Tibetan Declaration of Independence

[BeautifulGame]

Have no idea how OP could morph into a debate on Tibetan Independence but anyway split the thread into a seperate one.

 

Please post the Tibet related stuff in this one.

 

@zen @Muloghonto 

Edited March 4, 2017 by BeautifulGame

[zen]

1 minute ago, BeautifulGame said:

Have no idea how OP could morph into a debate on Tibetan Independence but anyway split the thread into a seperate one.

 

Please on the Tibet related stuff in this one.

 

@zen @Muloghonto 

Thank you

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Great! So when 14th DL says 13th DL declared independence, he does not know what he is talking about even though Declarative Theory supports such act 

 

So we have to take your word over DL's on how Tibet should declare independence 

 

All these comments to just defend Nehru when even Sardar Patel warned him 

 

The dope you smoke must be effective 

Yep, the 14th Dalai Llama doesnt know what he is talking about if he claims the 13th one did- because there was no claim of sovereignty on a given date (independence day) that was sent to multiple nations. Hence no declaration.

You don't have to take my word or the DL's word. You simply have to see if the criteria that has been satistfied by EVERY SINGLE NATION in the last 100 years who declared independence against the wishes of its sovereign, has been met or not.

And in case of Tibet, it hasn't. 

Simple.

This is international law. Not your opinion or mine. Correct paperwork has to be filed. Every nation knows this. Tibet does too. So them not doing it, is Dalai Llama's fault.

 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yep, the 14th Dalai Llama doesnt know what he is talking about if he claims the 13th one did- because there was no claim of sovereignty on a given date (independence day) that was sent to multiple nations. Hence no declaration.

You don't have to take my word or the DL's word. You simply have to see if the criteria that has been satistfied by EVERY SINGLE NATION in the last 100 years who declared independence against the wishes of its sovereign, has been met or not.

And in case of Tibet, it hasn't. 

Simple.

This is international law. Not your opinion or mine. Correct paperwork has to be filed. Every nation knows this. Tibet does too. So them not doing it, is Dalai Llama's fault.

 

Declaration theory  

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

Declaration theory  

Criterias met. Not put into action.

 

[zen]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

Criterias met. Not put into action.

 

Put into action

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

Put into action

Nope. Same document not filed with multiple nations. Hence criteria not put into action.

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Muloghonto

[zen]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Nope. Same document not filed with multiple nations. Hence criteria not put into action.

 

Then you dont understand declaration theory

 

"According to declarative theory, the political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."

Edited March 4, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Then you dont understand declaration theory

 

"According to declarative theory, the political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."

Except, by itself of course. 

Filing documents with multiple nations doesnt mean they accept your claim. It means YOU have filed your declaration of independence with multiple nations, indicating you wish to be seen as a sovereign. Its a petition, not an automatic. But it still has to happen.

You don't understand declarative theory if you think satisfying all criterias mean you are automatically independent....you have to satisfy all criterias AND make a formal declaration of independence.The latter part, requires you to file it with multiple nations. No filing, no declaration. Simple.

 

[zen]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

Except, by itself of course. 

Filing documents with multiple nations doesnt mean they accept your claim. It means YOU have filed your declaration of independence with multiple nations, indicating you wish to be seen as a sovereign. Its a petition, not an automatic. But it still has to happen.

You don't understand declarative theory if you think satisfying all criterias mean you are automatically independent....you have to satisfy all criterias AND make a formal declaration of independence.The latter part, requires you to file it with multiple nations. No filing, no declaration. Simple.

 

Pointless argument 

[Muloghonto]

And if this was an issue from a few weeks ago, you could argue that 'Well the DL didnt know proper protocols, so cut him some slack, he will do it the right way soon'. He has had SIXTY YEARS to file it properly. And still didnt. So fault is with him.

 

This is international law. Not your backyard cricket game. Strict protocols are applied and EVERY nation has met those obligations. Tibet has not.

 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, zen said:

Pointless argument 

Not at all, in legal perspective. Law is about details. If you mess up the details, you get screwed by the law. Same with Tibet. messed up the details, screwed by the law. The mess-up is Dalai Llama's fault.

 

[zen]

19 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Not at all, in legal perspective. Law is about details. If you mess up the details, you get screwed by the law. Same with Tibet. messed up the details, screwed by the law. The mess-up is Dalai Llama's fault.

 

Not screwed up by law but politicians in the neighbourhood 

 

It is in Ind interest to have Tibet independent and it failed to take yhe initiative

Edited March 4, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, zen said:

Not screwed up by law but politicians in the neighbourhood 

 

It is in Ind interest to have Tibet independent and it failed to take yhe initiative

Screwed up by law. 

Tibet didnt file independence declaration with multiple nations. Hence not valid.

Without proper declaration, India cannot take intiative without being the 'Pakistan' of the region.

 

[zen]

11 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Screwed up by law. 

Tibet didnt file independence declaration with multiple nations. Hence not valid.

Without proper declaration, India cannot take intiative without being the 'Pakistan' of the region.

 

Again declarative theory so not required to file .... it was up to Nehru to sense opportunity 

 

Sardar Patel to Nehru: There can be no doubt that during the period covered by this correspondence the Chinese must have been concentrating for an onslaught on Tibet. The final action of the Chinese, in my judgement, is little short of perfidy. The tragedy of it is that the Tibetans put faith in us; they chose to be guided by us; and we have been unable to get them out of the meshes of Chinese diplomacy or Chinese malevolence

Edited March 4, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Again declarative theory so not required to file .... it was up to Nehru to sense opportunity 

 

Declarative theory doesnt indicate a nation is automatically independent if it meets the criteria. It HAS to declare independence.  As the term 'declarative theory' indicates...it requires a declaration. 

And declaration is not valid, unless it is filed with multiple nations.
 

Tibet didnt follow proper protocols and has not for SIXTY YEARS.

No excuse for the DL on this.

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Muloghonto

[zen]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Declarative theory doesnt indicate a nation is automatically independent if it meets the criteria. It HAS to declare independence.  As the term 'declarative theory' indicates...it requires a declaration. 

And declaration is not valid, unless it is filed with multiple nations.
 

Tibet didnt follow proper protocols and has not for SIXTY YEARS.

No excuse for the DL on this.

 

Wrong interpretation of DT

 

"According to declarative theory, the political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."

 

And Tibet declared 

 

 

No excuse for Nehru

 

Sardar Patel to Nehru: There can be no doubt that during the period covered by this correspondence the Chinese must have been concentrating for an onslaught on Tibet. The final action of the Chinese, in my judgement, is little short of perfidy. The tragedy of it is that the Tibetans put faith in us; they chose to be guided by us; and we have been unable to get them out of the meshes of Chinese diplomacy or Chinese malevolence

Edited

Edited March 4, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Wrong interpretation of DT

 

"According to declarative theory, the political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."

 

And Tibet declared 

 

 

No excuse for Nehru

 

Sardar Patel to Nehru: There can be no doubt that during the period covered by this correspondence the Chinese must have been concentrating for an onslaught on Tibet. The final action of the Chinese, in my judgement, is little short of perfidy. The tragedy of it is that the Tibetans put faith in us; they chose to be guided by us; and we have been unable to get them out of the meshes of Chinese diplomacy or Chinese malevolence

Edited

If Tibet declared, show us the document that Tibet submitted to multiple nations and state which nations.

You keep running away from the fact that if just meeting criterias for declarative theory, then all states of India are independent. Declarative theory needs a declaration. Tinted declaration does not count coz they didn't expressed my claim sovereignty or file it with any nation. Pretty simple

[zen]

11 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

If Tibet declared, show us the document that Tibet submitted to multiple nations and state which nations.

You keep running away from the fact that if just meeting criterias for declarative theory, then all states of India are independent. Declarative theory needs a declaration. Tinted declaration does not count coz they didn't expressed my claim sovereignty or file it with any nation. Pretty simple

Already addressed 

 

1. Tibet declaration of independence

2. Tibet's treaty with Mongolia

3. Nepal listing Tibet as a country

4. Tibet using its own passport, national flag, etc

5.  Tibet's appeal to UN (and to multiple nations through UN)

6. Tibet's govt in exile 

 

Your Chaprasi like points are irrelavant to the discussion and also against the requirements under DT 

 

It is clear that Tibet functioned as an independent country promting China to send troops into Tibet and making it sign the 17 point program .... Tibet chose to be guided by Ind .... Nehru was made aware of the threats looming over Tibet but he chose to instead back China in UN

 

I will also take this opportunity to apologize to Tibet on how the Nehru govt handled its issue

 

"So today is Sunday here"

 

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by zen

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Already addressed 

1. Tibet declaration of independence

Nope.Not official. Protocol not followed, you ran away from this fact.

Quote

2. Tibet's treaty with Mongolia

Irrelevant. Making treaties with another country is not declaration of independence. 

Quote

3. Nepal listing Tibet as a country

Tibet is a country. An autonomous country. Nepal having treaties doesnt make Tibet a sovereign country.

Quote

4. Tibet using its own passport, national flag, etc

 

Only a few exiles. And has no official diplomatic status. Tibet also doesnt have a passport, its a 'variant' of the Indian passport, legally speaking, in the eyes of other nations. As usual, you expose your ignorance.

 

Quote

5.  Tibet's appeal to UN (and to multiple nations through UN)

Appeal doesnt make you free or count as a declaration of independence.

Quote

6. Tibet's govt in exile 

..are just a buch of dissidents, nothing more.

 

Quote

 

Your Chaprasi like points are irrelavant to the discussion and also against the requirements under DT 

 

Keep learning, but the simple fact you run away from, is DT requires declaration and Tibet has not met the criteria. I've dismantled every single attempt of yours to imply Tibet has declared independence - first you said standard declaration doesnt matter, then you said the speech by Dalai Llama is a declaration, then you learnt about DT but now, you are ignoring the fact that Declarative Theory, under the definition of the very term, requires a declaration and if it doesn't, then every single Indian state is already free. You run away from that too.

 

Quote

 

It is clear that Tibet functioned as an independent country promting China to send troops into Tibet and making it sign the 17 point program .... Tibet chose to be guided by Ind .... Nehru was made aware of the threats looming over Tibet but he chose to instead back China in UN

Yep, Tibet was an autonomous province of China, that saw weakness in China and decieded to act like an independent state. When China was pissed off about that and came with troops to 'remind Tibet who is boss', Tibet hoped Nehru would intervene, like it has for hundreds of years (playing off its master against its neighbours when in a pinch by either) but without official declaration of independence, Nehru would be conducting terrorism in another sovereign's territory, so Nehru, wisely, did nothing.

 

I would also like to apologize to the Tibetans here- on behalf of their demigod-king, who failed in his duties, especially the simple duty of officially declaring independence, like every single nation that has broken away form its sovereign has, over the last 100+ years, despite having 50+ years to do so.

So no excuse for the DL to not follow official protocol.

You also ran away from that above fact.

But keep learning some more, as you've shown throughout this thread that you are learning the basic facts of international law. When you come to the part about stringent protocols on declaration of independence, make sure you learn the criterias.

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Muloghonto