zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Muloghonto said: Same goes for you. If you don't present evidence you can't call it a fact. Scientific proof needs to be provided for existence of a being/object because that is the same standard for every being/object existing. You have quoted their beliefs. Which i said anyone is free to have. You have not shown anywhere where scientists claim God is a fact. That issue exists only in mind of people who are not trained in science and don't know the difference between belief and fact. Something your quotes about famous scientists reflect because none of those quotes claim God is a fact. Keep going then. Your position is called belief. Not knowledge. Knowledge carries obligations that you are not meeting. Ah ha, as expected, another recycled post^ .... with nothing on post #143 .... Anyways, let's continue the game To try to arrive at a solution, let me create a hypothetical scenario with the following players: Mulo: A scientist who feels God does not exist as there is no evidence Mento: Mulo's mentor who "actually" understands science and believes in God Zeno: A simpleton who believes in God and does not understand the intricacies of science So the story begins: Zeno, a simpleton, is usually happy go merry and seen praying to the God. The community that he lives in has believed in God since ages. Since his birth, he has been taught to do the right things. Over the years, Zeno learns more about religion and God by reading sacred books and learning from religious scholars (not scientists). Zeno walks on the path of Dharma and meditates One day, God comes to Zeno and tells him that he is pleased. God also tells Zeno that in the past life Zeno was a great king who had built some of the greatest temples. As a king, Zeno had always felt bad about the poor and that he couldn't do much to alleviate their situation. One day, heeding on the wrong advise, Zeno marched in to a near by kingdom causing several deaths including of innocent people Zeno could not forgive himself for this and spent the rest of his life praying to God and lamenting his decision. He blamed God for making him the king. Therefore, this time as per Zeno wishes, God made him a simpleton so he would spend his life in peace. His natural association with God over several births attracted him to God this time too. God tells Zeno to continue the good work. God also tells him to keep the meeting a secret as such interactions are not be to shared. God tells if you talk about such interactions with fools, they will only laugh at you so don't bother (such people had laughed at God at various points in history) At a nearby place, Mulo is bashing his head over why people believe in God when there is no scientific evidence. He laughs at all the fools who believe in God and waste their lives. He has seen how people are scammed in the name of religion. Over the years, he has become a scientific fundamentalist Mento, is the true champion of science. He also believes in God. Today, Mento and Mulo had a meeting on how to turn the round earth flat as a solution to the diminishing power of gravity. After the meeting, Mulo offers to drive Mento home. On the way, they pass across a temple and Mento being religious asks Mulo to stop so he could offer his thanks. Mulo gets agitated at the thought of God and such concepts, but not wanting to hurt Mento stops at the temple Inside the temple, Mulo watches Zeno chanting some mantras. Mento starts meditating as well and thanking God for everything. This image of a simpleton and a scientist bowing to down to God snaps something evil in Mulo. The scientific terrorist in him awaken Mulo confronts Zeno by asking him how does he know God exist. Zeno could be wasting his time as no one could be listening to his mantras. Zeno explains what he believes in. However, Mulo explains to Zeno various forms of acceptable proofs in the scientific world. Zeno explains to Mulo about what he has learned God had visited Mento too and actually told him the formula to make world flat but like Zeno, Mento is not supposed to discuss this. Mento came to the temple today to once again thank God Unable to get the answer he wanted from Zeno, Mulo gets agitated and walks out. In the car, he talks about the religion being a scam to Mento. Mulo says that tomorrow we will male the world flat and these simpleton still leave in ancient times .... Mento ignores Mulo's ignorant comments Next day, Mulo pats him self on his back on his new achievement to make the world flat (However, he had actually only provided minor presentation inputs to Mento's work). On the way home, he passes the temple and again watches Zeno praying to the God. Mulo gives an evil shirk. But then the scientific terrorist in him takes over. He stops his car and enters the temple with a foaming mouth How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda-esque Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 A spokesperson from Merriam Websters contacted me yesterday. He said they wanted me to define the word 'plethora' for the dictionary. Told him, it means a lot to me. Mariyams-Websters does indulge in a lot of alternate definitions.. Mariyam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 28 minutes ago, zen said: Ah ha, as expected, another recycled post^ .... with nothing on post #143 .... Anyways, let's continue the game To try to arrive at a solution, let's me create a hypothetical scenario with the following players: Mulo: A scientist who feels God does not exist as there is no scientific evidence Mento: Mulo's mentor who "actually" understands science and believes in God Zeno: A simpleton who believes in God and does not understand the intricacies of science So the story begins: Zeno, a simpleton, is usually happy go merry and seen praying to the God. The community that he lives in has believed in God since ages. Since his birth, he has been taught to do the right things. Over the years, Zeno learns more about religion and God by reading sacred books and learning from religious scholars (not scientists). Zeno walks on the path of Dharma and meditates. One day, God comes to Zeno and tells him that he is pleased. God also tells Zeno that in the past life Zeno was a great king who had built some of the greatest temples. As a king, Zeno had always felt bad about the poor and that he couldn't do much to alleviate their situation. One day, heeding on the wrong advise, Zeno marched in to a near by kingdom causing several deaths including of innocent people Zeno could not forgive himself for this and spent the rest of his life praying to God and lamenting his decision. He blamed God for making him the king. Therefore, this time as per Zeno wishes, God made him a simpleton so he would spend his life in peace. His natural association with God over several births attracted him to God this time too. God tells Zeno to continue the good work. God also tells him to keep the meeting a secret as such interactions are not be to shared. God tells if you talk about such interactions with fools, they will only laugh at you so don't bother (such people had laughed at God at various points in history) At a nearby place, Mulo is bashing his head over why people believe in God when there is no scientific evidence. He laughs at all the fools who believe in God and waste their lives. He has seen how people are scammed in the name of religion. Over the years, he has become a scientific fundamentalist Mento, is the true champion of science. He also believes in God. Today, Mento and Mulo had a meeting on how to turn the round earth flat as a solution to the diminishing power of gravity. After the meeting, Mulo offers to drive Mento home. On the way, they pass across a temple and Mento being religious asks Mulo to stop so he could offer his thanks. Mulo gets agitated at the thought of God and such concepts, but not wanting to hurt Mento stops at the temple Inside the temple, Mulo watches Zeno chanting some mantras. Mento starts meditating as well and thanking God for everything. This image of a simpleton and a scientist bowing to down to God snaps something evil in Mulo. The scientific terrorist in him awaken Mulo confronts Zeno by asking him how does he know God exist. Zeno could be wasting his time as no one could be listening to his mantras. Zeno explains what he believes in. However, Mulo explains to Zeno various forms of acceptable proofs in the scientific world. Zeno explains to Mulo about what he has learned. God had visited Mento too and actually told him the formula to make world flat but like Zeno, Mento is not supposed to discuss this. Mento came to the temple today to once again thank God Unable to get the answer he wanted from Zeno, Mulo gets agitated and walks out. In the car, he talks about the religion being a scam to Mento. Mulo says that tomorrow we will male the world flat and these simpleton still leave in ancient times .... Mento ignores Mulo's ignorant comments Next day, Mulo pats him self on his back on his new achievement to make the world flat (However, he had actually only provided minor presentation inputs to Mento's work). On the way home, he passes the temple and again watches Zeno praying to the God. Mulo gives an evil shirk. But then the scientific terrorist in him takes over. He stops his car and enters the temple with a foaming mouth. How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) Nothing more than demonstrations of why you cannot differentiate between fact & fiction. On the bolded parts: 1. Given that 99.99% people who have 'visits from the paranormal' are schizophrenic delusionals, Zeno should get himself clinically checked out and If and only If doctors can rule out schizophrenia can Zeno investigate 'God' or other causes for his visions. Otherwise, he is just sick in the head. 2. If almighty God, with the power to do anything, choses to not give evidence of his existence to people, then people will laugh at him and the cause of such laughter would be God itself. Just like if someone keeps saying 'i want to keep you safe' while they punch you in the face over and over again will get a response of 'yeah, your claim doesn't match your actions', same applies to those who say 'i have proof of God but i won't give it' - their claim doesnt match their actions. I have already provided categoric definitions of what is considered proof. You seeing it as scientific fundamentalism is just a roundabout way of saying your religious beliefs do not live up to the standards of evidence, so you want to toss the standards away to preserve your own belief system. Common fallacy of the religious people, including the failure to differentiate fact from fiction, evidence from claim and trying to seek proof of a negative. All of which you display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Nothing more than demonstrations of why you cannot differentiate between fact & fiction. On the bolded parts: 1. Given that 99.99% people who have 'visits from the paranormal' are schizophrenic delusionals, Zeno should get himself clinically checked out and If and only If doctors can rule out schizophrenia can Zeno investigate 'God' or other causes for his visions. Otherwise, he is just sick in the head. 2. If almighty God, with the power to do anything, choses to not give evidence of his existence to people, then people will laugh at him and the cause of such laughter would be God itself. Just like if someone keeps saying 'i want to keep you safe' while they punch you in the face over and over again will get a response of 'yeah, your claim doesn't match your actions', same applies to those who say 'i have proof of God but i won't give it' - their claim doesnt match their actions. I have already provided categoric definitions of what is considered proof. You seeing it as scientific fundamentalism is just a roundabout way of saying your religious beliefs do not live up to the standards of evidence, so you want to toss the standards away to preserve your own belief system. Common fallacy of the religious people, including the failure to differentiate fact from fiction, evidence from claim and trying to seek proof of a negative. All of which you display. The question is - "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo)" It was a hypothetical situation where you were supposed to take everything at face value and answer the question .... You avoided answering the question convincingly and rather chose to comment more on the scenario which is already labelled as "hypothetical" Thank you for proving my point by about the "Mulos" of the world Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, zen said: The question is - "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo)" It was a hypothetical situation where you were supposed to take everything at face value and answer the question .... You avoided answering the question convincingly and rather chose to comment on the hypothetical scenario which we already labelled "hypothetical" Thank you for proving my point by about the "Mulos" of the world Zeno can only explore that avenue after Zeno has seen a doctor and ruled out schizophrenia. If you have a condition (seeing things) that is clinically proven in overwhelming cases to be a problem with your brain, if Zeno was smart, he'd get checked out for that first. Hypothetical or not, Zeno is stupid or egotistic to accept God before he/she finds out if they are schizophrenic or not. PS: Mulo isnt assuming anything. Its the religious crowd that is. Saying something is a 'faulty assumption' doesnt make it a faulty assumption- especially if there is no assumption to begin with. Edited January 13, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Zeno can only explore that avenue after Zeno has seen a doctor and ruled out schizophrenia. If you have a condition (seeing things) that is clinically proven in overwhelming cases to be a problem with your brain, if Zeno was smart, he'd get checked out for that first. Hypothetical or not, Zeno is stupid or egotistic to accept God before he/she finds out if they are schizophrenic or not. PS: Mulo isnt assuming anything. Its the religious crowd that is. Saying something is a 'faulty assumption' doesnt make it a faulty assumption- especially if there is no assumption to begin with. Again, you ignored the point on Mento and his interaction with God .... the situation with various factors considered is almost perfectly laid out in the story that there is no way out for you So what is the answer to the question proposed? Or it shows that Mulos of the world are empty vessels making some noise Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, zen said: Again, you ignored the point on Mento and his interaction with God .... the situation with various factors considered is almost perfectly laid out in the story that there is no way out for you So what is the answer to the question proposed? Or it shows that Mulos of the world are empty vessels making some noise Mento and his interaction with God cannot be acknowledged before Mento gets checked for schizophrenia either. When you see things inside your head and 99.999% of the cases gone to a doctor have been diagnosed as an illness, Mento is either stupid or egotistic to think that without medical evaluation, he can rule out a disease. The answer to the question provided are Mento and Zeno are either idiots or egotistic to give credit to something that is more likely to be a disease than a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Muloghonto said: Mento and his interaction with God cannot be acknowledged before Mento gets checked for schizophrenia either. When you see things inside your head and 99.999% of the cases gone to a doctor have been diagnosed as an illness, Mento is either stupid or egotistic to think that without medical evaluation, he can rule out a disease. The answer to the question provided are Mento and Zeno are either idiots or egotistic to give credit to something that is more likely to be a disease than a reality. The question is - "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo)" By claiming that everyone in the story except Mula is suffering from disease is not a scientific answer. Appears as if you are ditching the methods you want others to adhere to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, zen said: The question is - "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo)" By claiming that everyone in the story except Mula is suffering from disease is not a scientific answer. Appears as if you are ditching the methods you want others to adhere to There are no faulty assumptions, because there are no assumptions. Assuming something exists without any proof of its existence is assumption. If proof is not required to be given, then you cannot call it a fact. Because facts require proof. That is not a rule Mulo invented, that is the fundamental process of rationalism. And yes, it is a scientific answer to say that given that overwhelming majority of people who go to doctors seeing things are diagnosed with a disease, not investigating the possibility of disease in the first place is an unscientific way of being. Edited January 13, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: There are no faulty assumptions, because there are no assumptions. Assuming something exists without any proof of its existence is assumption. If proof is not required to be given, then you cannot call it a fact. Because facts require proof. That is not a rule Mulo invented, that is the fundamental process of rationalism. And yes, it is a scientific answer to say that given that overwhelming majority of people who go to doctors seeing things are diagnosed with a disease, not investigating the possibility of disease in the first place is an unscientific way of being. let stick to the realms of the story You said that both Zeno and Mento are suffering from mental disease. In the story, Mulo seems to think (incorrectly) it is he who is equally responsible for the formula that would make world flat when he only provided minor presentation inputs. While Zeno and Mento's encounters with God are to be taken at face value. Let's not forget the Mento actually invented the formula .... So it could be deduced that it more likely that Mulo is suffering from some kind of mental disease .... deducing further, Mulo's rules appear to not hold any value Back to the question: "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo)" Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, zen said: let stick to the realms of the story You said that both Zeno and Mento are suffering from mental disease from a scientific deductions. No, i am saying that without ruling that out as an option, we cannot make any claims, since that option is the majority case option with people who see things inside their heads. Quote "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo)" Except as i keep telling you, Mulo isn't making any assumptions in your story. Zeno is, he is assuming that his visions isn't delusional, because he hasn't seen a doctor yet. Same with Mento. Mulo in your story, isn't assuming anything, since he isn't making a positive claim without evidence. Your story demonstrates that you do not understand logic or rationalism. Edited January 13, 2017 by Muloghonto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Muloghonto said: No, i am saying that without ruling that out as an option, we cannot make any claims, since that option is the majority case option with people who see things inside their heads. Except as i keep telling you, Mulo isn't making any assumptions in your story. Zeno is, he is assuming that his visions isn't delusional, because he hasn't seen a doctor yet. Same with Mento. The story clear talks about Zeno and Mento's encounters with God as real .... if you think it happened in their heads, then you are running away from the reality in the story Quote Mulo in your story, isn't assuming anything, since he isn't making a positive claim without evidence. Your story demonstrates that you do not understand logic or rationalism . Again, "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Just now, zen said: The story clear talks about Zeno and Mento's encounters with God as real .... if you think it happened in their heads, then you are running away from the reality in the story Except without medical evaluation, there is no basis on claiming what happens inside Zeno or Mento's head is real. Quote "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) And again: There are no faulty assumptions, because there are no assumptions. Assuming something exists without any proof of its existence is assumption. All you are doing, is exposing your failures at logic & rationalism, if you think from your story, Mulo is 'assuming' anything. as·sump·tion əˈsəm(p)SH(ə)n/ noun 1. a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof. "they made certain assumptions about the market" synonyms: supposition, presumption, belief, expectation, conjecture, speculation, surmise, guess, premise, hypothesis; More So the assumption is from the people most probably hallucinating in their heads, not from Mulo, since he isn't accepting anything as true without proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Except without medical evaluation, there is no basis on claiming what happens inside Zeno or Mento's head is real. And again: There are no faulty assumptions, because there are no assumptions. Assuming something exists without any proof of its existence is assumption. All you are doing, is exposing your failures at logic & rationalism, if you think from your story, Mulo is 'assuming' anything. as·sump·tion əˈsəm(p)SH(ə)n/ noun 1. a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof. "they made certain assumptions about the market" synonyms: supposition, presumption, belief, expectation, conjecture, speculation, surmise, guess, premise, hypothesis; More So the assumption is from the people most probably hallucinating in their heads, not from Mulo, since he isn't accepting anything as true without proof. Things have been set up in such a way that anything unnecessary that you write will be only show your inability to understand or be seen as attempts at manipulation (cherry picking, recycling, misrepresenting what is in the story, etc. will go against you) .... you have no tools left So once again, "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) Edited January 13, 2017 by zen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Just now, zen said: Things have been set up in such a way that anything unnecessary that you write will be only show your inability understand (cherry picking, recycling, misrepresenting what is in the story, etc. will go against you) So once again, "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) Already proven to be false, since Mulo isn't making any assumption. You repeating it a million times won't change the definition, just like no matter what you say, your belief without proof cannot be considered a fact. PS: You didnt set things up well enough clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Already proven to be false, since Mulo isn't making any assumption. You repeating it a million times won't change the definition, just like no matter what you say, your belief without proof cannot be considered a fact. PS: You didnt set things up well enough clearly. As I said, you have no tools left .... so once again: "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Just now, zen said: As I said, you have no tools left .... so once again: "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) I don't need tools, since I've already proven your this particular claim to be false. All you are doing, is exposing the fact that you don't know the definitions of the words you are using. And making blind claims- just like a religion-afflicted brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: I don't need tools, since I've already proven your this particular claim to be false. All you are doing, is exposing the fact that you don't know the definitions of the words you are using. And making blind claims- just like a religion-afflicted brain. What I not or do not know, does not matter .... In the story, Zeno is being forced to answer unnecessary questions. Questions to which even Mento, the person who actually knows science also has answers to Check and mate Ctrl+V" "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 minute ago, zen said: What I not or do not know, does not matter .... In the story, Zeno is being forced to answer unnecessary questions. Questions to which even Mento, the person who actually knows science also has answers to Check and mate Ctrl+V" "How is Zeno, a simpleton on surface but actually a much learned person, going to prove in Mulo's specified uni-dimensional method with faulty assumptions that God exists? (And when the proof is not even required to be given to Mulo) LOL. I've proven your entire fantasy story to be a fallacy. as·sump·tion əˈsəm(p)SH(ə)n/ noun 1. a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof. "they made certain assumptions about the market" synonyms: Check-mate to you, mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Hey mods, could you please cut out the last 2-3 pages of this thread and put it under a God thread ? Atleast historical discussion re: Ashoka/Shivaji was somewhat relevant to the topic. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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