Tibetan Declaration of Independence

[Muloghonto]

26 minutes ago, CasualVisitor said:

@Mulo, what in your view could be the reason(s) why DL is not officially declaring it? There must be something to it!

 

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Well I've met the Dalai Llama a few times and he is extremely reluctant to talk about it. When it comes to politics, he is a very distrusting fellow- thinks/gives off the notion that anyone asking him about Tibet is going to run to the papers with a 'The Dalai Llama said this' scoop and cause international incident. Is also really scared of China. 

IMO, he is like Gandhi in Gandhi's last few years : doesnt care about the politics/political responsibilities, is happy with his spiritual responsibilities and status and is keen on preserving that- even if it means political FUBAR.

He thinks that Tibet declaring independence = China will go on a killing spree, India is too soft to really go into war (even today or 50 years ago) & so basically thinks that if he declares, lots of people, including possibly himself, will be killed but nothing else would happen.

He doesnt want to go down as 'The Dalai Llama who took a stance that killed many, possibly tens of thousands of people'.

 

The closest he's come to saying 'F U China' is saying that if things do not improve, he will choose 'not to re-incarnate', aka ending the lineage of the Dalai Llama. 

Which would be a risky move- on one hand, it will incense the Tibetans into an uprising but on the other, if the uprising fails, then China can claim 'well your spiritual leader officially stated he is not re-incarnating, so office of Dalai Llama is defunct' and remove that enormous cultural heritage and office of prestige amongst the Tibetans. Atleast right now China officially 'manages' the Tibetan Llama traditions and positions. 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Muloghonto

[zen]

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Links have been posted.

Clearly states that US sent copies to Britain and France, Thomas Jefferson authorized sending copies via the person named to Latin America.

 

You said :

 

I've provided links in post 167 and 175.

Nope. Does not state "US" officially sent copies. Please provide the actual example addressing the concerned govts in the manner that I documented for Tibet in post 161

 

PS America is just the beginning. Your claim is for "every" nation 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Nope. Does not state "US" officially sent copies. Please provide the actual example addressing the concerned govts in the manner that I documented for Tibet in post 161

 

 

Yes, it does. 

It states Britain and France received official copies. Official copies mean, sent officially.

What you posted in #161 is not an official declaration, its a treaty with another government. We are not talking about joint statements, which are treaties, we are talking about official declaration and sending documents to others.

Which i've demonstrated the US has done.

 

Quote

 

PS America is just the beginning. Your claim is for "every" nation 

My claim is for every nation that has declared independence and recognized so, without the consent of its sovereign, over the last 100 or so years. Stated multiple times.

 

So far, Kosovo,Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and Eritrea qualify under the criteria of 'declared independence despite objections of the Sovereign'. All others, to my knowledge, got independence by consent of its sovereign, so official declaration not required.

 

Show us the nations Tibet sent its declaration to. Name the nations/person it was sent to.

 

^ Stop running away from this.

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Muloghonto

[zen]

24 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, it does. 

It states Britain and France received official copies. Official copies mean, sent officially.

What you posted in #161 is not an official declaration, its a treaty with another government. We are not talking about joint statements, which are treaties, we are talking about official declaration and sending documents to others.

Which i've demonstrated the US has done.

 

My claim is for every nation that has declared independence and recognized so, without the consent of its sovereign, over the last 100 or so years. Stated multiple times.

 

 

Show us the nations Tibet sent its declaration to. Name the nations/person it was sent to.

 

^ Stop running away from this.

 

Nope. Show me the official letter officially addressed to the various govts and officially sent by US govt

 

Post it point by point in its original form 

 

The declaration by 13th DL is an official copy too # c in post 161  (there are so many official things posted in post 161) which you were fraudantly unwilling to accept

 

Thank you 

Edited March 7, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

Nope. Show me the letter officially addressed to the various govt and sent by US govt

 

Post it point by point in its original form 

 

The declaration by 13th DL is an official copy # c in post 161  (there are so many official things posted in post 161) 

 

Thank you 

Sorry,i don't have to show you the letter, to prove the point that US officially sent the letter.

Furthermore, US didn't send a letter to anyone, they sent the official copy of declaration of independence.

First link from wikipedia is from official US archive website. Second link is directly quoting an official of the UK national archives.

Both state official copies sent to France/recieved by UK.

 

Thus, the claim that US sent official copies to multiple parties, has been proven by official claim of so, by US & UK official archives body.

 

Quote

The declaration by 13th DL is an official copy # c in post 161  (there are so many official things posted in post 161) 

Show us the nations Tibet sent its declaration to. Name the nations/person it was sent to.

 

Quote us multiple official government website or comments by an official of a foreign nation indicating Tibet sent its declarations to them.

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Muloghonto

[zen]

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Sorry,i don't have to show you the letter, to prove the point that US officially sent the letter

 

 

As expected, you cant prove anything about your criterias you were harping about 

 

Forgot about every country, in the very first one you failed

 

Thank you 

 

Btw, the link you posted say British officials sent copies not US:

 

"British officials in North America sent copies of the Declaration to Great Britain.[116] It was published in British newspapers beginning in mid-August, it had reached Florence and Warsaw by mid-September, and a German translation appeared in Switzerland by October. The first copy of the Declaration sent to France got lost, and the second copy arrived only in November 1776.[117] It reached Portuguese America by Brazilian medical student "Vendek" José Joaquim Maia e Barbalho, who had met with Thomas Jefferson in Nîmes."

Edited March 7, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

As expected, you cant prove anything about your criterias you were harping about 

 

Forgot about every country, in the very first one you failed

 

Thank you 

I proved that US sent official documents to multiple nation, by quoting officials & official website.

 

As usual, you will run away from the evidence presented. 

 

PS: 

Show us the nations Tibet sent its declaration to. Name the nations/person it was sent to.

 

Quote us multiple official government website or comments by an official of a foreign nation indicating Tibet sent its declarations to them.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I proved that US sent official documents to multiple nation, by quoting officials & official website.

 

As usual, you will run away from the evidence presented. 

 

 

Btw, the link you posted say British officials sent copies not US:

 

"British officials in North America sent copies of the Declaration to Great Britain.[116] It was published in British newspapers beginning in mid-August, it had reached Florence and Warsaw by mid-September, and a German translation appeared in Switzerland by October. The first copy of the Declaration sent to France got lost, and the second copy arrived only in November 1776.[117] It reached Portuguese America by Brazilian medical student "Vendek" José Joaquim Maia e Barbalho, who had met with Thomas Jefferson in Nîmes."

 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Btw, the link you posted say British officials sent copies not US:

 

"British officials in North America sent copies of the Declaration to Great Britain.[116] It was published in British newspapers beginning in mid-August, it had reached Florence and Warsaw by mid-September, and a German translation appeared in Switzerland by October. The first copy of the Declaration sent to France got lost, and the second copy arrived only in November 1776.[117] It reached Portuguese America by Brazilian medical student "Vendek" José Joaquim Maia e Barbalho, who had met with Thomas Jefferson in Nîmes."

 

 

Official copies were relayed to the British officials. Otherwise, they cannot get an official copy. Remember, no internet, no photocopy machines, so how do the British officials get official copy ?

The second link clearly states that the British are in possession of an official copy, by an official from their national archives.

 

[zen]

37 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Official copies were relayed to the British officials. Otherwise, they cannot get an official copy. Remember, no internet, no photocopy machines, so how do the British officials get official copy ?

The second link clearly states that the British are in possession of an official copy, by an official from their national archives.

 

But you would not accept such points if made for Tibet and argue that they would have got it through other sources including through media, spies, etc. so SHOW US THAT US GOVT HANDED OFFICIAL COPIES to these govts 

 

(If you want me to accept that, the underlying assumption on Tibet too would be that its officials passed on the 1913 declaration) 

 

If you can't show that about US , it would conclude the discussion .... Since I see you as a dishonest poster, I ll not be wasting time in engaging with you further on any other topics so this is your last chance to make an impression

 

EOE

Edited March 7, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

Just now, zen said:

But you would not accept such points if made for Tibet and argue that they would have got it through other sources so SHOW US THAT US GOVT HANDED OFFICIAL COPIES to these govts 

I don't have to show you that government handed the official documents, because prior to invention of photocopy machines, the only way one got an official copy is if one could get it from an official. Otherwise, tell us how one gets an official copy in 1770s. 

And yes, i'd accept such evidence when it comes to Tibet, which is why i am asking, name the countries and people Tibet sent the official copy to. Notice, i want names and proof that it was sent to them- not the actual document itself.

 

Quote

If you can't show, it concludes are debate .... Since you are a dishonest poster, I ll not be wasting time in engaging with you further on any other topics so this is your last chance to make an impression

You keep saying last chance/debate over and then continue posting, so your proclamations have no value. 

I've already produced evidence that official copies of US's declaration of independence was sent to British officials and to France. The statement comes from US national archives records and from an official of the UK national archives.

So,

 

Show us the nations Tibet sent its declaration to. Name the nations/person it was sent to.

[zen]

12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I don't have to show you that government handed the official documents, because prior to invention of photocopy machines, the only way one got an official copy is if one could get it from an official. Otherwise, tell us how one gets an official copy in 1770s. 

And yes, i'd accept such evidence when it comes to Tibet, which is why i am asking, name the countries and people Tibet sent the official copy to. Notice, i want names and proof that it was sent to them- not the actual document itself.

 

You keep saying last chance/debate over and then continue posting, so your proclamations have no value. 

I've already produced evidence that official copies of US's declaration of independence was sent to British officials and to France. The statement comes from US national archives records and from an official of the UK national archives.

So,

 

Show us the nations Tibet sent its declaration to. Name the nations/person it was sent to.

Various circumstances, implications and assumptions are applicable to Tibet too . Made posts on that already

 

Last chance for you to show letters addressed to other govts .... no more replies (time wasting) to you, if the requested evidence is not presented 

 

If you present the evidence, we will move to next country or goodbye, it was nice to know you

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

Just now, zen said:

Last chance to show .... no more replies if the requested evidence is not presented 

Evidence already presented.

Claim was, US provided official copies to multiple nations.

Claim substantiated with evidence cited from US national archive and UK national archive official. 
 

I asked you to provide evidence that Tibet sent its declaration to multiple nations. Not the copy of the text or what it said, just official acknowledgement from Tibet or foreign government stating they'd sent official declaration copy to multiple nations, stating their names.

 

You've failed so far.

 

PS: Yet another last chance ? Last chance in your world means something else.

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Evidence already presented.

Claim was, US provided official copies to multiple nations.

Claim substantiated with evidence cited from US national archive and UK national archive official. 
 

I asked you to provide evidence that Tibet sent its declaration to multiple nations. Not the copy of the text or what it said, just official acknowledgement from Tibet or foreign government stating they'd sent official declaration copy to multiple nations, stating their names.

 

You've failed so far.

 

PS: Yet another last chance ? Last chance in your world means something else.

Read the full post again .... you failed to validate your criteria. This concludes debate. Goodbye

 

Eoe

[Muloghonto]

Just now, zen said:

Read the full post again .... you failed to validate your criteria. This concludes debate. Goodbye

 

Eoe

I fully validated my criteria.

My criterias are :

 

a) Official claim of sovereignty on a given date (US fulfills this, Tibet does not)

b) sending official claim of sovereignty to multiple nations (US sent it to UK and France, official from US authorized official copy sent to Latin America).

 

You are the one who fails to substantiate your claim that Tibet did the same, since you cannot provide the names of the nations Tibet sent its so-called declaration to.

 

 

PS: As predicted, 'more comments after last warning'.

[zen]

Moving on to more on Tibet:

 

 

Shows how Nehru misguided DL .... and even refused to recognize its independence, a topic of Ind interest to create a buffer state, and backed China for UN .... Appears as if Nehru did everything in its power to please China

 

Sardar's letter to Nehru - "  The tragedy of it is that the Tibetans put faith in us; they chose to be guided by us; and we have been unable to get them out of the meshes of Chinese diplomacy or Chinese malevolence. " 

Edited March 7, 2017 by zen

[zen]

For reference:

 

Tibet's letter to  UK seeking assistance against threats from China:

 

The Tibetan government responded to the communist's victory in the Chinese civil war by sending appeals to the U.S. and Great Britain requesting civil and military assistance in the face of the communist threat. The letter to Britain said:

 

The Chinese Communist troops have invaded the Chinese Provinces of Lanchow, Chinghai and Sinkiang; and as these Provinces are situated on the border of Tibet, we have sent an official letter to Mr. Mautsetung leader of the Chinese Communist Government, asking him to respect the territorial integrity of Tibet.(12) We enclose herewith the true copy of the letter which our Government has sent to the leader of Chinese Communist Government, thinking that he may duly consider the matter.

 

But in case the Chinese communist leader ignores our letter, and takes an aggressive attitude and sends his troops toward Tibet, then the Government of Tibet will be obligated to defend her own country by all possible means. Therefore the Government of Tibet would earnestly desire to request every possible help from your Government. We would be most grateful if you would please consider extensive aid in respect of requirements for Civil and military purposes, and kindly let us have a favourable reply at your earliest opportunity.

 

From, The Tibetan Foreign Bureau, Lhasa [4 November 1949] (13)

 

 

 

On 22 December 1949, the Tibetan Foreign Bureau sent the following letter to President Truman and Secretary of State Dean Acheson:

 

Though Tibet has remained an Independent Country for about thirty years without any trouble, but recently the Chinese Communist leaders have announced over their Radio claiming Tibet as a part of Chinese territory and many other remarks about Tibet which are absolutely baseless and misleading. Besides the Chinese Communists have already occupied the border Provinces of Sinkiang, Sining (the Capital of Chinghai), and also Shikang [province created in 1927 of the ethnic Tibetan areas now in Sichuan Province]. Therefore it is impossible for us to remain indifferent at such a critical time. Hence we are deputing soon Lachag Khenchung Thupten Sanghe and Rimshi Dingja to lead a special Mission to your country for the purpose of obtaining aid from your government.

 

We would therefore be most grateful to your honour if you would kindly render every possible assistance to our Mission on their arrival in Washington.(15)

 

 

So Tibet was officially communicating with many nations about its independent status. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

The above post is a misleading one. Tibet wasnt officially communicating its independent status to foreign governments, Tibet was asking for help from foreign governments. Official communication relaying independent status is a very simple thing - it requires one to officially communicate their wish to be considered independent. Not 'help me, i am independent'. That is just a plea of help, nothing more.

 

[zen]

As some folks here discovered -> dishonesty is not the best policy 

[Vilander]

hey mulog we dont give a * really. Tibet should be free and Kashmir is an Indian state, thats the Indian stand. Toe the line.