IPL is Useless

[Ultimate_Game]

Hopefully IPL will throw up fast bowling allrounders and good middle and lower order hitters. We need them ASAP and can't expect to be competitive with 5 bowlers who can't contribute much with the bat when teams like Aussies have no tail to speak of. Time has moved on and i don't think we can afford to have more than 2 bunnies with the bat in the team.

[youngindia]

Two or three players with 20 average will provide 50-60 runs on average. ."

too optimistic in my view ..I don't have the time to crunch actual data.... but this is what I found... vettori has crossed 20 in 32 inns of 294 matches southee crossed 15 in 7 inns of 93 matches as you can see very irregular to say the least ofcourse one can speculate at times they may have helped a specialist batsman...but the primary factor remains the ability and form of the specialist in this case..as you can the frequency is very highly irregular in any case In all the KO's I remember, only one time in 40 yrs of WC, there was a no 8 gary Gilmour who really helped a crucial chase. while batting first, there are a few more cases like reeve 1992 and bichel 2003 but the thing is Gilmour and reeve are allrounders with FC averages of 30+...reeve is an exception anyway since he won't qualify as a genuine bowler..bichel has a 26 FC average do you want rely on a frequency of one successful chase in 40 years and they involved 30 avg allrounder anyway ? nz lost by 9 runs in the 1979 semis despite having lance cairns at no 9... in 1987 semis, india needed 50+ from the last 10 overs and the order included prabhakar,more,shastri,chetan sharma by theory they shud have aced it...but in practice they floundered defreitas launched a desperate assault in the 1987 final but was beaten by steve Waugh in 1999 semis, Pollock and boucher should have got those 30 runs...but they were up against McGrath and warne.. in 1996, windies collapsed when needing only around 40 runs and lost by 1 run...arthurton was no 8 in 2003 wc semis, SL had Arnold at no 8 and vaas at n9...unable to chase 212 the percentages are very poor when it comes to KO's and I suspect in general as well rarely has a no 8 or 9 decisively swung a KO ever

. Dhoni himself admitted India's lower order weakness today and said other good teams have more batting depth.

we have some natural tendencies. many people don't trust and fear a stranger but actual stats say majority of severe crimes are most likely to be committed by someone the victim knew these opinions are formed more because its in their comfort zone than to actual evidence

[Ultimate_Game]

too optimistic in my view ..I don't have the time to crunch actual data.... but this is what I found... vettori has crossed 20 in 32 inns of 294 matches southee crossed 15 in 7 inns of 93 matches as you can see very irregular to say the least ofcourse one can speculate at times they may have helped a specialist batsman...but the primary factor remains the ability and form of the specialist in this case..as you can the frequency is very highly irregular in any case In all the KO's I remember, only one time in 40 yrs of WC, there was a no 8 gary Gilmour who really helped a crucial chase. while batting first, there are a few more cases like reeve 1992 and bichel 2003 but the thing is Gilmour and reeve are allrounders with FC averages of 30+...reeve is an exception anyway since he won't qualify as a genuine bowler..bichel has a 26 FC average do you want rely on a frequency of one successful chase in 40 years and they involved 30 avg allrounder anyway ? nz lost by 9 runs in the 1979 semis despite having lance cairns at no 9... in 1987 semis, india needed 50+ from the last 10 overs and the order included prabhakar,more,shastri,chetan sharma by theory they shud have aced it...but in practice they floundered defreitas launched a desperate assault in the 1987 final but was beaten by steve Waugh in 1999 semis, Pollock and boucher should have got those 30 runs...but they were up against McGrath and warne.. in 1996, windies collapsed when needing only around 40 runs and lost by 1 run...arthurton was no 8 in 2003 wc semis, SL had Arnold at no 8 and vaas at n9...unable to chase 212 the percentages are very poor when it comes to KO's and I suspect in general as well rarely has a no 8 or 9 decisively swung a KO ever we have some natural tendencies. many people don't trust and fear a stranger but actual stats say majority of severe crimes are most likely to be committed by someone the victim knew these opinions are formed more because its in their comfort zone than to actual evidence

I think you are taking a simplistic view of batting depth and the value a competent lower order brings to the table. Yes, it's unlikely your nos. 8 or 9 will win you lots of games with the bat but they help relieve some of the pressure from top and middle order batsmen as the batsmen know they have capable lower order if needed. That's the reason India has generally done well with a 7-4 formula in shorter formats as the 7th batsman allowed the top and middle order to play freely knowing that they have an extra batsman. Conversely if you play with say 5 batsmen, there would be too much pressure on the batsmen as they know they HAVE to succeed for the team to win and even if a couple have an off day they are more likely to lose. No stats will show how much having batting depth helps the other specialist batsmen and how it allows others to play with relative freedom. Plus more batting depth help you get a few extra runs to put the game beyond your opponents. Take yesterday's game for example. It was Johnson's 28 off 9 deliveries which took the game away from India's grasp. If Aussies had a similar batting depth to India's they would have barely reached 300 and India would have been in business.

[Vilander]

We don't have many power hitters . blame it on genes' date= diet etc but its the bitter truth.Most of Indian players looked mal nourished

lol where are you from

[nballa]

When we win matches it's because ipl taught players how to deal with 'plessule cookul cituations'. When we lose ipl is useless. Which one is it?

[Params7]

IPL is no training ground, just a money making festival.

[jonas10]

How is ipl useless based on an odi semifinals? If you want to link ipl and performance loon at Indias t20 performance. This team would be t20 champions if not for a selfish innings by yuvraj. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Debutant]

Decades of Ranji could not give a proper fast bowler to India. Ranji must be rubbish too. IPL is not there to produce good players. Its the other way round. You need good performance to be worthy of playing in IPL. Stop whining about IPL the moment India loses.

[rkt.india]

First fix top 7, worry about 8, 9, 10 later. When did we have a great lower order anyway. Our top 7 is not really top class right now. Dhoni struggling, Rahane struggling, Jaddu strugling, Raina sitting duck against pace. How were we going to chase that score too dependent on top 3 to score 100s. Top 3 bailed us out match after match last year in bilateral series at home. In India, it can happen, but not in Aus. We need to fix 4, 5, 6, 7 first. Apart from Raina, none these 4 look part, atm. Dhoni has past it.

[Marut]

Decades of Ranji could not give a proper fast bowler to India. Ranji must be rubbish too. IPL is not there to produce good players. Its the other way round. You need good performance to be worthy of playing in IPL. Stop whining about IPL the moment India loses.

IPL is a T20 tournament. By definition, it is a tournament of hitters. Even though we had played seven years of IPL, we don't have hitters good enough to represent India. So there is definitely something wrong with the IPL (it could be a low quality tournament so the hitters there are good only at that level) or something wrong with the way we pick players for the team. If Jadeja and Ashwin are our lower order hitters, then something is wrong somewhere. Where are our equivalents of Maxwell, Faulkner, Russell, Corey, Ronchi, Holder etc - all of whom are capable of batting with a S/R of 200 at the death? A country crazy about T20 cricket cannot find lower order players who can whack the ball out of the ground. India has the least death batting strength among all top teams and this is undeniable.

[Debutant]

IPL is a T20 tournament. By definition, it is a tournament of hitters. Even though we had played seven years of IPL, we don't have hitters good enough to represent India. So there is definitely something wrong with the IPL (it could be a low quality tournament so the hitters there are good only at that level) or something wrong with the way we pick players for the team. If Jadeja and Ashwin are our lower order hitters, then something is wrong somewhere. Where are our equivalents of Maxwell, Faulkner, Russell, Corey, Ronchi, Holder etc - all of whom are capable of batting with a S/R of 200 at the death? A country crazy about T20 cricket cannot find lower order players who can whack the ball out of the ground. India has the least death batting strength among all top teams and this is undeniable.

Don't bowlers bowl in Ranji matches. Don't they try to wickets. Then why was it not able to produce one proper fast bowler. It must be lacking quality. It must be useless. Why not stop it ??

[youngindia]

I think you are taking a simplistic view of batting depth and the value a competent lower order brings to the table. Yes it's unlikely your nos. 8 or 9 will win you lots of games with the bat but they help relieve some of the pressure from top and middle order batsmen as the batsmen know they have capable lower order if needed.

The so called value is only in the imagination my point is precisely you cannot expect (8,9) with 17 or less averages to contribute when needed ...you are not proceeding to step 2,stuck in step 1 let me put it to you expcting top 7 with 30+ averages to succeed on a given day (few scoring 70's and 100's and few scoring 20-40) is realistic on a given day expecting (8,9) with 17 averages to succeed on a given day is a highly random event outside your control ...not to mention a scenario has to arise where they can contribute effectively which makes it even more random your comment "capable lower order if needed." is baseless..it happens in a highly random manner

Conversely if you play with say 5 batsmen, there would be too much pressure on the batsmen as they know they HAVE to succeed for the team to win and even if a couple have an off day they are more likely to lose.

who talked about 5 batsmen? the top7 should take responsibility for winning the match. period what other choice do they have? no 8 and no 9 are a lottery at best

No stats will show how much having batting depth helps the other specialist batsmen and how it allows others to play with relative freedom. Plus more batting depth help you get a few extra runs to put the game beyond your opponents.

A strong top 7 is enough to give freedom to the batsmen. you think kohli or rohit are not aware that a no 8 cannot be depended upon? I doubt that any decent batsmen is the world is so stupid a shaky no 6 or no 7 may cause a concern....but the fact of the matter jadeja's poor form didn't cost one match "a few extra runs to put the game beyond your opponents" is a very random event...same mistake again

Take yesterday's game for example. It was Johnson's 28 off 9 deliveries which took the game away from India's grasp. If Aussies had a similar batting depth to India's they would have barely reached 300 and India would have been in business.

i am sick of erroneous conclusions based on one match or random samples.the next time this may happen after 20 years! it has to be a regular pattern and atleast a sizeable percentage to matter Even if I am to accept hypothetically that Johnson's knock was a changer, the instances are too few in entire history of ODI KO's shows they are far and few in between to matter.. for a chase its almost nonexistent one has to ask why Johnson (who crossed 20 runs in 18 inns of 152 matches) has crossed 20 4 times vs india

Where are our equivalents of Maxwell, Faulkner, Russell, Corey, Ronchi, Holder etc - all of whom are capable of batting with a S/R of 200 at the death?

mixing things...Maxwell and corey do not play at 7 only holder can be compared to ashwin but holder may move to no 7 its reasonable to expect jadeja to move at a 100+ strike rate..he started showing maturity in shots only last year in nz and then has been in bad nick in the last season...but he can grow and strike better ashwin does have a good strike rate 87 even though he does not strike too many sixes you can say he will find it difficult to get 15 in an over vs good bowlers(which jadeja can) but then he crosses 15 more no of times and contributes better than many other no 8's he was not striking the ball well due to poor form do not forget ashwin and jadeja were doing well in nz last year but this season they have been in bad patch. recent memories should not cloud what's long term.

[youngindia]

I think you are taking a simplistic view of batting depth and the value a competent lower order brings to the table. Yes it's unlikely your nos. 8 or 9 will win you lots of games with the bat but they help relieve some of the pressure from top and middle order batsmen as the batsmen know they have capable lower order if needed.

The so called value is only in the imagination my point is precisely you cannot expect (8,9) with 17 or less averages to contribute when needed ...you are not proceeding to step 2,stuck in step 1 let me put it to you expcting top 7 with 30+ averages to succeed on a given day (few scoring 70's and 100's and few scoring 20-40) is realistic on a given day expecting (8,9) with 17 averages to succeed on a given day is a highly random event outside your control ...not to mention a scenario has to arise where they can contribute effectively which makes it even more random your comment "capable lower order if needed." is baseless..it happens in a highly random manner

Conversely if you play with say 5 batsmen, there would be too much pressure on the batsmen as they know they HAVE to succeed for the team to win and even if a couple have an off day they are more likely to lose.

who talked about 5 batsmen? the top7 should take responsibility for winning the match. period what other choice do they have? no 8 and no 9 are a lottery at best

No stats will show how much having batting depth helps the other specialist batsmen and how it allows others to play with relative freedom. Plus more batting depth help you get a few extra runs to put the game beyond your opponents.

A strong top 7 is enough to give freedom to the batsmen. you think kohli or rohit are not aware that a no 8 cannot be depended upon? I doubt that any decent batsmen is the world is so stupid a shaky no 6 or no 7 may cause a concern....but the fact of the matter jadeja's poor form didn't cost one match "a few extra runs to put the game beyond your opponents" is a very random event...same mistake again

Take yesterday's game for example. It was Johnson's 28 off 9 deliveries which took the game away from India's grasp. If Aussies had a similar batting depth to India's they would have barely reached 300 and India would have been in business.

i am sick of erroneous conclusions based on one match or random samples.the next time this may happen after 20 years! it has to be a regular pattern and atleast a sizeable percentage to matter Even if I am to accept hypothetically that Johnson's knock was a changer, the instances are too few..In the entire history of ODI KO's, they are far and few in between to matter.. for a chase its almost nonexistent one has to ask why Johnson (who crossed 20 runs in 18 inns of 152 matches) has crossed 20 4 times vs india

Where are our equivalents of Maxwell, Faulkner, Russell, Corey, Ronchi, Holder etc - all of whom are capable of batting with a S/R of 200 at the death?

mixing things...Maxwell and corey do not play at 7 only holder can be compared to ashwin but holder may move to no 7 its reasonable to expect jadeja to move at a 100+ strike rate..he started showing maturity in shots only last year in nz and then has been in bad nick in the last season...but he can grow and strike better ashwin does have a good strike rate 87 even though he does not strike too many sixes you can say he will find it difficult to get 15 in an over vs good bowlers(which jadeja can) but then he crosses 15 more no of times and contributes better than many other no 8's he was not striking the ball well due to poor form do not forget ashwin and jadeja were doing well in nz last year but this season they have been in bad patch. recent memories should not cloud what's long term.

[Vicky95]

No point in blaming the IPL. We were beaten by the favorites, any other team and we'd have been in the finals.