Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Of course I am aware of that MP. But what you are not perhaps realizing is this - Imran had the luxury of taking time to "arrive" on the world of cricket. Even when he was not playing Pakistan was not exactly a bad team. It had beaten NZ in NZ and came close to doing so in Australia. Imran, or Wasim or Waqar or Shoaib, never faced the problem of starting International cricket with heavy expectation of match winner right from get-go. You see my point. Lets go back now to the comparative test stats as I had put before. By 1983 Kapil had played 53 tests in 5 years while Imran had played 49 in 12 years. You realize how that works out? For Imran a solid 4 test a year. In an era when there was not much ODI cricket to put pressure on one's body. Here is a food for thought - Shoaib Akhtar has played more test per year than Imran did. We all know Shoaib is a prima donna so what does that make Imran?

By that logic since S Ganguly took time to "arrive" then shouldn't he be rated a lot lower as an ODI opener than say Saeed Anwar....and by that same logic Shoaib AKhtar has played almost as many ODIs per year as Sourav Ganguly. Also by that logic Wasim AKram should be rated as the greatest bowler ever because he was LITERALLY picked of the streets and his debut test match was possibly his 2nd or 3rd 1st class game yet he still managed to pick 414 at a bowling average of 23.

Let me summarise this for you all over again- You have two players. Player A is a match winner for his country and breaks all record of fastest double(100 and 1000 runs), fastest double double(200wickets and 2000 runs) in terms of time he takes. Not only is he a trail blazer he also leads his country to World Cup glory. Player is a match winner for his country as well. A better bowler than A but has struggled with injuries, played lot less than what he or what his country would have wanted him to play. And does not have any real trophy to show at this point. Tell me unbiasedly who is better? xxxx

In terms of batting both players had a similar record....say like G Kirsten and J Langer.(Player A was slightly ahead) In terms of bowling it was like comparing G Mcgrath's record to like Chaminda Vaas....so here was a big gulf (Player B was Mcgrath and player A was Vaas) All of this when Player A is suppose to be in his "prime" while player B had just taken off!

[Gambit]

Bumping an old thread. Would Kapil figure in a TOP 20 list of all time great bowlers? IMO, he would struggle to get in.

[Cricketics]

well the only INdian bowler whom ppl won't have doubt about will be Anil Kumble. his stats speaks ..

[prince40]

anil kumble in the top 20 for me quite comfortably

[matma]

Bill O'Reilly in the top 25? thats pretty strange. In fact over Anil Kumblem Abdul Qadair and Richie Benaud is a pretty big call. Kapil Dev should definately be in there. I honestly dont think you can grade them, for the simple fact it is too hard. All in all, pretty good list.

[THX_1138]

Waqar Younis is a tremendously overhyped bowler. His achievements can be attributed to friendly tracks in sharjah or pakistan... and considerable support from the other end. I d place shoaib akhtar in the list instead of him...

[matma]

Overhyped tracks? But that is what makes Waqar so good. Are you going to turn it around and say that Kumble and Bahji's success against Australia in India cant be counted cos they were bowling on dustbowls? Will you then say Hadlee's performance in NZ and ENG is nothing because the conditions are ripe for swing? Will you say that Lillie is notyhing because he bowled well on the bouncy tracks in AUS? If so, you lack a fundamnetal aspect of cricket. Home sides will always produce tracks that are favourable to them. Players grow up in those conditions and adapt to those conditions. Waqar Younis and Wasim Akram are up there with - Lillie and Thompson - Garner and Holding - Ambrose and Walsh.

[Predator_05]

I wish India could have produced an 'overhyped bowler' like Waqar Younis. 373 wickets @ 23 looks so much better than 434 wickets @ 30.

[suraj]

Overhyped tracks? But that is what makes Waqar so good. Are you going to turn it around and say that Kumble and Bahji's success against Australia in India cant be counted cos they were bowling on dustbowls? Will you then say Hadlee's performance in NZ and ENG is nothing because the conditions are ripe for swing? Will you say that Lillie is notyhing because he bowled well on the bouncy tracks in AUS? If so, you lack a fundamnetal aspect of cricket. Home sides will always produce tracks that are favourable to them. Players grow up in those conditions and adapt to those conditions. Waqar Younis and Wasim Akram are up there with - Lillie and Thompson - Garner and Holding - Ambrose and Walsh.

sharjah was supposed to be a nuetral ground not Paki home ground as it turned out to be

[THX_1138]

Overhyped tracks? But that is what makes Waqar so good. Are you going to turn it around and say that Kumble and Bahji's success against Australia in India cant be counted cos they were bowling on dustbowls? Will you then say Hadlee's performance in NZ and ENG is nothing because the conditions are ripe for swing? Will you say that Lillie is notyhing because he bowled well on the bouncy tracks in AUS? If so, you lack a fundamnetal aspect of cricket. Home sides will always produce tracks that are favourable to them. Players grow up in those conditions and adapt to those conditions. Waqar Younis and Wasim Akram are up there with - Lillie and Thompson - Garner and Holding - Ambrose and Walsh.

well let me be more precise... indeed waqar was talented, but his exploits came in the presence of akram... remove akram from the picture and though pakistan did yet have adequate support from aquib javed and the likes, waqar would not have been half as successful. he, as has been my limited experience, never flourished consistently and though he did have the odd 5 for, he was never a consistent threat. i might of course be talking out of my rear end.

[The Outsider]

Waqar had a superb 4-5 years in international cricket in which he was a really good bowler and was a specialist in beating the minnows to pulp, but he hardly ever did well against strong batting lineups and is over hyped in that sense. Certainly a notch below Akram.

[Predator_05]

Waqar had a superb 4-5 years in international cricket in which he was a really good bowler and was a specialist in beating the minnows to pulp' date=' but he hardly ever did well against strong batting lineups and is over hyped in that sense. Certainly a notch below Akram.[/quote'] ...and still several notches above any fast bowler India ever produced.

[riya]

Waqar Younis is a tremendously overhyped bowler. His achievements can be attributed to friendly tracks in sharjah or pakistan... and considerable support from the other end. I d place shoaib akhtar in the list instead of him...

U would replace Waqar who took 387 wickets with some one who hasn't achieved half of that ,that too playing with so much luxuries like ''getting injured '' whnever he wants ,plus those ever reliable ''hyper extension '' .No way . Only those naive kids can say Waqar was overhyped and relied on Wasim from other end .well Waqar was virtually unplayable and destructive than any other bowler on those peak years.This is from an eye witness . Akhtar even in his peakest peak is not a patch on him ,one has to watch him in his prime . Akhtar on the other hand bowls whenever he feels that he is at his best and with full pace .It took 10 years for him to complete 175 wickets ,for Waqar he completed 200 + wickets in 4 years .About minnow bashing ,yes he enjoyed destroying Kiwis and Zimbabwe .Now take out Akhtar's average against Kiwis and Bangladesh and u can see a very mediocre stat in 30s . Not any thing earth shattering .

[riya]

...and still several notches above any fast bowler India ever produced.

I would have happily given all Indian bowlers to get Waqar in Indian team .

[MundaPakistani]

Waqar Younis is a tremendously overhyped bowler. His achievements can be attributed to friendly tracks in sharjah or pakistan... and considerable support from the other end. I d place shoaib akhtar in the list instead of him...

hmmm? fast bowling? Pakistan, Sharjah? friendly?? I can safely say that you are the first(and probably the last)person to say that.

[The Outsider]

...and still several notches above any fast bowler India ever produced.

True, never denied that though not sure about the several notches part if you consider the first half of Kapil's career and take into account his performance against WI. Waqar sucked royally against Australia and India - the best batting line ups he faced.

[Guest Hiten.]

True' date=' never denied that though not sure about the several notches part if you consider the first half of Kapil's career and take into account his performance against WI. [b']Waqar sucked royally against Australia and India - the best batting line ups he faced.

I always thought, we crumbled against Vicky. Our fcktards (barring Tendulkar) could hardly face any bowler in the 90s. Vicky took 37 wickets in 26 games @ 24 (ODI's). In test matches you cannot evaluate his performances against India because he only played 4 games against us. Waqar, unlike Wasim never had success in succession. His 'peak' was a turbulent.

[rahul_desiz]

if Shoaib Akhtar and Brett Lee are not in your list, then you even dont know a jack about Bowling

[rahul_desiz]

hmmm? fast bowling? Pakistan, Sharjah? friendly?? I can safely say that you are the first(and probably the last)person to say that.

:haha::haha:

[Guest Hiten.]

if Shoaib Akhtar and Brett Lee are not in your list' date= then you even dont know a jack about Bowling

Fixed.