moniker Posted April 11, 2015 Posted April 11, 2015 I understand the issue of asking the customers to pay for making VoIP calls. But partnering with certain apps like Netflix in the US and Flipkart in India doesn't hit the wallets of the consumers, it's the partner apps that pay the ISPs. So why is it so important for allowing all kinds of net traffic to be treated equally? Are there any compelling reasons?
Sachin=GOD Posted April 11, 2015 Author Posted April 11, 2015 I understand the issue of asking the customers to pay for making VoIP calls. But partnering with certain apps like Netflix in the US and Flipkart in India doesn't hit the wallets of the consumers' date=' it's the partner apps that pay the ISPs. So why is it so important for allowing all kinds of net traffic to be treated equally? Are there any compelling reasons?[/quote'] AFAIK spectrum is a national resource so when telecom operators get it, they are supposed to offer their services without any discrimination.
moniker Posted April 11, 2015 Posted April 11, 2015 ^ Let's say a telco provides facebook for free to the customers, for which they get money from facebook. The only entities they are discriminating against are the competitors of facebook, not the general public. Spectrum belongs to the general public. So what's the issue here? As long as the consumers are not asked to pay an extra fee for faster access to say Netflix, and it is netflix who compensate for this, it shouldn't really be that much of a problem as is being portrayed.
Old guy Posted April 11, 2015 Posted April 11, 2015 ^ Let's say a telco provides facebook for free to the customers, for which they get money from facebook. The only entities they are discriminating against are the competitors of facebook, not the general public. Spectrum belongs to the general public. So what's the issue here? As long as the consumers are not asked to pay an extra fee for faster access to say Netflix, and it is netflix who compensate for this, it shouldn't really be that much of a problem as is being portrayed. Why should discrimination like happen ? In the end you will end up selling internet which was made to be open and equal to these corporations . Even in USA Netflix was asked to pay not normal consumers but in the end truth is big companies will pay and it won't hurt them like YouTube can very well pay but it will only destroy competition and maybe in short term we get some free stuff but in long term it will destroy the way Internet works which is so great today because there is no discrimination . You can create website and it will get equal preference to site owned by Google which is one of largest company in world . Also truth is we will not get more speed or anything special they will decrease speed for everything else (throttling ) this is good excuse for companies to stop investing in infrastructure to improve Internet and make these types of deal which will screw us in long run . Last year airtel was going to make VoIP calls different from normal Internet so you will have your normal netpack on top of it different net pack for VoIP and different for anything companies feel like . First it will VoIP then chat services like whatsapp and people will say majority only use it so why not make it cheap for them ? Then another thing and in the end we will end up paying for them all while actual Internet infrastructure stays same so telecom companies make easy money and these huge companies get monopoly over Internet like Facebook or Google l
Old guy Posted April 11, 2015 Posted April 11, 2015 Also how can we even allow discrimination ? I won't even get into this debate as you seem to be okay with Facebook competitors getting discriminated but just look at this way right now you get Internet and you are able to use it on anything but these companies do not want that and want you to use it on people which pay them and for everything else will provide either more expensive service or substandard experience . Edit .. One last thing do you like this site ? Sites like this will get screwed the most and are only possible for these small forums and sites to stay alive because of open nature of Internet where every bit of data is given same priority . Is this site competitor of Facebook ?
moniker Posted April 11, 2015 Posted April 11, 2015 Why should discrimination like happen ? In the end you will end up selling internet which was made to be open and equal to these corporations . Even in USA Netflix was asked to pay not normal consumers but in the end truth is big companies will pay and it won't hurt them like YouTube can very well pay but it will only destroy competition and maybe in short term we get some free stuff but in long term it will destroy the way Internet works which is so great today because there is no discrimination . I am not condoning any form of discrimination. What I don't get is the outrage among netizens who are not the ones being discriminated against. If anything it should be the startups or those relatively new to the market like wechat who should be up in arms against their big competitors and try to enforce net neutrality. But it is the general public who are the most vocal about this, and I suspect that is because they fear they might have to pay extra for some services which might not necessarily be the case. Also truth is we will not get more speed or anything special they will decrease speed for everything else (throttling ) this is good excuse for companies to stop investing in infrastructure to improve Internet and make these types of deal which will screw us in long run . Let's say some video service like Netflix makes a deal with a telco. To stream 1080p videos with high bitrates I am assuming you will at least need a 25 Mbps connection. Let's say other websites are throttled down to 4 Mbps. You will still need the infrastructure to provide the high quality video stream. You as a customer are still only going to pay for a 4 Mbps connection, as the video service will compensate the telco. If you want some other video service buy a 25 Mbps connection. How exactly do these deals screw us in the long run? Last year airtel was going to make VoIP calls different from normal Internet so you will have your normal netpack on top of it different net pack for VoIP and different for anything companies feel like . First it will VoIP then chat services like whatsapp and people will say majority only use it so why not make it cheap for them ? Then another thing and in the end we will end up paying for them all while actual Internet infrastructure stays same so telecom companies make easy money and these huge companies get monopoly over Internet like Facebook or Google l Having different packs for VoIP that are more expensive than the regular data packs would affect the public, yes and I get the backlash that airtel received. But if services popular among the general public are cheaper then how that could lead to the infrastructure getting stagnant? Also how can we even allow discrimination ? I won't even get into this debate as you seem to be okay with Facebook competitors getting discriminated but just look at this way right now you get Internet and you are able to use it on anything but these companies do not want that and want you to use it on people which pay them and for everything else will provide either more expensive service or substandard experience . How? You get more than what you pay for if you choose to use the apps subsidized by the telcos. You get exactly what you pay for if you use some other app. One last thing do you like this site ? Sites like this will get screwed the most and are only possible for these small forums and sites to stay alive because of open nature of Internet where every bit of data is given same priority . Is this site competitor of Facebook ? Yes, this site might get screwed if some telco offers some other cricket fan forum for free or at a lesser price. If I like that site and I like the deal I will move on to that site. If I think being cheaper does not compensate the rich experience of debating on ICF I will stick to using ICF and will pay for it, which is the same as what I am paying now. I as a consumer am not impacted in any way. If the small forums are good enough they will survive.
Old guy Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 I am not condoning any form of discrimination. What I don't get is the outrage among netizens who are not the ones being discriminated against. If anything it should be the startups or those relatively new to the market like wechat who should be up in arms against their big competitors and try to enforce net neutrality. But it is the general public who are the most vocal about this, and I suspect that is because they fear they might have to pay extra for some services which might not necessarily be the case. Let's say some video service like Netflix makes a deal with a telco. To stream 1080p videos with high bitrates I am assuming you will at least need a 25 Mbps connection. Let's say other websites are throttled down to 4 Mbps. You will still need the infrastructure to provide the high quality video stream. You as a customer are still only going to pay for a 4 Mbps connection, as the video service will compensate the telco. If you want some other video service buy a 25 Mbps connection. How exactly do these deals screw us in the long run? Having different packs for VoIP that are more expensive than the regular data packs would affect the public, yes and I get the backlash that airtel received. But if services popular among the general public are cheaper then how that could lead to the infrastructure getting stagnant? How? You get more than what you pay for if you choose to use the apps subsidized by the telcos. You get exactly what you pay for if you use some other app. Yes, this site might get screwed if some telco offers some other cricket fan forum for free or at a lesser price. If I like that site and I like the deal I will move on to that site. If I think being cheaper does not compensate the rich experience of debating on ICF I will stick to using ICF and will pay for it, which is the same as what I am paying now. I as a consumer am not impacted in any way. If the small forums are good enough they will survive. I am on iPad so cannot replay bit by bit so sorry in advance First point about example you gave about Netflix This is not what is happening and people need to understand. They are not giving you more speed to increasing infrastructure and providing you with more speed for specific website they are just not throttling it . Just see video I posted in this thread to explain this point only . Almost all connections have limit so why to telecom companies care when I pay for 200 gb of high speed data where I use it ? In USA you have limit of 300 gb on mainstream connections and after that throttle anyway but problem is they say even before 300 gb they are going to throttle stuff unless companies decide to pay. On fiber connection Netflix slowed down and u need 8 me of good connection to see in hd not 25 but people with even 50 mb were suffering . Now again VoIP why should I buy different Internet for different stuff ? I buy 2 gb each month it's my wish where I use that data ..i want to use it on VoIP or YouTube it's my wish it does not cost them any differently as in the end I use 2 gb only ..who are they to tell me where I can use it and where I can not ? If I put petrol in my car who are they to tell me that I can only use that petrol in city and not on highway ? You see how absurd it is? And you ask me how it stangant the industry ?their excuse is that they don't have bandwidth so instead of upgrading the infrastructure they decide to throttle all the internet and slow speed down unless some company pays to increase speed . Their logic is we can only provide 4 mb speed so let's throttle everything at current level to that we do not have to upgrade infrastructure to support hd video or VoIP in case of mobile . You don't see how it works ? There is a reason even in USA they voted for it and I think you need to understand how Internet actually works and what these companies are saying and how absurd it is . Now you give example of Icf ...so in the end u want Internet where only few rich guys have monopoly ? There won't be any new site or better site there will huge barrier of entry to new people new content which IMO is beauty of Internet that everyone has equal chance . You won't find new Icf because it will never be feasible there will be no new site just big companies with deep pockets eliminating competition .. You need to understand telecom industry is nobody to decide which data gets through or which gets priority and if they cannot make infrastructure which allows all data to get through they should not get into this business . There is video i posted it will explain it better but Internet is like pipes and data flows through what this companies are promising the bigger pipes for people who pay so people get better speeds but technically what is happening is pipe is of same size but they are stopping everyone else who does not pay.
Old guy Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 This is my last try at explaining and it's hard for me on iPad but I will try . You know currently YouTube is changing its policies and screwing people who upload stuff so some people are jumping onto vessel. Now in today's world if vessel is better it will get popular and videos will play in same way like they for YouTube ...airtel cannot tell me I cannot watch vessel in hd but I can watch YouTube in hd because Google chose to pay them . Ok now last part about popular services being cheaper ...that is not gonna happen what is going to happen is same like VoIP they will make regular pack slightly cheaper but will have seperate pack for VoIP ,seperate pack for YouTube etc in the end it's same myth these companies use tried to spread with Netflix that you will get more speed when in reality they were artificially reducing speed and just resetting it to normal . Same here they are just trying to screw consumers by lying that different data should cost different when in reality it all costs same and it's none of their business to even care where I use my data when I pay for it .if they care so much about general public they should improve their service instead of trying to fool masses into subscribing into 20 different packs when in reality they all are same to them. You might now think why I gave YouTube example ? ..I want to give current example to fact that data is data ...there is no YouTube data or vessel data and same way no what's app data or iMessage data .. It's fair system if YouTube screws there is substitute in world today...there won't be in system they want so it's literally screwing with Internet in way it works .
Old guy Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 Also I have big problem with Facebook and other companies saying they are providing free internet or goal is to spread Internet ...nope. Goal is to spread their website and nothing more they provide free Facebook not free internet and they actually want a world where Facebook is one thing,whatsapp is another ,YouTube another and people pay for everything ..now I will urge you to see how Internet actually works and tell me that you are not offended ? Let's have different petrol for highway,city and different petrol if you are on 200 km journey or 10 km ..yeah really stupid analogy but it makes me sad that actual situation is just as stupid . Sorry for different posts but on iPad I have lost posts before as tab reloaded so I try to keep it short .
Sachin=GOD Posted April 12, 2015 Author Posted April 12, 2015 ^ Let's say a telco provides facebook for free to the customers, for which they get money from facebook. The only entities they are discriminating against are the competitors of facebook, not the general public. Spectrum belongs to the general public. So what's the issue here? As long as the consumers are not asked to pay an extra fee for faster access to say Netflix, and it is netflix who compensate for this, it shouldn't really be that much of a problem as is being portrayed. Here's what will actually happen when telcoos provide Facebook for free - they will reduce the speed for other sites (maybe for its competitors) thus Facebook will seem faster to you while its competitors will suffer (this will especially effect ecommerce sites because today everyone is in a hurry so if Airtel has a pact with Flipkart & you try to open Amazon and its taking more time, you will probably not wait - you'll just go to flipkart) or you will be asked to buy special internet packs to access some other sites while getting Facebook free. Then there are things like VoIP calls and free messaging services (WhatsApp, Skype, Viber etc) - irrespective of what companies say openly, almost every single company wants users to pay extra for these services as these are replacing the core functions of the phone. Airtel already planned to charge more for WhatsApp/Skype etc but canceled the plan when news of this upcoming TRAI paper on Net Neutrality came out.
moniker Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 I am on iPad so cannot replay bit by bit so sorry in advance They are not giving you more speed to increasing infrastructure and providing you with more speed for specific website they are just not throttling it . Just see video I posted in this thread to explain this point only . I understand what you are trying to say. I am not saying that speed for a specific website is suddenly going to increase. Of course, the consumer must not suffer due to the throttling of the website because the website refused to pay. I know the Netflix-Comcast situation and I do not want that to happen. Let's say the un-throttled connection speed is 8 Mbps. Now they want to provide Youtube at 8 Mbps and throttle all other websites down to 4 Mbps. My question is will they be dumb enough to still charge the same amount? I'd expect the data prices to be slashed by half. Almost all connections have limit so why to telecom companies care when I pay for 200 gb of high speed data where I use it ? In USA you have limit of 300 gb on mainstream connections and after that throttle anyway but problem is they say even before 300 gb they are going to throttle stuff unless companies decide to pay. Yes I don't agree with this, if the consumers are paying the same as before but suddenly get throttled even before 300 GB I don't support it. Now again VoIP why should I buy different Internet for different stuff ? I buy 2 gb each month it's my wish where I use that data ..i want to use it on VoIP or YouTube it's my wish it does not cost them any differently as in the end I use 2 gb only ..who are they to tell me where I can use it and where I can not ? Again if they are ok to reduce the prices of the regular data plan after taking away VoIP I don't see any problem. If the cost of the regular data plan is going to remain the same that's of course a problem. If I put petrol in my car who are they to tell me that I can only use that petrol in city and not on highway ? You see how absurd it is? If they provide me cheaper petrol to drive in the city it is up to me to take a call whether to buy the petrol or not. If I think that won't work for me I can always choose the option of buying the petrol that can be used to drive everywhere, provided the price was the same as before this new arrangement. Now you give example of Icf ...so in the end u want Internet where only few rich guys have monopoly ? There won't be any new site or better site there will huge barrier of entry to new people new content which IMO is beauty of Internet that everyone has equal chance . Rich guy's website can be browsed for free. New guy's website is browsed at the same price as is being browsed right now. Entry of new guy has not been made difficult, it is the same as before. It is just that access to rich guy has been made cheaper. You know currently YouTube is changing its policies and screwing people who upload stuff so some people are jumping onto vessel. Now in today's world if vessel is better it will get popular and videos will play in same way like they for YouTube ...airtel cannot tell me I cannot watch vessel in hd but I can watch YouTube in hd because Google chose to pay them . I don't think airtel will tell you that you cannot watch vessel in hd. You can watch vessel in hd by paying the same as what you are paying today. But you can watch youtube for free because youtube will compensate airtel. Ok now last part about popular services being cheaper ...that is not gonna happen what is going to happen is same like VoIP they will make regular pack slightly cheaper but will have seperate pack for VoIP ,seperate pack for YouTube etc in the end it's same myth these companies use tried to spread with Netflix that you will get more speed when in reality they were artificially reducing speed and just resetting it to normal . I get what airtel tried to do with VoIP and I have clearly mentioned that is not what I want to happen. It is not black and white. There are some violations of net neutrality that could benefit the customers, some that could be used to swindle them. I don't mind stuff like airtel zero because I'm paying the same and I get some specific websites for free. But I do mind having different packs for VoIP and data and having to end up paying more than what I am currently paying for data.
Old guy Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 See I honestly am busy and cannot reply in full but I honestly do understand what you are saying but just remember prices will never be reduced you will end up paying mor wine nd but they will just try to fool divide Internet into many parts . In the end with VoIP price never dropped and int he end you paid more and like I said throttling is what's happening even now and what they are planning to do as like I explained with pipes example there is no more speed what they are going to do is allow some websites who pay to have same speed they have now while reducing speed of everything else ...this is what happened with Netflix . Netflix did not pay so that people with cheap connection get to watch it they paid so that people who should be able to watch it in first place get to watch it . Same way bandwidth is still same here there's no more bandwidth here and this means they are going to favour one and I can promise you that you will in the pay more just like VoIP and I honestly do not support rich guy getting monopoly over Internet I am totally against it but I understand if your views are different but I honestly feel angry that we will try to have system which will kill the best thing about Internet . Also you need to understand they are going to give you anything for free as in the end infrastructure is same and bandwidth they have is same ..like I said they are promising you more Internet speed but in reality are artificially going to reduce speed for everything to push sites which pay them. Just see the video I posted
Old guy Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 Btw VoIP is example is what is going to happen if we allow them . In the end you will always pay more if you allow corporation to manipulate things which they have no right to. I am giving you example of company in India maybe biggest private telecom company who tried to screw everyone with VoIP and this trai is now passing law which will make them,legal to do it . On what basis in future will we stop them in future ? Companies will never screw you at start in schemes like this but anyone hint of common sense will know that if you will allow companies to screw things up for profit and make it legal they will every time and this is why we have laws to protect people . Sure at start it's not gonna cost you more but are you seriously suggesting that airtel will not try that VoIP pack again if allowed ? And is that VoIP exactly like extra packs for Facebook,whatsapp ,YouTube ? Was cost down when they tried that VoIP thing? Nope you paid more and reason is current system is fair it treats technology in way it behaves in real life but these idiots for more profit and false promise are messing with something they have no idea about how it even works and I can assure you with different packs for different things you will always pay more ..always. Simple question why did price did not go down with VoIP scheme ? Or with Netflix playing in usa? Just see video I posted or any other link in this thread and u will get issue I have . You do not understand what role of isp is in you browsing Internet and I feel it offending that they even care where I use my data ..this is as black and white it gets they are going to create artificial reduction in speed in hope of selling you packs to things like Facebook which will in the end restore speeds to normal ...you will pay more and Europe and rest of world who has clue made it illegal to do this for good reason when Internet started to get popular . Now this all was Internet part just imagine it's implication in real world and how many business will be screwed .. Want to browse Amazon instead of flip kart ? You can't . Just remember there won't be any new flip kart int his system ever again only current people who got big securing their place and I am sure you know how it ends. Just use your imagination in this case or what sachin=God posted..that is one example and it's gonna happen everywhere and at every part of Internet .
Tiger80 Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 To digress a bit' date=' What is the fastest internet speed available in India?[/quote'] Fastest speed available with my ISP (triple play) 100mbps and price is 17000 per month fully unlimited
coffee_rules Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 17000 that is almost $300. Is that correct? Must be 1700 pm.
Sachin=GOD Posted April 13, 2015 Author Posted April 13, 2015 17000 that is almost $300. Is that correct? Must be 1700 pm. No. Its 17000 for really, really high speed.
FischerTal Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 inzamam runs faster than india's internet speed :phehehe:
Tiger80 Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 17000 that is almost $300. Is that correct? Must be 1700 pm. its 17 thousand
Sachin=GOD Posted April 13, 2015 Author Posted April 13, 2015 More than 3 Lac emails sent to TRAI. I'm 100% certain that Net Neutrality will be maintained in India. Telecom Minister Ravi Shankar Prasad is already in its favor so I doubt telecom companies or TRAI can crew around with customers or spring a surprise at the last moment.
kubrickian Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Fastest speed available with my ISP (triple play) 100mbps and price is 17000 per month fully unlimited That's ridiculous. 50 Mbps is available for Rs.2500.
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