SachDan Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Sure. You seem to suggest as if I ever complained about them. :haha: But please whatever you do, dont go the honesty path :giggle: I've the same advise for you lurker mian after going through your millions of posts on SRT bashing and defending "the land of the pure" :winky:
ganeshran Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Very good at his best though he could not sustain it - pretty hard to mind you given his first few years. His ability to take wickets AND score runs at the same time was second to none. I think he took 5 wickets and scored a hundred in the same game 4-5 times, including the Mumbai test in 1980 which is something Indian fans would remember. He was a good swing bowler. Though I don't think he was an ATG bowler, he had what you'd call a 'golden arm'. He'd bowl a wide swinging half volley that the batsman could barely reach and they'd edge it behind. As a batsman, he was the best out of the lot imo. Great. Thanks :two_thumbs_up:
MCcricket Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 If you look at numbers no one can argue about Kallis being the best,at his best he was good enough to be selected as a batsmen or a bowler to me,Kapil then Botham for me,I did not consider Imran and Hadlee as batsmen or players who could be in the side as batsmen,although both were the best bowlers in their era.
Lurker Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 If you look at numbers no one can argue about Kallis being the best' date='at his best he was good enough to be selected as a batsmen or a bowler to me,Kapil then Botham for me,I did not consider Imran and Hadlee as batsmen or players who could be in the side as batsmen,although both were the best bowlers in their era.[/quote'] Personally I think Kallis is a great batsman with bowling skills. Does that quantify him to be considered as an all time great all-rounder? I dont quite think so. Is it enough to be qualified to be picked as batsman or bowler to be qualified as an all-rounder? If that was the case Ravi Shastri or Tony Greig would be world beater too. To me an all-rounder is one who can do both the skills but is darn good at it too. As the opposing team you should be apprehensive enough of a player to be considered all time great all-rounder. If India were playing South Africa tomorrow and Kallis was the lone pacer, would Indians be really worried about him as a bowler? As a batsman of course there is no debate. To me Kallis has always been a good 1st or 2nd change bowler. Not quite a strike bowler. On the other hand if a team was playing against Pakistan, India, England or NZ in 80s you can be assured they were apprehensive of the Kapil, Imran, Botham, Hadlee. Not only were these gents leading bowling attack pretty much but were also very capable batsmen who would change the course of the game, specially the first three. xx
pensionplan Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 Kapil for me though Botham in the early 80's for a couple of years was brilliant. The true sense of a great all-rounder to me is also being an excellent fielder apart from being a good batsman and a bowler which is often overlooked. Imran was a s*** fielder hanging around. Kapil was such a natural with the bat and in the field on top of being an excellent bowler. Kapil over the other three for me.
pensionplan Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 tbh it's not even a contest..Imran Khan is the second best all-rounder after SGF.Say's who?
zen Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 It is difficult to pick one great all-rounder out of the fab 4 because it is hard to find a clear winner with each one having his strengths. In such a scenario, I would try to base my opinion on the following: 1. Being a true all-rounder with performing at the same time with the bat and the ball. We have seen that the likes of Imran have had career in two parts where he has been exceptional with the ball and then with the bat. There has only been a brief overlap where he has done well with both. Hadlee has mostly been a bowler who could bat a bit. Only Botham and Kapil have had major parts of their career where they have been playing as true all-rounders. Botham had been a regular #6 for Eng. Imran till 1986 1987-92 2. Since we are comparing peers: Performance against the strongest team of their time - West Indies. Guys like Botham and Imran didn't have a great all-round record against the strongest team of their time WI esp. when it was at his peak b/w late 70s and early 80s. Botham's career seems to have picked up when some of the squads were depleted because of Packer and World Series. And when the Packer series ended with the top teams getting their squads back, surprisingly his decline began. Kapil had a great record against WI with both the bat and the ball. He seemed to pick his game up vs WI, coming up with some legendary performances with both the bat and the ball. 3. Raw Potential. Kapil was a natural. Whether with the bat or fielding. He was filled with so much talent. * To me he was one of the best batsman to watch and looked at ease against both pace and spin. Like with Sehwag, we can always feel that Kapil could have achieved a lot more with the bat. * He was a brilliant out-fielder too. * From what I remember reading, Kapil had a knee surgery in 1984 and lost a bit of pace and late swing. He had to develop an off-cutter to remain effective. Before the surgery, he had taken 250 test wickets in just 60 test matches with 18 5 wicket hauls and a strike rate of less than 55. Kapil 1978-1983 Also Kapil's bowling record in Australia is brilliant. If he had played more tests in such places he would have had a much better bowling record Based on the above, I would say Kapil is the best all-rounder of the fab 4 .... But if I had to pick one for my team, it would be Hadlee as he was a brilliant bowler who could win you a game on his own and his batting was a bonus
Pak_Fan_4_Eva Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 ^There is so much wrong with this post, I'll reply once I have the time.
zen Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 1971-1985 vs WI M R Avg 100s Wts Avg 5-er Kapil 17 767 35 2 63 24 2 Botha 14 589 23 0 47 33 2 Imran 9 419 25 1 35 29 2 Hadle 7 315 32 1 34 23 2 Link Note: * Imran and Botham's bowling avg > batting avg * Kapil has better numbers despite playing almost twice as much as some of the others PS Gavaskar's avg!
Lurker Posted January 1, 2012 Posted January 1, 2012 A lot of Imran's aura is down to his performance against Australia and England where he did phenomenally well. This includes his performance in County Cricket and Australia first class games. Kapil on the other hand completely sucked as did Sunny and many other Indian greats. In 70s/80s the only Indians who did well in County were Engineer, Bedi and Doshi. Everybody else sucked till Dravid came along and Srinath. Even SRT performed below expectations. But by the same token his performance against India makes folks like me question him. He had one phenomenal Test seris where he knocked out India on his own and took 40 wickets but every series before and after he frankly sucked. Since I started following cricket a bit I have seen him come second best to Kapil in 1985 Benson Hedges Series, Rothmans cup, 1992 World Cup etc. In the late 80s series that Pakistan won he was leading as a skipper but as a player his performance was again routine. Now this is at a time when India Pakistan relationship was not bad at all. Imran was a big hit in India, possibly bigger than any Pakistani cricketer ever. So his criticism from Indian fans of the era is not really based on dislike. In fact many Indian fans were supporting Pakistan in 87 and 92 after India was knocked out. xxx
The Outsider Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 ^ Despite his supposed "choke" your itihaas says that Kapil scored more runs in that match than Bhagwaan managed in 2 finals put together, not to mention the 2/38 he took at Bombay and the 1/21 in 11 overs along with the catch of the 20th century. If Kapil had not even picked up the ball in the match you are referring to he would have contributed more than Bhagwaan did in 2 World Cup finals put together.
Lurker Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 ^ Despite his supposed "choke" your itihaas says that Kapil scored more runs in that match than Bhagwaan managed in 2 finals put together' date= not to mention the 2/38 he took at Bombay and the 1/21 in 11 overs along with the catch of the 20th century. If Kapil had not even picked up the ball in the match you are referring to he would have contributed more than Bhagwaan did in 2 World Cup finals put together. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: Oh snap!! 2012 didnt start the same way as 2011...BB thinking of himself as stupid with his bhagwaan getting a bloodied nose. lol bring in ODI's as and when it suits Dude, I mentioned the series in which Imran took 40 wickets and Pakistan won in India in late 80s. What were those? LOIs?? except that Pakis had been knocked out a day before your hero choked at wankhede in 87. And the only Indian supporting pakis in 92 was Sunny. You arent being counted as one of those Indians who were supporting Pakistan in 87/92, dont worry. :haha::haha: As for Kapil choking thats first time anyone has ever thought about that..so congratulations on your ever growing retardedness.
BestVRest Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I would rate Ian Botham up there as a great all rounder.
ganeshran Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 ^ Despite his supposed "choke" your itihaas says that Kapil scored more runs in that match than Bhagwaan managed in 2 finals put together, not to mention the 2/38 he took at Bombay and the 1/21 in 11 overs along with the catch of the 20th century. If Kapil had not even picked up the ball in the match you are referring to he would have contributed more than Bhagwaan did in 2 World Cup finals put together. Dont know how SRT came in this thread, but Sachin has 233 runs in WC semi finals with 34 for 2 in 1996 and 28 for 2 in 2003.
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I think as an All Rounder considering the entirety of their careers, Imran Khan is the greatest ever....in fact I believe he is the greatest Test cricketer of dem all just slightly ahead of Gary Sobers...183 days of the year I'll vote for Imran as number 1 and on the other 182 I'll vote for Gary Sobers. Again comparing only the 4 greats of the 80s over the entirety of their careers Imran is obviously the best. But, if you were to compare them as ARs doing AR-giri simultaneously i.e. impacting a game with both bat and ball during a Test, a series or a couple of seasons consistently then Kapil Dev and Ian Botham are in a different league to Imran and Hadlee. I'd say Kapil is slightly ahead of Ian Botham but I admit that is because of my bias Hadlee was definitely the best bowler among the four followed by Imran. Kapil was the best batsmen among the four followed by Botham. The reason I go with Imran ahead of even Sobers is because he was just awesome in that one thing that no other team sport has such unique dependency upon - captaincy
Lurker Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I would rate Ian Botham up there as a great all rounder. Yep. At his peak he was perhaps the best of the 4. However his peak was for a short duration and his performance, or lack thereof, against West Indies go against him. But what a terrfic cricketer! He and Kapil were quite similar in their game.
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Dude' date=' I mentioned the series in which Imran took 40 wickets and Pakistan won in India in late 80s. What were those? LOIs??[/quote']I think the series you are referring to is the one in Pakistan in the early 80s. In that series the Niazi was unplayable.
ganeshran Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 IIRC Imran picked up 40 wickets in a series in India too... CT might know exact one
Vijay.Sharma Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 He had two very good series against India in the early 80s (before the 87 series which was Wasim's series as a bowler more than Imran's although Wasim didnt pick too many wickets but he established himself as a bloody fast bowler)...one of them was in Pakistan and one in India. And in both of them he was unplayable.
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