Harbhajan takes a dig at Ashwin, says spinner’s failure reason behind India’s loss

[putrevus]

8 hours ago, bahubali said:

That match was won by pandya performance where he took 5 min wkts within the span of 21 balls and also scored 67 whom you criticize always. Kohli did bat well but he could have don much better as he was in form batsmen but he failed few of the crucial moments. BTW I was just highlighting your other points that only due to opener and Ashwin failure we lost the series, whereas in the current ashes series also AUs opener failed miserably and Lyon dint set the stage on fire still AUs manage to draw.

I criticize Pandya because he is not shown improvement, one swallow doesn't make a summer.I am not against Pandya, what I have not seen is his improvement in tests and our opener Rahul has been shoddy even in India too .He stunk in four different continents over two years.Rahul and Vijay have most experience after Cook and Warner.

 

Kohli scored 500 plus runs in that series which is pretty good.It may not be Smithesque but it should have helped atleast  win couple more matches.

 

Ashwin failed to make any impact and took 3 wickets compared to Ali who took 8 that 4th test.Ali has outbowled Ashwin in two straight series . Unlike Smith and Kohli who are of same pedigree with Smith being far better in tests.

 

Ashwin is a far better spinner than Ali and he has no business of being outbowled by Ali. This is not the first time Ashwin has failed to make an impact in overseries test matches.Kumble and Bhajji in prime might not have won that many matches but I don't recollect them being out bowled by SENA country spinners.Ali and Lyon have consistently outbowled Ashwin.

 

If you list the reasons for losses in SA and England. My first reason  would  be openers and second would be Ashwin.Let me know yours.

[bahubali]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

If you list the reasons for losses in SA and England. My first reason  would  be openers and second would be Ashwin.Let me know

1 pathetic captaincy

2 changing and chopping of main players like pujara and rahane and making them insecure.

3 SA and Eng we don't see usually high score affair and individual brilliance can win you series just like ABD played 2 crucial inning in SA though kohli was highest scorer in SA but he failed to deliver at crucial moment that's why his 48 in 3rd test was much better knock than 153 in second test.. Similarly in eng he got out in one test right at the time when we had to chase some 70 odd runs and pandya was there.

4. Not playing practice matches and even cancelling some of them shows arrogance and stubborness.

[Gollum]

9 hours ago, putrevus said:

Ashwin failed to make any impact and took 3 wickets compared to Ali who took 8 that 4th test.Ali has outbowled Ashwin in two straight series .s.

Ashwin was injured before Southampton test, TM knew it and still played him. Kohli admitted the same post match. 

Ashwin did give us a winning position in the 1st test (Edgbaston) but we failed to close it out. In Centurion test again he bowled well but had 5-6 dropped catches in one innings otherwise that would have been a 10fer, he outbowled Maharaj that series. He did his job in Adelaide test which we won. 

Ali has a special love affair with India, we donate him wickets instead of him earning them. Same Indian team makes Herath look like a mediocre bowler but against Ali, Chase, Lyon we offer little resistance. Watch how other teams treat him. Ashwin hardly played in 2014 tour, bowled very little, Moeen's 6fer came in a match where Jadeja was our lone spinner.... 

Quote

Ashwin is a far better spinner than Ali and he has no business of being outbowled by Ali. This is not the first time Ashwin has failed to make an impact in overseries test matches.Kumble and Bhajji in prime might not have won that many matches but I don't recollect them being out bowled by SENA country spinners.Ali and Lyon have consistently outbowled Ashwin.

Except Southampton test last year Ashwin did well in this cycle. Not his fault if others couldn't step up. Apart from Chandra our spinners have never been matchwinners overseas, only support cast. Ashwin did provide plenty of support this time, once each in RSA/Eng/Aus. You also need some luck to get the wins, had we taken the 9 chances in Centurion or had Kohli-Pandya finished the job in Eng 1st test, we would look at it differently. 

Kumble and Bhajji often sucked in SENA, check how Kumble fared overseas in 90s. There would be series where he would pick 1 wicket per match those days. Mediocrities like Paul Harris have been the reason of our downfall in SENA, opponent spinners didn't do that well because our team was the GOAT against spin bowling unlike these days when we can hardly play off spin. That's why instead of comparing we should see what our guys did...you do agree that bowling to batsmen like Viru, Gambo, RD, VVS, SRT, Dada offers more challenges for SENA spinners as opposed to against Kohli, Che and 5 other random mediocre batsmen.   

Lyon and Ashwin went head to head in 3 tests (not Adelaide where we played Karn) in Australia in 2014-15, identical numbers. In Adelaide last December Ash went 6/149 @1.7 while Lyon went 8/205 @2.9. How exactly did one outbowl the other? 

Maharaj is the greatest RSA test spinner who outbowled Lyon in both series they went against each other. Ashwin comprehensively outbowled him in his own turf. 

Quote

If you list the reasons for losses in SA and England. My first reason  would  be openers and second would be Ashwin.Let me know yours.

Catching in both countries, especially RSA where we dropped 12 in the 2 tests we lost. Parthiv Patel special credit. Dhawan, Kohli too dropped many crucial catches. We have many threads keeping count of all that. 

 

Poor team selection, eg 2 spinners on Lord's greentop under overcast conditions.

 

Main quicks getting injured before Eng test series.

 

Bad luck with tosses. Lost 7 out of 8....we aren't that good a team to overcome toss disadvantage, not yet.

 

Poor 4th innings team. Need massive luck or some ATG knocks to chase 300+ totals but we failed in chasing a few 190-245 range totals. We are the worst 4th innings team since 2014 including in Asia, batting average 17-18... dedicated thread for that as well. 

 

Poor pre-tour prep. Arrived 5 days before Cape Town test (courtesy longish SL home series and Kohli's wedding) and didn't even have a single outdoor net session because of inclement weather...spent the time sightseeing and shopping. ODIs/T20s can never be warm ups for red ball cricket as happened in England. Even a team like Pakistan prepares better before these overseas tests. Next time BCCI should delink white ball and red ball cricket, schedule a test against Ireland and then couple of 4 day matches (FC status) against good county sides (we can offer to pay for them to field their best players)...then see how we play. None of that optional practice that current TM lived by in last cycle. 

 

More reasons but you listed a couple, here are 6. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Agree with @putrevus about Kohli, he was magnificent in both RSA and Eng. Not his fault if other batsmen (barring a couple here and there) collectively shat their pants. Just wish he had finished the run chase in Edgbaston, we had no business losing that. Even Southampton where we were 3/125 chasing 244...both Kohli and Rahane well set, neither could convert his 50 to even a 80-90 that might have done the job. Won't talk about the 2 missed opportunities in RSA because all other specialist batsmen failed, even had Kohli stood tall he wasn't winning them alone. Overall what Kohli did deserves credit, ATG series both.

 

No need to bring the Smith comparisons. Just because Smith is the 2nd greatest test batsman after Bradman, doesn't make Kohli's achievements any less. What Smith has done even the likes of Sachin, Lara, Kallis, Sanga, Ponting, Dravid, ABDV wouldn't come close (and Kohli will finish his career in the category of these legends)...we are looking at a freak here, born once in 100 years. This is how I imagine Bradman would have been like in the 30s. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Gollum

[putrevus]

13 hours ago, bahubali said:

1 pathetic captaincy

2 changing and chopping of main players like pujara and rahane and making them insecure.

3 SA and Eng we don't see usually high score affair and individual brilliance can win you series just like ABD played 2 crucial inning in SA though kohli was highest scorer in SA but he failed to deliver at crucial moment that's why his 48 in 3rd test was much better knock than 153 in second test.. Similarly in eng he got out in one test right at the time when we had to chase some 70 odd runs and pandya was there.

4. Not playing practice matches and even cancelling some of them shows arrogance and stubborness.

I don't agree with your reasoning at all. The selections were bad in one test Lords where they selected Kuldeep otherwise selections were spot on.

 

Pujara and Rahane's non selections for some tests was right one.Look Pujara was not even a factor in WI.Before Soutampton Pujara was non factor in overseas tours since 2013.

 

153 was not a winning score becuase none of the batsmen showed up.Why do you expect Kohli to always show up and pull India out of trouble.

 

Rahane and Pujara played in county cricket  what did they do in England.

 

I will never excuse Kohli for not delivering in 2019 Semi finals.He simply cannot fail in the spot and expect everyone to just overlook it.

 

But other than that Kohli has been very consistent in tests too.He might not have won matches in Australia but he did play important role in Melbourne test by scoring that 82 and setting up Indian total with Pujara.

Edited September 19, 2019 by putrevus

[bahubali]

More than batsmen ship his leadership is questionable as mentioned in my previous post. How can you drop core of your batting and even VC because of they play slow or inconsistency in case of rahane when you know they are th core of batting. Don't forget the one test which you won in SA rahaney played crucial role and again historic series win in AUs was on back pujara and rahaney batting where kohli was completely MIA. For wc SF loss he was sole responsible first of all choking in all importan matches 2 back to back WC SF and CT final whom you worship as goat and secondly selecting a mediocre fast bowler ahead of highest wkt taker , sending dhoni at 7 th position and playing 2 spinners in ultra swinging condition. I blame kohli the batsmmen only coz he choke when we really need him whether it's test or important world event. Have you seen Smith or AUs complaining and crying about their one batsmen team, a good leader knows how to utilize resout what he have rather than winning and crying and abusing using youngsters for their failure when you yourself suppot a perennial failure like dhoni(after15), Karthik and rayadu( for giving chance for 2 years and than eventually dropout just before WC).

[bahubali]

Just now, bahubali said:

More than batsmen ship his leadership is questionable as mentioned in my previous post. How can you drop core of your batting and even VC because of they play slow or inconsistency in case of rahane when you know they are th core of batting. Don't forget the one test which you won in SA rahaney played crucial role and again historic series win in AUs was on back pujara and rahaney batting where kohli was completely MIA. For wc SF loss he was sole responsible first of all choking in all importan matches 2 back to back WC SF and CT final whom you worship as goat and secondly selecting a mediocre fast bowler ahead of highest wkt taker , sending dhoni at 7 th position and playing 2 spinners in ultra swinging condition. I blame kohli the batsmmen only coz he choke when we really need him whether it's test or important world event. Have you seen Smith or AUs complaining and crying about their one batsmen team, a good leader knows how to utilize resout what he have rather than winning and crying and abusing using youngsters for their failure when you yourself suppot a perennial failure like dhoni(after15), Karthik and rayadu( for giving chance for 2 years and than eventually dropout just before WC).

@putrevus in response to your previous post 

[putrevus]

23 hours ago, bahubali said:

More than batsmen ship his leadership is questionable as mentioned in my previous post. How can you drop core of your batting and even VC because of they play slow or inconsistency in case of rahane when you know they are th core of batting. Don't forget the one test which you won in SA rahaney played crucial role and again historic series win in AUs was on back pujara and rahaney batting where kohli was completely MIA. For wc SF loss he was sole responsible first of all choking in all importan matches 2 back to back WC SF and CT final whom you worship as goat and secondly selecting a mediocre fast bowler ahead of highest wkt taker , sending dhoni at 7 th position and playing 2 spinners in ultra swinging condition. I blame kohli the batsmmen only coz he choke when we really need him whether it's test or important world event. Have you seen Smith or AUs complaining and crying about their one batsmen team, a good leader knows how to utilize resout what he have rather than winning and crying and abusing using youngsters for their failure when you yourself suppot a perennial failure like dhoni(after15), Karthik and rayadu( for giving chance for 2 years and than eventually dropout just before WC).

There are no core players in Indian team except Kohli and Bumrah.Rest of them can and should be rotated based on their form and conditions. Your logic of Rahane doing well in one test which they won is ridiculous, what was he doing in England where he played all tests if he had done well India would have won the series there.As a senior player his avg was under 40 till recent WI series. When you play with just five batsmen of which two are openers who stink you need you senior players to produce.Same with Pujara he stunk from 2013 till Southampton test.

 

Stop mixing arguments, I have given the reason for world cup loss, Kohli the captain was not wrong there, Kohli the batsmen has come short in big spots I will never excuse Kohli for flopping in world cup semifinal 2019.He had to deliver there but he flopped.

 

Why do you invlove Smith in every argument, Kohli is not Smith in test cricket.It does not mean Kohli becomes a bad test batsman.Go and look what Australians did after SA beat them in Australia in 2018 and look how many changes they made.Where is Renshaw now? Every team has issues stop looking for faults because you can,has this TM done few things wrong yes, which TM is perfect. 

 

Kohli transformed a no7 test team to no1 team under his captaincy  and is no1  for last three years in row and led to semis and finals of two ICC tournaments you are having problem with his captaincy .

 

You are sounding like that moron Gambhir who was taking a dig at Kohli forgetting Dhoni has stopped playing tests since 2014 and India is still doing just fine in test cricket.

 

Steve Waugh said it best about captaincy listen to everybody and do what you feel is right.It is mark of a great captain that he is allowing input of other players, it does not make Kohli a bad captain if listens to his other players in fact it make him better captain.

 

Regarding Dhoni still playing, Sachin was done after 2011 but he kept on picking and choosing matches what was Dhoni doing, did he drop Sachin.Kapil Dev was done long before he quit but he kept on playing at the expense of Srinath.It is bane of Indian cricket that some star players have the power to override selectors and captain.Have you seen one media member say Dhoni should be dropped even now?

Edited September 20, 2019 by putrevus

[putrevus]

On 9/19/2019 at 1:46 AM, Gollum said:

Ashwin was injured before Southampton test, TM knew it and still played him. Kohli admitted the same post match. 

Ashwin did give us a winning position in the 1st test (Edgbaston) but we failed to close it out. In Centurion test again he bowled well but had 5-6 dropped catches in one innings otherwise that would have been a 10fer, he outbowled Maharaj that series. He did his job in Adelaide test which we won. 

Ali has a special love affair with India, we donate him wickets instead of him earning them. Same Indian team makes Herath look like a mediocre bowler but against Ali, Chase, Lyon we offer little resistance. Watch how other teams treat him. Ashwin hardly played in 2014 tour, bowled very little, Moeen's 6fer came in a match where Jadeja was our lone spinner.... 

Except Southampton test last year Ashwin did well in this cycle. Not his fault if others couldn't step up. Apart from Chandra our spinners have never been matchwinners overseas, only support cast. Ashwin did provide plenty of support this time, once each in RSA/Eng/Aus. You also need some luck to get the wins, had we taken the 9 chances in Centurion or had Kohli-Pandya finished the job in Eng 1st test, we would look at it differently. 

Kumble and Bhajji often sucked in SENA, check how Kumble fared overseas in 90s. There would be series where he would pick 1 wicket per match those days. Mediocrities like Paul Harris have been the reason of our downfall in SENA, opponent spinners didn't do that well because our team was the GOAT against spin bowling unlike these days when we can hardly play off spin. That's why instead of comparing we should see what our guys did...you do agree that bowling to batsmen like Viru, Gambo, RD, VVS, SRT, Dada offers more challenges for SENA spinners as opposed to against Kohli, Che and 5 other random mediocre batsmen.   

Lyon and Ashwin went head to head in 3 tests (not Adelaide where we played Karn) in Australia in 2014-15, identical numbers. In Adelaide last December Ash went 6/149 @1.7 while Lyon went 8/205 @2.9. How exactly did one outbowl the other? 

Maharaj is the greatest RSA test spinner who outbowled Lyon in both series they went against each other. Ashwin comprehensively outbowled him in his own turf. 

Catching in both countries, especially RSA where we dropped 12 in the 2 tests we lost. Parthiv Patel special credit. Dhawan, Kohli too dropped many crucial catches. We have many threads keeping count of all that. 

 

Poor team selection, eg 2 spinners on Lord's greentop under overcast conditions.

 

Main quicks getting injured before Eng test series.

 

Bad luck with tosses. Lost 7 out of 8....we aren't that good a team to overcome toss disadvantage, not yet.

 

Poor 4th innings team. Need massive luck or some ATG knocks to chase 300+ totals but we failed in chasing a few 190-245 range totals. We are the worst 4th innings team since 2014 including in Asia, batting average 17-18... dedicated thread for that as well. 

 

Poor pre-tour prep. Arrived 5 days before Cape Town test (courtesy longish SL home series and Kohli's wedding) and didn't even have a single outdoor net session because of inclement weather...spent the time sightseeing and shopping. ODIs/T20s can never be warm ups for red ball cricket as happened in England. Even a team like Pakistan prepares better before these overseas tests. Next time BCCI should delink white ball and red ball cricket, schedule a test against Ireland and then couple of 4 day matches (FC status) against good county sides (we can offer to pay for them to field their best players)...then see how we play. None of that optional practice that current TM lived by in last cycle. 

 

More reasons but you listed a couple, here are 6. 

Ashwin has stunk in SENA countries and if he was good he would be still playing as lone spinner.He has been outbowled by Ali and Lyon.Ashwin is far superior bowler to both of them .

 

There are numerous posts detailing chapter and verse of Ashwin's short comings in many matches.I cannot accept anyone who says Ashwin was even okay.

 

Lords test was the only test where Kuldeep's selection was wrong .Which team is perfect in team selection.Aussies selected Siddle in place of Starc in last Oval test .

 

People are taking about Rahane's and Pujara's dropping and how it effected their morale and all that nonsense.Rahul being sidelined for first test in SA was such a discussion point because Kohli is jealous of his talent.Aussies dropped Starc who is their one of the biggest match winners and we don't see Starc moaning and whining about it.

 

Rahane was whining about his droping in first two test in SA after England series where he did nothing, this i*diot has nerve to complain about his drop.He was one failure away from being axed from the team itself.

 

The reasons you mentioned are part of cricket catches get dropped , India does not have good slip fielders and it is still work in progress.You cannot blame the captin for it.

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Ashwin has stunk in SENA countries and if he was good he would be still playing as lone spinner.He has been outbowled by Ali and Lyon.Ashwin is far superior bowler to both of them .

Apart from Southampton test (carrying injury) not really. Talking about the 2017-18 away cycle. His hernia and hip injuries are problems that will probably end his career. Once hip goes, pivot goes and you can't recover from that, like Andy Murray's present situation. Anyway he did his job more than well once each in the 3 countries this cycle. Lyon didn't outbowl him in Adelaide and in 2014-15 the 3 tests both played together their stats were identical...Adelaide 2014 was a rank turner after 2.5 days and we played Karn. As I said one can blame him for Southampton, other than that not much. 

I don't think he is superior to Lyon, he was better till circa 2016 but then Lyon took a giant leap...still no great but good everywhere except perhaps some Asian conditions.   

Quote

Lords test was the only test where Kuldeep's selection was wrong .

Rahane was whining about his droping in first two test in SA after England series where he did nothing, this i*diot has nerve to complain about his drop.He was one failure away from being axed from the team itself.

Pujara didn't play Edgbaston test after his gritty 50 in Jo'berg earlier that year. Rohit should never have played a single SENA test. Mistakes were made before the Eng tests, why did we play Bhuvi and Bumrah in those useless Ireland/England T20s? 

Path away from Rahane can't lead to Rohit Sharma. And what was DK doing in the England tests or PP in RSA? Rather have some rookie over these TTFs. 

Quote

The reasons you mentioned are part of cricket catches get dropped , India does not have good slip fielders and it is still work in progress.You cannot blame the captin for it.

You don't blame captain for having wrong catchers in slips? What business do Kohli and Dhawan have there, they have never been fit for slip cordon duties. We missed hella lot of catches, 12 in just 2 tests in RSA, nothing normal about it. Scheduling no proper warmups and arriving less than a week before an important series in alien conditions is 'part of cricket'? Not a whimper from Kohli or Shastri about that. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Gollum

[putrevus]

55 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Apart from Southampton test (carrying injury) not really. Talking about the 2017-18 away cycle. His hernia and hip injuries are problems that will probably end his career. Once hip goes, pivot goes and you can't recover from that, like Andy Murray's present situation. Anyway he did his job more than well once each in the 3 countries this cycle. Lyon didn't outbowl him in Adelaide and in 2014-15 the 3 tests both played together their stats were identical...Adelaide 2014 was a rank turner after 2.5 days and we played Karn. As I said one can blame him for Southampton, other than that not much. 

I don't think he is superior to Lyon, he was better till circa 2016 but then Lyon took a giant leap...still no great but good everywhere except perhaps some Asian conditions.   

Pujara didn't play Edgbaston test after his gritty 50 in Jo'berg earlier that year. Rohit should never have played a single SENA test. Mistakes were made before the Eng tests, why did we play Bhuvi and Bumrah in those useless Ireland/England T20s? 

Path away from Rahane can't lead to Rohit Sharma. And what was DK doing in the England tests or PP in RSA. Rather have some rookie over these TTFs. 

You don't blame captain for having wrong catchers in slips? What business do Kohli and Dhawan have there, they have never been fit for slip cordon duties. We missed hella lot of catches, 12 in just 2 tests in RSA, nothing normal about it. Scheduling no proper warmups and arriving less than a week before an important series in alien conditions is 'part of cricket'? Not a whimper from Kohli or Shastri about that. 

I disagree ,he didn't do well at all.He is supposed to win matches from 2013 he has never won any match , 2013 Joburg test was another classic example.

 

He is by far the best legit offspinner in the history of the game, During Chennai test against England in 2016 he lost his loop and he has not been the same bowler ever since, in last 21 tests he has taken two 5fers and zero 10fers.He has ability to do well but he has overcomplicated himself in eagerness to prove everyone wrong.Nobody takes 250 plus wickets in 42 tests by not being good.

 

Pujara did not play because he was not even lasting few deliveries for whole summer in county cricket.Pujara did nothing noteworth away from home since 2013 before that test in England.Nothing wrong in dropping him.You don't anticipate inuries, what happens if they get injured during test nobody can plan it.Stop blaming TM for it.

 

Who are supposed to stand in slips then?

Edited September 20, 2019 by putrevus

[Ankit_sharma03]

18 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

He is by far the best legit offspinner in the history of the game, During Chennai test against England in 2016 he lost his loop and he has not been the same bowler ever since, in last 21 tests he has taken two 5fers and zero 10fers.

No he didnt loose his loop, it was due to sports hernia a injury that has kept him in problem for last 2 years, It has kept coming back. Injuries for bowlers are more of a problem as it hampers them to use their bodies.....lyon has been struggling with finger injury, kumble in phase was struggling post shoulder surgery 

As u said he had 250 wkts in 42 test , why isnt he allowed to have a bit lean phase , everyone has it and injury had a huge role to play 

 

https://sports.ndtv.com/india-vs-england-2016-17/ravichandran-ashwin-reveals-how-he-played-through-injury-against-england-1660823

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

On 9/19/2019 at 6:20 PM, putrevus said:

 

Pujara and Rahane's non selections for some tests was right one.Look Pujara was not even a factor in WI.Before Soutampton Pujara was non factor in overseas tours since 2013.

If pujara was a non Factor in WI 

Then Dhawan n Rohit have been a non factor overseas entirly

Their playing ahead of pujara or rahane even in their bad form is a foolish justification coz those 2 will still manage 2 innings in b bad form while these 2 cant even perform in 2 when in good form .

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

On 9/19/2019 at 2:57 AM, putrevus said:

If you list the reasons for losses in SA and England. My first reason  would  be openers and second would be Ashwin.Let me know yours.

Its easy to blame openers

but lets look at behind the scene as well - Were they given practice games - No

Shastri n kohli biggest foolishness was not playing practice games before SA n ENG  .......the toughest thing in overseas is opening specially against SA n ENG attacks on their pitches those guys didnt even get practice......blame entirely if they had practice games but blame alone isnt on them. 

 

Ashwin- spinners arent suppose to win u overseas.....lyon didnt help Aus either. Seamers win u games overseas.....Even when kumble was beats overseas batsman use to give 500-600 runs and thats when spinners come in play overseas. Ashwin 4 catches were dropped in SA in 2nd test ....had it not been the case he wud have taken a 8 wkt haul. His perfomance on all tours were hampered by injury. Even kumble became a beast in overseas post 2003 tour down under which was his 13 yr in international cricket. Overseas has never been easy for indian spinner specially due to kookabura 

 

Reasons were simple

• overconfidence to not play practice games. Look at current SA-A tour more then half their main side is playing.....they win or loose is separate but atleast prepation is well done. And we reward our coach with incrementation . 
• Selection- dhawan n rohit playing overseas even ahead of out of form rahane, pujara is damn foolish
• If openers was an issue why didnt play prithvi shaw who was selected for last 2 test in england , 
• lack of balls that kohli n shastri has to play a youngsters like pant n persisting with DK n patel which costed them SA n half england tour . FFs parthiv dropped 12 catches in last 2 test .....12 catches that where u loose the game. 

[putrevus]

40 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

No he didnt loose his loop, it was due to sports hernia a injury that has kept him in problem for last 2 years, It has kept coming back. Injuries for bowlers are more of a problem as it hampers them to use their bodies.....lyon has been struggling with finger injury, kumble in phase was struggling post shoulder surgery 

As u said he had 250 wkts in 42 test , why isnt he allowed to have a bit lean phase , everyone has it and injury had a huge role to play 

 

https://sports.ndtv.com/india-vs-england-2016-17/ravichandran-ashwin-reveals-how-he-played-through-injury-against-england-1660823

 

 

 

I know he had that injury thats why I said he lost his loop during that test becuase he was over compensating.Bad habbits are formed when player is injured and try to be careful.It took Ashwin years to get that loop.Loop and dip is everything for a spinner.

It was 2016 and today is 2019, you don't need three years to get better from injury.If you are injured go rest and get better, leave the team alone.He is just playing one format and there is no excuse for him being injured still,he is just lazy and unfit.

[putrevus]

32 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Its easy to blame openers

but lets look at behind the scene as well - Were they given practice games - No

Shastri n kohli biggest foolishness was not playing practice games before SA n ENG  .......the toughest thing in overseas is opening specially against SA n ENG attacks on their pitches those guys didnt even get practice......blame entirely if they had practice games but blame alone isnt on them. 

 

Ashwin- spinners arent suppose to win u overseas.....lyon didnt help Aus either. Seamers win u games overseas.....Even when kumble was beats overseas batsman use to give 500-600 runs and thats when spinners come in play overseas. Ashwin 4 catches were dropped in SA in 2nd test ....had it not been the case he wud have taken a 8 wkt haul. His perfomance on all tours were hampered by injury. Even kumble became a beast in overseas post 2003 tour down under which was his 13 yr in international cricket. Overseas has never been easy for indian spinner specially due to kookabura 

 

Reasons were simple

• overconfidence to not play practice games. Look at current SA-A tour more then half their main side is playing.....they win or loose is separate but atleast prepation is well done. And we reward our coach with incrementation . 
• Selection- dhawan n rohit playing overseas even ahead of out of form rahane, pujara is damn foolish
• If openers was an issue why didnt play prithvi shaw who was selected for last 2 test in england , 
• lack of balls that kohli n shastri has to play a youngsters like pant n persisting with DK n patel which costed them SA n half england tour . FFs parthiv dropped 12 catches in last 2 test .....12 catches that where u loose the game. 

I don't agree with any of your reasoning, I have told you many times and telling you again stop blaming TM for everything.TM is fine they have done nothing wrong,Ashwin has stunk and he was rightfully kicked out.Spinner like Ashwin has to win you matches otherwise he is of no use.

Edited September 20, 2019 by putrevus

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

I know he had that injury thats why I said he lost his loop during that test becuase he was over compensating.Bad habbits are formed when player is injured and try to be careful.It took Ashwin years to get that loop.Loop and dip is everything for a spinner.

It was 2016 and today is 2019, you don't need three years to get better from injury.If you are injured go rest and get better, leave the team alone.He is just playing one format and there is no excuse for him being injured still,he is just lazy and unfit.

TM didnt rest him from any series ....they n everyone knew about his injury . On his part he choose to skip IPL that year

How can an injury heal when a player keeps playing, TM has been casual with even bhuvi injury 

 

Do u see him wasting time in off season...he is going n playing county . How is he lazy ?

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

I don't agree with any of your reasoning, I have told you many times and telling you again stop blaming TM for everything.TM is fine they have done nothing wrong,Ashwin has stunk and he was rightfully kicked out.Spinner like Ashwin has to win you matches otherwise he is of no use.

U can defend any of the point.....u have no answer 

UR like a broken record.....TM is fine . Yea right they are fine yet we are not winning tournaments ....we have only won 1 series in SENA which we even won under dhoni n dravid

Spinners hardly win u in SA n ENG......its pacers who do unless name is warne or murali which ashwin or any spinner isnt. BTW for that players like parthiv shudnt drop catches.....which also comes on TM for persisting with failure like him. 

 

Matalb 

Selections can go wrong

Batsman are inconsistent

TM dont play practice games

One on tour a TTF keeper drops 1 dozen catches 

 

But ashwin has to win.....wah re 

[bahubali]

14 hours ago, putrevus said:

There are no core players in Indian team except Kohli and Bumrah.Rest of them can and should be rotated based on their form and conditions. Your logic of Rahane doing well in one test which they won is ridiculous, what was he doing in England where he played all tests if he had done well India would have won the series there.As a senior player his avg was under 40 till recent WI series. When you play with just five batsmen of which two are openers who stink you need you senior players to produce.Same with Pujara he stunk from 2013 till Southampton test.

 

Stop mixing arguments, I have given the reason for world cup loss, Kohli the captain was not wrong there, Kohli the batsmen has come short in big spots I will never excuse Kohli for flopping in world cup semifinal 2019.He had to deliver there but he flopped.

 

Why do you invlove Smith in every argument, Kohli is not Smith in test cricket.It does not mean Kohli becomes a bad test batsman.Go and look what Australians did after SA beat them in Australia in 2018 and look how many changes they made.Where is Renshaw now? Every team has issues stop looking for faults because you can,has this TM done few things wrong yes, which TM is perfect. 

 

Kohli transformed a no7 test team to no1 team under his captaincy  and is no1  for last three years in row and led to semis and finals of two ICC tournaments you are having problem with his captaincy .

 

You are sounding like that moron Gambhir who was taking a dig at Kohli forgetting Dhoni has stopped playing tests since 2014 and India is still doing just fine in test cricket.

 

Steve Waugh said it best about captaincy listen to everybody and do what you feel is right.It is mark of a great captain that he is allowing input of other players, it does not make Kohli a bad captain if listens to his other players in fact it make him better captain.

 

Regarding Dhoni still playing, Sachin was done after 2011 but he kept on picking and choosing matches what was Dhoni doing, did he drop Sachin.Kapil Dev was done long before he quit but he kept on playing at the expense of Srinath.It is bane of Indian cricket that some star players have the power to override selectors and captain.Have you seen one media member say Dhoni should be dropped even now?

Kohli this kohli that, transformed team blah blah...reality is most of the team are mediocre gng around and many of them have just one or Two batsmen. However  when team went from number 7 to 1 all credit goes to him but when team lost 2 of the main overseas series the responsibility goes to players and not to kohli. You keep talking about kohli the batsmen is this and that but yet whatever victory India had in past couple of years during overseas test tour are those matches where rahane, pujara were motm heck even pandya. Kohli is a dumb leader most brainless captain India ever had his legacy would be remembered as loosing all important ICC final and SF. Not only loosing them but flopping in them as well. Last but not the least you were the one who start jumping up and down everytime he made a century in useless biletral where other team inspite of being mediocre still rests their main players. He is so dumb that he rins and repeat same mistake after every major tournament debacle and expect diff results and than sought on younger players to vent out his frustration.he dint groom a single player in his tenure.

[putrevus]

On 9/20/2019 at 4:35 PM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

U can defend any of the point.....u have no answer 

UR like a broken record.....TM is fine . Yea right they are fine yet we are not winning tournaments ....we have only won 1 series in SENA which we even won under dhoni n dravid

Spinners hardly win u in SA n ENG......its pacers who do unless name is warne or murali which ashwin or any spinner isnt. BTW for that players like parthiv shudnt drop catches.....which also comes on TM for persisting with failure like him. 

 

Matalb 

Selections can go wrong

Batsman are inconsistent

TM dont play practice games

One on tour a TTF keeper drops 1 dozen catches 

 

But ashwin has to win.....wah re 

I am not a broken record, you are , only point you keep posting is TM didn't do  this and they didn't do that. That is utter nonsense in my book, players like Rahul have to be held reponsible for their actions , same thing goes for Ashwin.

 

If you think Ashwin is fine we have nothing else to discuss. There is a reason why both of them are not in Indian team.Don't want to talk to you about this with you anymore, as you don't have anything new to add.