jalebi_bhai Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Nope. More of a problem in villages than in cities; a noteworthy issue in cities too. To what extent? Regionalism is more of a problem in cities from my experience.
jalebi_bhai Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 :hysterical: Oye spin doctor, let's embark on a debate shall we?
amiret Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Millennia from now , when the Alien priestly class/Brahmins resurrect this thread to study the apex of human civlization , they shall recognize that Amiret's Sattvic smiley was an appropriate and complete response to all Rajasic & Tamasaic debates.
moniker Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 I've tried looking into history to see exactly when the system got corrupted. Started of as a system to ensure division of labor in society on the basis of skill. The corruption happened when Hindus failed to take a united stand when up against both European and Muslim invaders. So technically, it's our own fault. I think the discrimination was already existing in the society, the invaders made good use of it to divide the society further along caste based lines to fulfill their interests. The system probably started getting corrupted for these reasons: - It was convenient to let jobs be hereditary. People could've switched to a different varna if they'd wanted to during the Vedic times ( I believe so), but it made more sense to continue doing what their fathers did and learn the job from them. - People taking up jobs related to manual labour weren't regarded as highly as the scholars (priests) or the warriors. And as they were grouped into divisions based on their jobs some divisions started being looked down upon. - Come the medieval period the society had become completely segregated and the purpose of divisions in the society based on line of work got completely messed up, the divisions were all hereditary now irrespective of what job each person had taken up and the discrimination against certain divisions set in and got stronger roots.
jalebi_bhai Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Millennia from now , when the Alien priestly class/Brahmins resurrect this thread to study the apex of human civlization , they shall recognize that Amiret's Sattvic smiley was an appropriate and complete response to all Rajasic & Tamasaic debates. Oye chachu, instead of typing unadulterated trash, why not indulge in a constructive debate?
Invasion 550 Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 There won't be much problems in city since families are educated mostly and only in rare problem happens when they don't accept the marriage due to caste.. Just like in movies..Both the girl and boy runs away and get married...finally gets accepted into family :haha: Even if the parents are okay with it and they are scared what others and relatives will think about it :wall: That mentality should change :giggle: Happens during 10th and 12th result :cantstop: Classic case of loag keya kehein gei mentality of us desis. OP, the incident is from Indore,Madhya Pradesh which is in Central India. Yes caste issue is big in India, even in cities. In places like West Bengal(East),Kerala(South) which have communist/leftist parties ruling inter caste hatred isn't present but people will have reservations about inter caste marriages. In Tamil Nadu(South) for instance since the Dravidian movement upper castes(Brahmins especially) have been marginalized and most of the power is concentrated in the hands of lower caste. in that state Brahmins face all the heat, lower castes bully them around and hence they are being forced to migrate overseas/other parts of India. In North, especially in Uttar Pradesh,Bihar,Haryana,etc caste feeling is much stronger. In every family matters like these are izzat kaa sawaal for the men and inter caste violence is a daily affair. They don't want like mingling with other caste people, inter caste marriages frequently result in honour killings !!! In all places in India, the top of the food chain(Brahmins) are the ones who don't indulge in violence, they are intellectual, non violent and most of the social reform movements have come in effect because of them. However other upper castes like Kshatriyas,Other Backward Classes(OBC),Schedule Castes(SC),Schedule Tribes(ST) are alwas fighting amongst each other. Especially the fight between OBCs on one side and SC/STs on other sides is a recurring theme and is common in all states. For example in Uttar Pradesh the Samajwadi Party(OBC) and Bahujan Samaj Part(SC/STs) are always at loggerheads and one of these 2 always rules the state. The reason for that is that the Upper Castes gracefully made way for perks/reservations for OBCs and SC/STs but now OBCs want to deny the lowest classes of their perks and in stead get all the free stuff. Regarding inter caste marriages, that almost always never happens :cantstop:. My cousin got married to a boy from another caste(a lower caste), but her grand parents(who live with me and my parents) didn't even attend the wedding and when the groom came to our house to seek blessings there was a big scene especially with my gerandmother losing her marbles. Now that girl is an outcast as far as her parents and my grandparents are concerned and mind you both the girl and boy are super duper qualified. They are both IIM graduates, the girl's parents are doctors, boy's dad is a professor. if someone tells you that educated people don't look into these things call their BS then and there, caste is always a factor in India and is present in every state. Even in a caste there will be many divisions and those divisions hate each other. I have heard my Tamil Brahmin friends say that amongst Brahmins Iyers(Shiva worshippers) and Iyengars(Vishnu worshippers) have lots of tension between them and regularly mock each other. This is a very complicated practise, i am sure your head will be spinning now and I don't want to muddle your head any further. Just as a conclusion I would say that caste is a bigger factor here than even religion. There is a saying in India that goes: But it seems like our younger generations aren't that much into caste divisions and that is an encouraging thing. But I think even they will always be prejudiced against Dalits,Tribals. Will take a long long time for this practise to go away, the roots of this system are too deeply entrenched into our psyche, it's in our DNA. Really insightful read. I didnt know that there was another upper caste as well namely the Kshatriyas. Because all we hear of are brahmins. I am actually glad that the low caste are at least dominant in some states. Like honestly its not their fault that they were born in low castes and such stuff is very inhumane but very widely practised from the looks of it. You know in our country, the caste scene is not that hot but if for instance i am a Mughal Barllas, i prolly wont marry a marasi ( very low caste, usually dhol walay). However, that is very small scale. Also another question and let me know if its offensive. I have yet to delve into the Hindu religion however why are Iyers and Ivengars fighting over a god when they follow the same religion? As in how many gods exist like Shiva, vishnu, hanuman etc.? Spot on about younger generation being more accepting. But i think its because we are in educated people, the rest of the younger generation might feel the same way as their ancestors which explains some support for terror elements in Pakistan as well. Because people are super ignorant.
Invasion 550 Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 Not a problem in cities. The caste system is slowly but steadily dying out. The only people who really endorse it are our politicians and that too to play petty politics. Development will slowly change that. My estimate would be 2 more generations before it is almost completely side-lined. But the brand of politics must change in India. Brilliant stuff if true. I dont think any human should be judged on where they were born or how they look. That is not their fault.
Invasion 550 Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 Right. But if I am the CM of a state that has 20k villages, its my responsibility that no person from any village has to face any casteism , extreme poverty or exploitation. Yesterday I met poor 15 yo boy (looked no more than 12 yo) from rural Bihar selling paapad in a Park here in Delhi. His mother is no more and father is disabled in bihar and he has to drop out of school (7th class) to send money to village. ( gave him some money and have asked him to come to my home so I can get him admitted to a school and give some monetary help) Whose fault is this if kids have to undergo this even after 65 yrs of independence? Its solely the corruption insensitivity and incompetence of the politicians imo Massive respect for you man. Really. :hatsoff: I hope God gives us the strength to help others like that as well.
Invasion 550 Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 I've tried looking into history to see exactly when the system got corrupted. Started of as a system to ensure division of labor in society on the basis of skill. The corruption happened when Hindus failed to take a united stand when up against both European and Muslim invaders. So technically, it's our own fault. The current generation is going to have to play a big role in reversing a millennium's worth of caste based division. But the signs are healthy, so I'm optimistic. Jalebi. Its the Muslim themselves specifically the sub continental one that have been corrupted with some hindu teachings like Caste system. I think its more cultural than corruption. However, i have witnessed that in my own family we do check for another person's caste. That is a small factor but is seen for a rishta.
jalebi_bhai Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 I think the discrimination was already existing in the society, the invaders made good use of it to divide the society further along caste based lines to fulfill their interests. The system probably started getting corrupted for these reasons: - It was convenient to let jobs be hereditary. People could've switched to a different varna if they'd wanted to during the Vedic times ( I believe so), but it made more sense to continue doing what their fathers did and learn the job from them. - People taking up jobs related to manual labour weren't regarded as highly as the scholars (priests) or the warriors. And as they were grouped into divisions based on their jobs some divisions started being looked down upon. - Come the medieval period the society had become completely segregated and the purpose of divisions in the society based on line of work got completely messed up, the divisions were all hereditary now irrespective of what job each person had taken up and the discrimination against certain divisions set in and got stronger roots. I think the fault lines existed, but caste based discrimination went full blown under the British. Read the part call 'crystallizing caste' from the below link: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=YkUDj0Td-FIC&pg=PT66&dq=We+pigeon+holed+everyone+by+caste+and+if+we+could+not+find+a+true+caste+for+them,+labelled+them+with+the+name+of+hereditary&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EheYU62TCYeeugTUwYLADA#v=onepage&q=We%20pigeon%20holed%20everyone%20by%20caste%20and%20if%20we%20could%20not%20find%20a%20true%20caste%20for%20them%2C%20labelled%20them%20with%20the%20name%20of%20hereditary&f=false Quite a startling admission by L. Middleton, don't you think? As I said above, there were fault lines that may have been widened with the invasions. If the caste system was as historically flawed as some people say, how did Buddha, who was born into a Kshatriya family, be accepted as the spiritual head of an intercontinental religious philosophy? We were a Buddhist nation at one point in time.
jalebi_bhai Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Jalebi. Its the Muslim themselves specifically the sub continental one that have been corrupted with some hindu teachings like Caste system. I think its more cultural than corruption. However' date=' i have witnessed that in my own family we do check for another person's caste. That is a small factor but is seen for a rishta.[/quote'] So why is there sectarianism in Islam if Hinduism corrupted Islam?
jalebi_bhai Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Brilliant stuff if true. I dont think any human should be judged on where they were born or how they look. That is not their fault. As Ras al Gul pointed out, it isn't as big of a problem in the cities. There are still instances of caste based reservation, mostly with regards to reservations in educational institutes, but that is largely politics. In urban social situations, it is mostly the older generations who are narrow-minded. The current generation intermingle quite freely. Rural areas are the big problem, especially because elections are won in the rural areas. Caste based division of votes is still rampant. Here lies the biggest challenge for us.
Invasion 550 Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 So why is there sectarianism in Islam if Hinduism corrupted Islam? That is inbuilt. Not corruption.
BeautifulGame Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 As Ras al Gul pointed out, it isn't as big of a problem in the cities. There are still instances of caste based reservation, mostly with regards to reservations in educational institutes, but that is largely politics. In urban social situations, it is mostly the older generations who are narrow-minded. The current generation intermingle quite freely. Rural areas are the big problem, especially because elections are won in the rural areas. Caste based division of votes is still rampant. Here lies the biggest challenge for us. DM said its a noteworthy issue in cities too
jalebi_bhai Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 That is inbuilt. Not corruption. Are you saying that Islam is inherently divisive? If that is the case, does it need to be corrupted?
jalebi_bhai Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 DM said its a noteworthy issue in cities too In Tamil Nadu it is particularly bad, both in urban and rural areas. That is not the case in every state. I find regionalism to be a bigger problem. Even the current generation are guilty of regionalism.
Invasion 550 Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 Are you saying that Islam is inherently divisive? If that is the case' date=' does it need to be corrupted?[/quote'] I am saying that people interpret the verses in their own way and therefore there are sects. Just like in Christianity. However, the core beliefs are same. What i meant by corruption was not in islam but people's life specifically the subcontinental Muslims which have adopted foreign practises into their daily lives. Its more cultural like i mentioned in the next sentence rather than corruption.
BeautifulGame Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 In Tamil Nadu it is particularly bad' date=' both in urban and rural areas. That is not the case in every state. I find regionalism to be a bigger problem. Even the current generation are guilty of regionalism.[/quote'] TN are probably one of the better state when it comes to caste system I think.At least from my experience For starters we don't use caste names to identify ourselves .So mostly in cities its k once u come out the villages . It helps that there is lot of urbanisation and education so that a significant percentage of lower caste people don't depend on upper caste people for livelihood . Yes in Villages its still depressing becoz upper caste hold most of agri land and most Dalits are land less labours .Though the oppression not as blatant as 15-20 years back as there is lot of awareness . Regionalism is overrated .Even Vaiko the champion of Tamil nationalism could win a single seat
randomGuy Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Jalebi. Its the Muslim themselves specifically the sub continental one that have been corrupted with some hindu teachings like Caste system. I think its more cultural than corruption. However' date=' i have witnessed that in my own family we do check for another person's caste. That is a small factor but is seen for a rishta.[/quote'] You do know though that forefathers ofvast majority of Muslims of subcontinent are converts from Hinduism?
hhunaeh Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 What is the use of not having caste and saying everyone is the same in our religion , if you are killing and being killed by your coreligionists all over the middle east. Everybody believes they are more equal than the rest and decides to kill the others.
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