing us.
fineleg Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Again, not so cut-n-dried. Take for example this- you are a smart guy/girl who invents ground-breaking medicine for AIDS. Now you want royalties for your invention & you are busy dreaming the millions-nay, the billions you will earn. But turns out that 90% of people either cannot afford your life-saving drug or it costs them half their yearly income. So now you end up with super-rich dude who profited essentially from forcing humans to choose between life & death. Still very legal & ethical by your standards ? Bongo, If a person did not invent those drug, then those who afford it *and* those cannot afford it - both would die. This situation is no better, is it? If a person is investing their time and effort and taking risk(after all the invention can go poof), to invent or create something, then they are doing it for a reason - dont assume they have to do it for the "welfare of the world". You can appreciate those who do that, but cannot expect it by default. At the very least, some folks (who can afford) can be saved. Better that than no one. (Best may be to save many more, and reduce prices, but it cannot be mandated). If wealthy living is NOT ALLOWED, then incentive to be different and create will be crushed - we need new creations, and new ideas in this world. Why not ? We do many things for public convenience. We cant just do whatever we want, there is something called public good. Its like saying " I will play music in my house as loudly as i want" . That doesnt work that way because public good is affected. Wealth distribution is something that helps public good. We must be objective enough to not just look at the system and say, " Well, everything is done by the book" . The main issue , the system IS the problem. How can we accept something based on something whose foundations itself is shaky ? I dont agree MM. By playing music loudly in your house, you are creating problems for others. A person can go do his/her "day to day" job, and not create problem for others, nor create anything new. But on the other hand, he/she can choose to toil and create something new. If they do that, and they happen to become successful, they did it, and they reap the rewards. They have not harmed anyone, they only did something through which they primarily benefit. It is for-profit.
Bongosamaj Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 If a person did not invent those drug, then those who afford it *and* those cannot afford it - both would die. This situation is no better, is it? It is better than all dying, yes. But it is still inferior to the option of saying 'good job, well done, now take your medal, a couple of million and get on with your life- this $hit is too important/valuable for you to hold entire humanity to ransom over it'. You can appreciate those who do that, but cannot expect it by default. If your invention is of the nature where it helps out/profits the fate of the world/mankind, then damn right, i will EXPECT you to hold on to that by default. Best may be to save many more, and reduce prices, but it cannot be mandated). Ofcourse it can be mandated. It has already been mandated. And to not mandate it is an ethical crime. If wealthy living is NOT ALLOWED, then incentive to be different and create will be crushed - we need new creations, and new ideas in this world. Dude, i have nothing against wealthy living. But i hope you realize that by today's monetary value,you are having a VERY WEALTHY LIVING by having 10-20 million dollars in the kitty. You dont NEED the 100s of millions of dollars or the billions and if you are going to contest that by making life harder for you to earn hundreds of millions or billions, i am stunting creativity, then i must beg to differ. 99.9999% of inventors & discoverers don't end up/didn't end up with 100s of millions or billions in the kitty.
fineleg Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 I still feel there is something incorrect in what you say - but not able to articulate myself well right now. Will make another attempt after sometime.
Bongosamaj Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 I still feel there is something incorrect in what you say - but not able to articulate myself well right now. Will make another attempt after sometime. Okay. I look forward to it. I think most of your perception of correctness of what i say is a cultural slant to it. In India today, capitalism is booming and for the short-term, it is a good thing. But unfortunately most indians do not realize how seriously flawed the capitalist world order is and how much India will lose if it ultimately went through with the complete capitalist model. Or if you live in USA, i'd expect you to think there is something 'wrong' with what i am saying- it is afterall, the land of ultra-capitalists, where money comes above all, including human beings. But i'd be surprized if you found my viewpoint to be completely incorrect/alien and you lived in mainland Europe/Scandinavia/canada. These places tend to be far saner with their economic policy than America.
Bongosamaj Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Clean political system evolves over time when we see generations of homegenous societies come and goCompletely disagree. And completely false. US society has not been completely homogenous and their social problems still exist and were far far bigger than the ones in India. Despite this, they had/have a much better political system. France for example, has one of the best political systems and french society is nowhere as homogenous or 'at peace' as you imply- atleast, not for the last 200 years. Spain is another example- they were having total blow-out civil war just 70 yrs ago and even today, the fractures running in the Spanish societies are very deep and no different from the islamophobia in India ( just change the words 'muslim' and 'india' with 'basque' and 'spain' and you get a more hardcore version of social divide in Spain). No, it comes from a sense of personal responsibility towards society. Not having chest-thumpers who go declare how Indian they are or how much hindu they are at the drop of a hat & ultimately do nothing more than being idiotic armchair critics. I am not against armchair critics per se but when you have a society like India, where everyone is an armchair critic and nobody has the integrity or balls to do something about it, we definitely have a problem.
coffee_rules Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Completely disagree. And completely false. US society has not been completely homogenous and their social problems still exist and were far far bigger than the ones in India. Despite this, they had/have a much better political system. France for example, has one of the best political systems and french society is nowhere as homogenous or 'at peace' as you imply- atleast, not for the last 200 years. Spain is another example- they were having total blow-out civil war just 70 yrs ago and even today, the fractures running in the Spanish societies are very deep and no different from the islamophobia in India ( just change the words 'muslim' and 'india' with 'basque' and 'spain' and you get a more hardcore version of social divide in Spain). No, it comes from a sense of personal responsibility towards society. Not having chest-thumpers who go declare how Indian they are or how much hindu they are at the drop of a hat & ultimately do nothing more than being idiotic armchair critics. I am not against armchair critics per se but when you have a society like India, where everyone is an armchair critic and nobody has the integrity or balls to do something about it, we definitely have a problem. A society as divided as India, we can't have the same set of laws applied to all the people. There are sects of people fighting over who is more backward. We see politicians who want to reserve jobs to different backward religions, castes etc just to garner more votes. I feel, If we were bound by more commonalities, we wouldn't have seen these problems. I feel most of the problems India is facing because of it's diversity. Unity in Diversity....total Bakwaas philosophy.
varun Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 *thread hi-jacked* Not really, still relevant I believe (and interesting too)
Gaurav Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Gaurav' date=' i suggest you do not address me in such infantile manner- it contributes NOTHING to the discussion and only shows your petulance.[/quote'] Itna tension mat kar....stomach ulcer ho jayega :D Bongo could you summarize in three lines what Ambani should do with his wealth?
yoda Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Itna tension mat kar....stomach ulcer ho jayega :D Bongo could you summarize in three lines what Ambani should do with his wealth? Line1: Give 1/3 to Bongo. :D
Bongosamaj Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 Itna tension mat kar....stomach ulcer ho jayega :D Bongo could you summarize in three lines what Ambani should do with his wealth? He'd do well in my eyes to donate a significant amount as scholarships for the poor students in Indian university system.
Bongosamaj Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 I feel most of the problems India is facing because of it's diversity. Unity in Diversity....total Bakwaas philosophy. Sorry but i see the above as total bakwaas. Unity in diversity is not a bakwaas philosophy- it is one of the few good points about mankind. Furthermore, it has ALWAYS been the hallmark of our civilization- even when we were the top dogs of the world. From as far back as Indian history as we can trace so far, hindus, buddhists, jains & atheists have lived with each other in peace, we've sheltered the persecuted through the ages and of that i am really proud. Unity in diversity is one of the biggest reasons why our contribution to mankind is not comparable to just any other nations but for the most part, comparable to entire CONTINENTS. Several of our top emperors & empires- Guptas & Mauryas for example- were the hallmark of unity in diversity. But the problem is, India today is an ignorant society, with serious flaws in our education system. The IIT-an knows a lot about their field of expertese but know next to nothing on our culture, our history and PHILOSOPHY. We have the hinduvta idiots, who are the biggest bunch of under-educated people as far as Indian culture and history goes. And a society as ignorant as India's cannot form a working nation. You either get rampant corruption and direction-less retardation as our India currently or you end up with a totalitarian despotic regime like China or Nazi Germany. Multiculturalism & diversity is the single biggest reason why the society of west is flourishing and has been flourishing for the last 30-40 years. No surprize that it coincides almost exactly with cultural revolution in the west where they adopted our age-old 'unity in diversity' mantra. No, unity in diversity is the single best thing about Indian culture. But its not going to work (nothing is going to work) if the culture is as ignorant as India's. We are not a cultured nation- we are a nation with a lot of leftover culture from our golden age period. There is a subtle but monumental difference. And given a choice, i'd much rather have the corrupt-directionless nation like India over a totalitarian effiiciency nation like China or Nazi Germany. Simply because corruption is far easier to root out than idiotic single-mindedness anti-diversity viewpoint that is the common link between all the idiots in the world- from muslim fundies to our hinduvta retards to white superiorists in these parts of the world. Because while corruption is a matter of artha (material posessions) of a nation, the 'one philosophy' stream is the cancer of the soul. Artha can change ( become plentiful or dry up) from a generation-to-generation basis. But idiocy such as the one-philosophy ' no diversity, lets all have unity on one agenda' is the kind of nonsense that persists for thousands of years.
Bongosamaj Posted October 29, 2007 Posted October 29, 2007 How do you know he doesnt? I dont! I never said he doesnt do it! Someone asked me what i thought he should do and i said so. If he already does so, well good on the man! My fight is not with Ambani or other super-rich who earnt their money, mostly through 'straight' means. My fight is with the system that CREATES Ambanis and TATAs in a land of 100s of millions of super-poor.
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