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Blue Panther

Umesh yadav-pretty impressive.

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Bhai PK can swing the ball both ways with the new ball. What can VK do with the ball. That is why an optimum pace is required when he does not do much with the ball and depends more on line and length. PK has only played 6 tests right now. Munaf Patel also had very good stats in his first 6 test matches and Sreesanth had even better strike rate for his first 11 test matches with SR in 40s, so don't be any illusion. It is just a start for PK. He needs to do it lot more consistently and in any condition.
:hmmmm2: I was talking about Bond.

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VRV singh used to have that. He used to bowl around 140k. But he was gun barrell straight. Kevin Pietersen clobbered him for 26 runs in one over. I am not saying Umesh is like VRV. He looks better than him. But he has a long long way to go. Fast bowling's number one enemy is injury. Even though we assume our coaches or management discourage them to bowl fast' date= thing is they themselves think they should bowl with control after they get hit around in a few matches bowling fast. or their body simply cannot take the load and start bowling slower.
So what? Gayle celebrated Brett Lee to 25 runs in an over in 2009 T20 WC, what it proves. Every bowler goes for runs. Kambli celebrated Warne for 22 runs. VRV's problem was his fitness and VRV was not just gun barrel straight. He used to move it both ways. You dont expect bowlers to swing and move the ball on Indian tracks. Even Zak did not do it in WC. He got most of his wickets with the old ball. If you are asking them to swing at pace on Indian roads than it is not always possible. PK swings it because he has a different writs action but then he loses pace. You are right that injury is a problem, but this the point we need to address. The same issue was raised by Aakash Chopra in regards to what happened in case of Munaf Patel. fast bowlers always get injured. It is not new even slow medium bowler like PK had a few injuries. Issue is insecurity of place in Indian team. This happened to Munaf. To maintain his place in the team, he slowed down as he was insecure that if once he is injured he will be out and will never be picked. Actually, we do not have good enough system in place which ensures that our fast bowlers whenever get injured are taken care of well, recuperate well from injury, gain their strength and fitness back, and are encouraged to back their strength and not slowed down. OTher than that our dead pitches also discourage them to bowl fast. Look at RP Singh, he was not a bad bowler 2 years back. He did not do well on flat pitches in India and was dropped, but BCCI did not do anything of note keep him in the frame fitness wise and did not ensure that he improves and works on his bowling till the time he is out of team so that he can come back as a better bowler. There is no system like that in India where the bowlers who are out as well as potential bowlers can be worked upon. We have NCA for the sake which has become just a fitness certificate clinic for injured players and our specialized academies started last year just organize random camp for 21 days in a year. We cannot produce and save our fast bowlers with this system. England did not have any fast bowlers in early 2000 except Gough who could have been called genuine quick, but they encouraged genuine pacers and gave them enough space to work and facitliies even in off season or whenever they are not with the team and as a result they got bowlers like Harmison, Jones, Anderson, Broad, Tremlett, Bressnan, etc. They improved over the period of time. England now have one of the most talented pool of fast bowlers. Watch Bresnan of 2006 who was thrashed by Srilanka all over the place and now, watch Broad of 2007 and now. There is steady improvement there. This is the thing we have not been able to achieve.

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:hmmmm2: I was talking about Bond.
Oh I posted wrong post to you. IMO. Bond was even better than Steyn at his full fitness. Unfortunately, he was never away form injuries. Cannot forget his spells against India and Australia WC 2003. He was a treat to watch at that time.

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PK will never become international standard by that yardstick. He is averaging 25 in tests. You are confused with good bowling and fast bowling. Not all fast bowlers are international standard. Example Sami. Not all slow bowlers are below international standard. Example guys like Tremlett' date=' Asif, Praveen. vk is failing not because of lack of pace but lack of skills.[/quote'] Bhai PK can swing the ball both ways with the new ball. What can VK do with the ball. That is why an optimum pace is required when he does not do much with the ball and depends more on line and length. PK has only played 6 tests right now. Munaf Patel also had very good stats in his first 6 test matches and Sreesanth had even better strike rate for his first 11 test matches with SR in 40s, so don't be any illusion. It is just a start for PK. He needs to do it lot more consistently and in any condition.

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Fact is his average speed was as good as Praveen Kumar. We are merely talking about speed here. Not bounce or swing. He is able to bowl at less than 80 mph and still pose a problem for batsmen. It is less than Vinay kumar's average speed. That is what Zaheer also mentioned. You have to understand what works for you and what doesn't work for you. Our bowlers don't have a clue about that except may be Praveen Kumar. He rarely goes outside his comfort zone hence he was more consistent than Ishant and Sreesanth.
During second innings, he was putting a lot of effort and bowling over 85mph consistently. Sure he was slow for most of the time. At that time he might have felt that he needs to run in and put as much effort as he can. At that time he was certainly not that slow and I believe that he got injured while doing that only. This is what Indian bowlers lacked most of the time. Commies said that when ball was new, they need to run fast and put extra effort. They just never did that. Look at Dale Steyn. He bowls around 83-84mph on SA pitches because he doesn't need to bowl fast on helpful tracks. However when needed he bowls fast. He was lot quicker in India. Our bowlers just bowl at same pace again and again. tremlett.jpg

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Umesh is gonna play his next game tmrw. He should be persisted with even if he goes for runs in this match because he definitely has the potential to be a good bowler in the future. If some idiot bumps this thread and makes fun of him tmrw i am gonna show this to him :finger::finger::finger: And gonna say this: Phack off u line and length supporting tiny idiot.:finger:

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If you are asking them to swing at pace on Indian roads than it is not always possible.
Rkt, two points - a. swing does not have much to do with the pitch. It depends on weather, moisture in atmosphere, and release of delivery (as you have noted is the case with PK's wrist...same goes for the original master Kapsy) b. please stop referring to Indian pitches as roads...there are some roads but not all of them are. They may not exactly be seamer friendly but that dunn make them roads.
You are right that injury is a problem' date=' but this the point we need to address. The same issue was raised by Aakash Chopra in regards to what happened in case of Munaf Patel. fast bowlers always get injured. It is not new even slow medium bowler like PK had a few injuries. Issue is insecurity of place in Indian team. This happened to Munaf. To maintain his place in the team, he slowed down as he was insecure that if once he is injured he will be out and will never be picked.[/quote']Agreed about Munna. However, I think Munna has become a better bowler by cutting down his pace...sad but true. I don't think he could've played for India just bowling fast and breaking down more often than not. By learning to maintain a disciplined lnl he has molded himself into a neat ODI bowler. He may not cut well for Tests though coz he dunn have that zing in him anymore. I also get the feeling NCA works well for batsmen more than bowlers. I dunno traditionally we have always been a good batting system but never a good fast bowling system. Maybe we need some of our erstwhile pacers like Srinath and Kapsy to get involved in mentoring the new kids. And we need to sign up Wasim, Waqar or even Aaqib as our bowling coach instead of Eric Simmons or other non Asians. Somehow I feel the Asian fellas will be able to relate to the problems and mindsets of our fast bowling talents better than the non Asians

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Virat Kohli Views on Umesh Yadav: Lauding young pacer Umesh Yadav, Kohli said it is great to have a speedster who can deliver yorkers in the death overs. "We encourage Umesh to use his pace and express himself. It is an advantage that he can bowl fast in the death overs. Yorkers in death overs with good pace is always an advantage," he said. Kohli felt the team's fielding is also improving even though a lot still needs to be done.

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Virat Kohli Views on Umesh Yadav: Lauding young pacer Umesh Yadav, Kohli said it is great to have a speedster who can deliver yorkers in the death overs. "We encourage Umesh to use his pace and express himself. It is an advantage that he can bowl fast in the death overs. Yorkers in death overs with good pace is always an advantage," he said. Kohli felt the team's fielding is also improving even though a lot still needs to be done.
:two_thumbs_up:

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Rkt, two points - a. swing does not have much to do with the pitch. It depends on weather, moisture in atmosphere, and release of delivery (as you have noted is the case with PK's wrist...same goes for the original master Kapsy) b. please stop referring to Indian pitches as roads...there are some roads but not all of them are. They may not exactly be seamer friendly but that dunn make them roads.
I Know swing depends on bowling action and weather conditions rather than wicket. Firstly Indian conditions do not suit swing much because ball does not swing after 5-10 overs. This is the reason why PK has poor ODI record in India as he does not get much swing here.
Agreed about Munna. However, I think Munna has become a better bowler by cutting down his pace...sad but true. I don't think he could've played for India just bowling fast and breaking down more often than not. By learning to maintain a disciplined lnl he has molded himself into a neat ODI bowler. He may not cut well for Tests though coz he dunn have that zing in him anymore.
Regarding Munna, I don't see how he has improved. He was much better when he bowled fast. He has tried to be accurate but I don't really find him that immaculate in his line and length. He gives one 4 ball more often than not in every over in ODIs which we saw in England and then he is not an attacking option and his wickets mostly come when batsmen attack him. He dropped his pace to not get injured and maintain his place in the team. This is called taking your place for granted and delivering less than what your ability is. Don't be in any illusion, he is one of the most talented fast bowler we had found but at that time he was raw and was lacking fitness and that is what he had to do which is to work on his fitness but he opted for an easy option and started trundling. You know in his whole career he had only one real bowling related injury when he bowled fast which kept him of 2006 SA tests, but that injury too was not serious. He Had injuries before he was selected for Team India but none of those injuries were bowling related. He had 2 shoulder injuries which did not affect his pace at all as those injuries happened before he made his test debut against England and those both shoulder injuries happened while fielding, one of which was in an India A match, like knee injuries happened to Pujara while fielding.

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You can be more wayward if you bowl pace at 90 mph. Look at KPs dssmissal' date=' quicker so picks up wicket with not great ball, as reflex times are challenged[/quote'] and more over you are quite unpredictable if you are not accurate. thats why tait , lee etc are wicket takers.

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Has definitely got pace, will learn the control as he plays more. The best thing is the wickets he is picking. The more he does , more confident he will get and start puting in the additional effort needed to bowl even quicker which he definitely is capable of. Well done to him.

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147ks on an indian pitch' date=' fastest indian at home in an intl match?[/quote']what has pitch got to do with the measuring of speed? Isn't the ball measured at the release from hand, and hence it shouldn't matter whether you hurl it in sahara or antarctica or himalayas or netherlands, innit? Unless of course if the bowler himself holds back from bowling fast because he believes it won't do any good bowling fast on an Indian pitch

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more importantly, Yadav took wickets in the middle overs of set batsmen, we mainly struggle in this regard over the years. He hurried the batsmen with his pace and kept them on their toes and induced errors from 2 set batsmen in KP and Patel. It certainly made a difference of 30-40 runs in the end total as our spinners looked a bit ineffective on this track.

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what has pitch got to do with the measuring of speed? Isn't the ball measured at the release from hand, and hence it shouldn't matter whether you hurl it in sahara or antarctica or himalayas or netherlands, innit? Unless of course if the bowler himself holds back from bowling fast because he believes it won't do any good bowling fast on an Indian pitch
Of course the pitch does matter. On an unresponsive pitch, bowlers dont go at full tilt where as a track with help for pacers does have pacers going at full throttle and putting in the extra effort.

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Of course the pitch does matter. On an unresponsive pitch' date=' bowlers dont go at full tilt where as a track with help for pacers does have pacers going at full throttle and putting in the extra effort.[/quote'] There is two aspects of bowling. One is on a bit fast and bouncy track where bowler can hit regular lengths. The second is a no bounce and no pace pitch like we see in Delhi before that many time. In that case, a genuine quick bowlers strategy should be to bowl fuller length and straight to get LBW and bowled victims.

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It doesn't matter if he's wayward or cant swing the ball and is expensive as long as he can pick up wickets consistently. Indias biggest weakness in ODIs has always been that they can't pick up wickets in the middle overs. Just look at the last world cup VS australia and sri lanka india bowled and fielded well but couldn't pick up wickets and both teams managed to put up big scores.

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Don't erase your memories folks!!! Abu Nechim Ahmed . If Umesh without much success in IPl can do well in ODI's , i'm sure Abu Nechim, being one of the Top wicket taker in CLT20 would have done well too. He is ignored because he is from Assam. Hope sense prevails, he is just 22, needs to be given exposure with the likes of Umesh, Varun & Shami.

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Don't erase your memories folks!!! Abu Nechim Ahmed . If Umesh without much success in IPl can do well in ODI's , i'm sure Abu Nechim, being one of the Top wicket taker in CLT20 would have done well too. He is ignored because he is from Assam. Hope sense prevails, he is just 22, needs to be given exposure with the likes of Umesh, Varun & Shami.
Nechim deserves a chance. At least should've got picked for challenger trophy. Hope selectors have an eye on him.

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Don't erase your memories folks!!! Abu Nechim Ahmed . If Umesh without much success in IPl can do well in ODI's ' date= i'm sure Abu Nechim, being one of the Top wicket taker in CLT20 would have done well too. He is ignored because he is from Assam. Hope sense prevails, he is just 22, needs to be given exposure with the likes of Umesh, Varun & Shami.
where did you pull off that logic from :cantstop: .

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where did you pull off that logic from :cantstop: .
Well first of all it has not got to do anything with LOGIC, it's called common sense, see the stats for yourself, Umesh's IPL 4 performance, vs Nechim's CLT20 Performance. Now we all know Umesh's FC or OD record domestically is not good, he is selected because he can bowl 145+. Same sense can be applied to Nechim, who is equally good in terms of Pace, Plus he can swing the ball and is more of a skidder. The reason to bring this thought was because , just a week back everyone vouched for Nechim, i'm fearing the selectors might just forget about nechim.

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I am sure nobody who understands cricket wud be damn impressed by VK as against Yadav.. VK got edges when batsmen went behind him and tried to hit him....I mean he ws lucky to get at least 2 wickets today
:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: :facepalm:

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It doesn't matter if he's wayward or cant swing the ball and is expensive as long as he can pick up wickets consistently. Indias biggest weakness in ODIs has always been that they can't pick up wickets in the middle overs. Just look at the last world cup VS australia and sri lanka india bowled and fielded well but couldn't pick up wickets and both teams managed to put up big scores.
If you can't move the ball then at his pace he is a sitting duck for any decent international batsman. You need to bowl over 150 if you cannot move the ball to be able to knock international batsmen over. Back in the early-mid nineties India had a real pacy bowler who bowled just as fast as Srinath...his name was Prashant Vaidya. I got the opportunity to bat against him. The guy was fast...much faster than Iqbal Siddiqui, Salil Ankola, etc my friend who played for Vidarbha said but he had no movement. The moment a batsman adjusts his reflexes to suit the bowler's pace, Vaidya became a sitting duck. No wonder he didn't play more than a few ODIs for India

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If you can't move the ball then at his pace he is a sitting duck for any decent international batsman. You need to bowl over 150 if you cannot move the ball to be able to knock international batsmen over. Back in the early-mid nineties India had a real pacy bowler who bowled just as fast as Srinath...his name was Prashant Vaidya. I got the opportunity to bat against him. The guy was fast...much faster than Iqbal Siddiqui, Salil Ankola, etc my friend who played for Vidarbha said but he had no movement. The moment a batsman adjusts his reflexes to suit the bowler's pace, Vaidya became a sitting duck. No wonder he didn't play more than a few ODIs for India
Good bowlers create doubts in batsmen's mind. Guys like Sami never did well despite pace because he is so predictable. Steven Finn struggled despite pace because he was far easily predictable.

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Good bowlers create doubts in batsmen's mind. Guys like Sami never did well despite pace because he is so predictable. Steven Finn struggled despite pace because he was far easily predictable.
David Johnson was another such fast bowler with no movement...Karnataka Ranji guys would claim he was faster than Srinath and he did seem so in his only Test against Aus but he had no movement whatsoever...carted all around

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If you can't move the ball then at his pace he is a sitting duck for any decent international batsman. You need to bowl over 150 if you cannot move the ball to be able to knock international batsmen over. Back in the early-mid nineties India had a real pacy bowler who bowled just as fast as Srinath...his name was Prashant Vaidya. I got the opportunity to bat against him. The guy was fast...much faster than Iqbal Siddiqui, Salil Ankola, etc my friend who played for Vidarbha said but he had no movement. The moment a batsman adjusts his reflexes to suit the bowler's pace, Vaidya became a sitting duck. No wonder he didn't play more than a few ODIs for India
Agree with that. Low 140s on its own is not got to worry international batsmen.

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Good bowlers create doubts in batsmen's mind. Guys like Sami never did well despite pace because he is so predictable. Steven Finn struggled despite pace because he was far easily predictable.
That's where Dale Steyn trumps everyone and a quality like Jimmy Anderson will always struggle. On Yadav, for all his lack of control sometimes, he has a pretty decent yorker, if he can fine tune that yorker at good pace and bowl at will then will be half the requirements India's Test bowling unit need.

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Good bowlers create doubts in batsmen's mind. Guys like Sami never did well despite pace because he is so predictable. Steven Finn struggled despite pace because he was far easily predictable.
Sami had a good ODI record! Average in the 20s economey rate under 5 and a strike rate around 30. I would take that any day of the weak. But the point im making is we need a 3rd seamer that can just bowl fast and unpredictable in constrast to the other 2 bowlers who are most likely medium pacers bowling nice and tiddy and usually toothless when the ball isn't moving. Im not saying umesh is a great because he isn't and will never be but if he can keep his pace up and keep his strike rate under 45 he definately should stay in the squad. We have too many medium pace swing bowlers. He's the kind of bowler we always lacked.

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Agree with that. Low 140s on its own is not got to worry international batsmen.
That's where Dale Steyn trumps everyone and a quality like Jimmy Anderson will always struggle. On Yadav, for all his lack of control sometimes, he has a pretty decent yorker, if he can fine tune that yorker at good pace and bowl at will then will be half the requirements India's Test bowling unit need.
Yadav's pace is more or less manageable at that level. This pace alone won't work for you. You'll always remain a rookie bowler if you have just pace. Like I said earlier pace is base for a bowler. Bowling at 140s is something like starting point. From their on you can learn, acquire skills or improve existing skills and gain experience. Moreover Indian pacers are generally slow in acquiring skills. I would like to see him playing for 2-3 years and if he really improves then he can become a good bowler. If you don't have pace, then it means you lack basic thing. From there on it's hard to build on. You have to really good to be successful from there. You need to skillful like Zaheer or Asif or McGrath to challenge quality batsmen. But when you have pace, you can get wicket with lesser skills. It's tougher to be a successful medium pace bowler.

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Yadav's pace is more or less manageable at that level. This pace alone won't work for you. You'll always remain a rookie bowler if you have just pace. Like I said earlier pace is base for a bowler. Bowling at 140s is something like starting point. From their on you can learn, acquire skills or improve existing skills and gain experience. Moreover Indian pacers are generally slow in acquiring skills. I would like to see him playing for 2-3 years and if he really improves then he can become a good bowler. If you don't have pace, then it means you lack basic thing. From there on it's hard to build on. You have to really good to be successful from there. You need to skillful like Zaheer or Asif or McGrath to challenge quality batsmen. But when you have pace, you can get wicket with lesser skills. It's tougher to be a successful medium pace bowler.
That was my point.

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