Tendulkar's batting exploits while chasing a big total in 2nd Inn

[Keep-It-Cool]

Just like the time when it was him and not the bowlers who were responsible for the WC final?

or when he "failed" to win us the Chennai test match against pakistan

[Gambit]

Of course he did. That along with the fact that we do not seem to have any viable replacement at the top of the order is the reason why I am not calling for him to be necessarily shifted down the order. However, it is not as far fetched a thought or approach as several people make it seem either. Nor do I understand why most people even refuse to acknowledge that chasing a score may be a weakness in his game.

As I said before, I acknowledge that his performance while chasing has been on the wane but he still has delivered while chasing in critical games in the past year. Funny that for most other bats when their shortcomings are pointed out, people latch on to their great knocks that defy the shortcomings. For Tendullkar, it's the opposite. People latch on to the failures without acknowledging the successes.

Well, as per your stats, he is the best in 300+ chases. But Kirsten, Salman Butt and Gayle are better in 275+ chases and a whole host of openers are better in 250+ chases (Knight, Greatbatch, Butt, Smith, Hayden, Mark Waugh, Rameez Raja). But, that is just me nitpicking ;) As I said, I am not in favour of looking at any cut offs nor am I saying he has been poor through his career. My submission is that he does appear to have developed a weakness (or you may want to call it inconsistency) while chasing over the last few years.

But doesn't him featuring in the top 7 and being #1 in 275+ and 300+ chases respectively dispel that myth I've been talking about? I mean, people who criticise him for being a non starter in the 2nd innings should atleast acknowledge this FACT. But people latch on to his recent failures forgetting to look at the overall picture which is quite different from what is believed.

[Gambit]

or when he "failed" to win us the Chennai test match against pakistan

Are you being sarcastic or do you think he failed to win that game for us?

[Keep-It-Cool]

Are you being sarcastic or do you think he failed to win that game for us?

what do you think?? :haha:

[Keep-It-Cool]

As I said before, I acknowledge that his performance while chasing has been on the wane but he still has delivered while chasing in critical games in the past year. Funny that for most other bats when their shortcomings are pointed out, people latch on to their great knocks that defy the shortcomings. For Tendullkar, it's the opposite. People latch on to the failures without acknowledging the successes.

But doesn't him featuring in the top 7 and being #1 in 275+ and 300+ chases respectively dispel that myth I've been talking about? I mean, people who criticise him for being a non starter in the 2nd innings should atleast acknowledge this FACT. But people latch on to his recent failures forgetting to look at the overall picture which is quite different from what is believed.

Well, that is the price of greatness and I am sure it does not bother him. Just as I am sure that he is bothered by the fact that he has been unable to do more in recent times while chasing.

[Gambit]

what do you think?? :haha:

No idea. Hence the question.

[Keep-It-Cool]

No idea. Hence the question.

Ok. I dont blame him.

[Ram]

What mind boggling demand are you talking about? I just posted some stats. They are for all run chases against non minnows - not restricted to 270+ or 250+ scores or to finals or the so called "crunch" matches. Is expecting a player to score somewhere close to his overall average in the second innings a mind boggling expectation? At least my mind does not boggle so quickly.

Stats only tell half the story. For us to have a complete picture, we must also take into account the circumstances of the match, who were the opposition bowlers etc. As it has been shown before, Sachin is the only batsman, to have 15+ scores of 50+, while chasing a target of 270+. That does show that he IS capable of performing while chasing.

Unfortunately, he has had some high-profile failures, in some top-of-the-bill matches, like the finals of WC 03, while chasing. This has somehow created an impression that he is a bad batsman, while chasing. If the large number of matches that he has played were to be an issue, it would have affected his performance / average irrespective of whether he bats first or second. The large number of matches also helps smooth over the ocassional poor patch that may explain a skew in numbers to one side. I dont understand how a large number of matches can lead to such a big difference in averages between batting first and batting second.

No, the reference to the large number of matches is more a pointer to the fact that the search space for criticism, as far as Sachin is concerned, is always getting larger. You can say that is the case for all batsman, but its more so for Sachin because of the nanoscopic investigation critics and fans alike, indulge in.

How is "performance while batting second" an "unfair performance parameter"? Again' date=' I have not created multple criteria - i.e. something on the lines of "performance in a victorious chase of over 270 runs in a cruch match" - which, I agree, is an unfair demand because then he would be paying for the follies of the bowlers. I am just looking at the simple criterion - batting second - and that does provide a large enough number of matches to make out whether there is a meaningful trend.[/quote'] I am not living in denial, proclaiming " All this talk of Sachin in second innings is all crap. He is fine". I do understand and recognize the fact that his performance, in the last few years, chasing hasnt been as good as it *could* be. But we must also remember, its rare to see batsman who perform better while chasing than batting first. We have been spoiled for riches in the Indian team, because of the presence of Yuvraj and Dhoni, both of whom are excellent chasers. Sachin's record seems deficient, but I am sure and confident that he will fix this too.

Isn't the decision to bat first or second one of the most hotly debated ones in cricket. Dont the captains toss for the right to decide what they want to do? Dont most teams prefer batting first? The fact that there is a preference implies that it is a key parameter - and batsmen are bound to be evaluated based on this parameter as well.

No, only that such visceral scrutiny of his record tends to take away the sheen off what is otherwise a truly breathtaking career. We get so obsessed with what Sachin *hasnt* done for us that, we almost tend to forget what he *has* done for us, which is to win more ODI matches than any batsman in the history of Indian cricket.

I agree with you on all of the above - with a slight modification. Over the last few years, he has been genius personified in the first innings of ODIs. In the second innings, he has joined the ranks of mere mortals. Sad, but true. I wouldnt call for dropping him from the side because we do not have a good enough replacement available. However, I wouldnt ignore his demonstrated weakness while drawing up team strategy either.

I am glad, almost relieved. Coz, everytime someone has come up and raised reservations about Sachin, The Master has given a such a forceful reply, that the doubters have spent the next few months, walking around with their faces covered. I am SURE, its gonna happen this time too.

Who denies that he has achieved great things' date=' is the crown jewel of Indian cricket, has done a lot for the team and us etc etc etc? However, I still do not understand what is wrong in pointing out a genuine problem in his game in recent years.[/quote'] There is nothing *WRONG* in pointing out perceived *deficiencies* of his record. Only, they tend to deflect the attention away from some of the more worthwhile things Sachin has done for us.

[beetle]

how can GOD do any wrong be it in the first or the second innings, in australia or out of australia, before 2003 or after 2003? as far GOD goes, stats are meaningless, unless of course they are used to debunk the myth that he is not GOD.

Ouch!Ouch!Ouch! That deserves a Fatwa!:D

[Chandan]

And one more point Chandan: Regarding you saying I'm not a SRT fan...thats wrong. Well, I dont know what ur definition of fan is, so I will leave that aside. I do like SRT. Many here think I will be "happy" if India get to chase and SRT fails. Far from true. If India gets to bat 1st or 2nd in the Finals, its SRT who can really take us to victory to thrash Aus in C&B. And I hope he scores a century be it batting 1st or 2nd. Its our only chance with a rookie batting lineup and unpredictable Yuvi's form.

A fan of a player or a team is one who supports the respective player or the team, keeps faith in his/its ability and is always there to support him or it in the thick and thin of the performance. This is my definition of a fan. Wonder what is yours? And as a fan of Indian team I want it to give its all, try its best to win the match, I want Sachin to do well but not pinning my hope ONLY on him! I want the whole team to play well.

[Ram]

how can GOD do any wrong be it in the first or the second innings, in australia or out of australia, before 2003 or after 2003? as far GOD goes, stats are meaningless, unless of course they are used to debunk the myth that he is not GOD.

I can imagine Yoda, sitting all cozy and comfortable, on his expensive couch, saying that in his deep baritone of a voice, with a wonderfully cultured British accent, just like this. :D

[The Outsider]

The fundamental question when dealing with statistics is sample size compared to the number of events. And without getting too technical, I can assure you that a sample size of 20 matches out of 400 to establish a trend won't get you anywhere when you do an error analysis. So, moving on to sports here is the lowdown - all great players like Tendulkar go through periods when they do better in certain situations as opposed to others. Moving again to statistics, as you increase the number of variables in your analysis, and Tendulkar without doubt would be the batsman with most statistical variables in ODIs with respect to where he played those matches, against whom etc. etc. the more difficult it becomes to pin point something in the phase diagram. The basis of co-variate statistical analysis, no matter how complicated the term might sound, is simplicity ie. you cannot judge the influence of one variable without keeping the others constant which becomes very difficult in a sport like cricket.

[S.R.Tendulkar]

First and Second Bat ave in ODI's since JAN 2005 Blue = Player Name | Red = 1st bat ave | Green = 2nd bat ave | After ave is strike Rate Sachin Tendulkar 56.03 82.49 27.87 81.24 Mohammad Kaif 37.56 72.32 24.58 63.52 Gautam Gambhir 42.20 84.73 35.95 74.27 Rahul Dravid 43.12 79.31 37.02 73.12 Irfan Pathan 28.83 79.23 22.45 76.11 Virender Sehwag 30.41 97.11 29.09 100.31 Sourav Ganguly 34.30 67.71 36.52 70.09 Mahendra Singh Dhoni 38.94 93.77 53.06 87.04 Robin Uthappa 20.30 107.40 33.26 95.41 Yuvraj Singh 37.20 85.70 50.62 85.68 Suresh Raina 18.73 67.38 41.37 77.88 As you can see Tendulkar has done better than anyone in batting first, his batting first is higher than everyone else's batting first or batting second. Players who are really good at batting second are not as good at batting first..so there is a balance..some are good at batting others are good at batting second. Thats why its a team game bro, not a one man show!!

[udaydewan]

Tendulkar performs very well in the first innings. Dhoni and Yuvraj perform very well in the second innings. It actually works for Indian team that some of its players perform in first innings and others in the second innings. This makes sure that Indian team bats well in the first innings as well as in the second innings.

[Mr. Wicket]

Bump! :D

[Holysmoke]

Egg on face time!!! :hysterical:

[Mr. Wicket]

Enough here to make a few omelettes, right? Right holy, time for statistical info: Finals vs. Australia where Tendulkar has scored a hundred to win the game Sharjah, 98 Sydney, 08 Finals vs. Australia where Sehwag, Yuvraj, Dravid, Ganguly, Kaif, Uthappa, Dhoni and everyone else have scored matchwinning hundreds: ... hmm... :D

[Holysmoke]

Drop him :hysterical:

[Holysmoke]

when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

[Dirty_South]

:hysterical: