zen Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) One point that I have seen is that Ind's middle order is weak. However, in terms of potential, there is not a huge difference b/w those who open for us and those who play in the middle Below is Rohit as a top order batsman: Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Batting position less than or equal to 3 Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 2007-2019 201 195 31 7808 264 47.60 8840 88.32 22 39 12 681 215 Profile filtered 2008-2019 126 125 15 5961 264 54.19 6529 91.30 20 27 5 557 193 Below is Rohit as a MO batsman: Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Batting position greater than or equal to 4 Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 2007-2019 201 195 31 7808 264 47.60 8840 88.32 22 39 12 681 215 Profile filtered 2007-2012 75 70 16 1847 114 34.20 2311 79.92 2 12 7 124 22 If the current Rohit is an improved player, he should be able to do well and strengthen our middle order. And someone with equal potential (and ability to play quicky) can be moved to the top (and hopefully improve his game too) Now if an improved Rohit does not strengthen the MO, then a) he has not really improved, and b) MO is not that successful because it faces a variety of challenges including 1. having to bat early in challenging conditions when openers do not do their job well, and 2. on batting friendly conditions, the top order plays more deliveries to make it relatively harder for the MO to keep it battle ready (i.e. is how the openers are playing making the MO appear weak) Therefore, MO could be facing pressure from both sides i.e. a) not cashing in enough on batting friendly wkts (where the openers beef up their stats), and b) having to do more on bowling friendly wkts (where openers get out cheaply) .... This is something I would like to examine in details objectively Edited February 19, 2019 by zen Link to comment
mani sha Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 23 hours ago, Nikola said: You are taking as if he only struggles when ball swings. Tell anyone to open and if it swings they will struggle. Sehwag and gambhir have struggled too. Gambhir wasn't attacking he played more like rohit and dhawan plays like sehwag (big slower than sehwag) he struggles and gets out . sehwag struggled but either survived and scored hundreds or made a brisk 25 and got out - no ball wastage rohit wastes and gets out . hence tuktuk . neither here nor there . respect for a duck in 4 balls rather than a 30 ball 15 Gambhir sr and rotation of strike was excellent for that era in current era - after the first ten runs , u need to accelerate . not after your 50 . i stopped watching one dayers played by india as i dont see them winning big tournaments bcci has rectified few things bowling is v good keepers are good lower middle order of pandya pant and shankar will do well kohli is perfect dhawan is awesome in onedayers our two liabilities are dhoni ( hai hai dhoni ) and rohit ( talunted!) rohits best innings was in t20 finals 10 years ago . his strokes are excellent . however he comes from the mumbai brigade - tendulkar ,mnjrekar ,rohit - play for a 100 first .. team gayi tel lene . more respect for delhi boys - sehwag , gambhir ,dhawan , kohli - team first pant following the tradition i have played first class cricket in india . i am from bombay - know how the thinking is - khadoos is a made up adjective for selfish. philcric and zen 2 Link to comment
mani sha Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 forgot rayudu . none of the hyderabadis ever play odi ok - no powerplay . azar ,laxman and rayudu all had same issues . at least azar and laxman looked good . rayudu is ineffective and is an old dhoni with selfish attitude . even a moron could see recently how he got shankar out - Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Sehwag in odis is overrated. Just because he gives you quick start that doesn't mean work is done. How many matches he won all alone? In seaming conditions idk when he scored hundreds? tell me few pls. Link to comment
Ankit_sharma03 Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Nikola said: Sehwag in odis is overrated. Just because he gives you quick start that doesn't mean work is done. How many matches he won all alone? In seaming conditions idk when he scored hundreds? tell me few pls. He was an underachiever in ODI but lets not say he never scored in tough conditons in NZ 2002, scored 2-100s when everyone was struggling In SL , on series where everyone was struggling n it was a low scoring series he was scoring runs. I think this was the series where sanga asked his bowler to bowl a no ball so he cudnt get a centuary philcric 1 Link to comment
zen Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 6 hours ago, mani sha said: he struggles and gets out . sehwag struggled but either survived and scored hundreds or made a brisk 25 and got out - no ball wastage rohit wastes and gets out . hence tuktuk . neither here nor there . respect for a duck in 4 balls rather than a 30 ball 15 Gambhir sr and rotation of strike was excellent for that era in current era - after the first ten runs , u need to accelerate . not after your 50 . i stopped watching one dayers played by india as i dont see them winning big tournaments bcci has rectified few things bowling is v good keepers are good lower middle order of pandya pant and shankar will do well kohli is perfect dhawan is awesome in onedayers our two liabilities are dhoni ( hai hai dhoni ) and rohit ( talunted!) rohits best innings was in t20 finals 10 years ago . his strokes are excellent . however he comes from the mumbai brigade - tendulkar ,mnjrekar ,rohit - play for a 100 first .. team gayi tel lene . more respect for delhi boys - sehwag , gambhir ,dhawan , kohli - team first pant following the tradition i have played first class cricket in india . i am from bombay - know how the thinking is - khadoos is a made up adjective for selfish. Some good points there .... Rohit has to try to get some runs quickly early on on batting friendly tracks or vacant the opening spot mani sha 1 Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 4 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: He was an underachiever in ODI but lets not say he never scored in tough conditons in NZ 2002, scored 2-100s when everyone was struggling In SL , on series where everyone was struggling n it was a low scoring series he was scoring runs. I think this was the series where sanga asked his bowler to bowl a no ball so he cudnt get a centuary Okay he has scored in tough condition but failed many times too. Thing is he threw his wicket many times and not conditions got him out in odis. His stats against two major sides of his era is shockingly bad as well. Link to comment
mani sha Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 On 2/18/2019 at 1:45 AM, rkt.india said: Sehwag is way too over rated as a one day batsmen. Test, a great. one day, just an above average to good. a lot of games Sehwag played - he was the difference . at start of innings he made say a 25 ball 30 or 35 invariably india were 65 for 1 in 10 overs . if he survived , he continued to play attacking shots and care a damn abt landmarks . he killed spinners. he made a 200 in one new ball era... his contributions allowed middle order to settle in - but it was a good middle order .dravid part 2 was one of the better odi bats of his time - see his 17 ball 50 . Yuvi and Raina were different players but same result - super accelerators . Dhoni part 1 was godlike . could do no wrong harbhajan , zaheer could tonk well . That kind of a lineup were blessed to have sehwag at the top . he is in my team above tendulkar ( selfless , opens and can play middle order - Viru and Dhawan would make a crazy opening partnership . Viru and Tendulkar was good too as unlike Rohit , Tendulkar didnt waste too many deliveries at start - would do ball wasting from 45-50 and from 90 - 100 . fans forget how we lost to bangladesh due to his 100! cant accuse Viru of ever loosing us a game . dil de khelta tha - Jaanbaaz zen 1 Link to comment
zen Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) Desperation shown by Rohit fanboys who have unnecessarily brough Sehwag in to this thread .... This thread is about making a relatively better use of PPs on batting friendly tracks in 2019 WC. And Rohit is being discussed because of how he goes slow till he gets to 50 PS Question 1. In 2019 WC, where par scores are expected to be 300+, Can Ind afford to waste PPs overs in possibly 6 of the 9 group games? Discuss Edited February 19, 2019 by zen Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 Damn people are so delusional and have their own fantasy world where they think sehwag's quick fire 30 or 40 runs will help alot when we are chasing like 330 or 350+. Other batsman will still have to score 300 combined. I know sehwag had impact and bowlers feared to bowl at him which they won't every do against rohit but that doesn't mean rohit is poor in every aspect of game when compared with sehwag. Link to comment
zen Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 20 minutes ago, Nikola said: Damn people are so delusional and have their own fantasy world where they think sehwag's quick fire 30 or 40 runs will help alot when we are chasing like 330 or 350+. Other batsman will still have to score 300 combined. I know sehwag had impact and bowlers feared to bowl at him which they won't every do against rohit but that doesn't mean rohit is poor in every aspect of game when compared with sehwag. Buddy, you need to pull up your socks to come to such discussions. For starters: Someone does not need to get out after scoring a quick 30-40. If he gets out, he would have placed his team in a better position vs getting out after scoring at a very slow SR (this is where that 55-60% of time avg 13 at 65 becomes a key point) Ind may not only have to chase 300+ but also set such totals if the par scores are in that range This is not about dropping Rohit but either him playing quickly or vacating his spot. His services can be utilized at other spots (esp. since he is supposed to be an improved player now. If not refer to one of my earlier posts) Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, zen said: Buddy, you need to pull up your socks to come to such discussions. For starters: Someone does not need to get out after scoring a quick 30-40. If he gets out, he would have placed his team in a better position vs getting out after scoring at a very slow SR (this is where that 55-60% of time avg 13 at 65 becomes a key point) Ind may not only have to chase 300+ but also set such totals if the par scores are in that range This is not about dropping Rohit but either him playing quickly or vacating his spot. His services can be utilized at other spots (esp. since he is supposed to be an improved player now. If not refer to one of my earlier posts) Wait this discussion started from rohit's strike rate and how come it ended with 50% failures and all? which is probably similar to all great openers we have had in past. Link to comment
zen Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 Just now, Nikola said: Wait this discussion started from rohit's strike rate and how come it ended with 50% failures and all? which is probably similar to all great openers we have had in past. Already explained that when he fails his avg and SR are the lowest. If he has to play like that, he has to be far more consistent View overall figures [change view] Primary team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 JAN 2017 Runs scored less than or equal to 49 Batting position between 1 and 2 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 200 Ordered by batting strike rate (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 10 of 10 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s C Munro (NZ) 2017-2019 22 22 0 382 49 17.36 380 100.52 0 0 4 48 10 S Dhawan (INDIA) 2017-2019 33 33 0 693 49 21.00 762 90.94 0 0 2 104 8 JM Bairstow (ENG) 2017-2018 20 20 1 504 44 26.52 560 90.00 0 0 1 63 8 DA Warner (AUS) 2017-2018 14 14 1 278 42 21.38 321 86.60 0 0 0 31 2 AK Markram (SA) 2018-2018 7 7 0 214 42 30.57 254 84.25 0 0 0 30 3 JJ Roy (ENG) 2017-2018 28 28 0 492 49 17.57 587 83.81 0 0 4 63 8 HM Amla (SA) 2017-2019 23 23 0 457 43 19.86 567 80.59 0 0 1 61 2 Q de Kock (SA) 2017-2019 20 20 0 425 47 21.25 555 76.57 0 0 2 42 2 MJ Guptill (NZ) 2017-2019 20 20 0 392 48 19.60 535 73.27 0 0 1 45 7 RG Sharma (INDIA) 2017-2019 26 26 0 330 48 12.69 527 62.61 0 0 2 31 11 When par scores are 300+, you cannot afford to have a player go at a SR of 65. And you will see many posters, who want to see Ind do well (not just Rohit) agree on this here Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, zen said: Already explained that when he fails his avg and SR are the lowest. If he has to play like that, he has to be far more consistent View overall figures [change view] Primary team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or South Africa Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 JAN 2017 Runs scored less than or equal to 49 Batting position between 1 and 2 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 200 Ordered by batting strike rate (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 10 of 10 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s C Munro (NZ) 2017-2019 22 22 0 382 49 17.36 380 100.52 0 0 4 48 10 S Dhawan (INDIA) 2017-2019 33 33 0 693 49 21.00 762 90.94 0 0 2 104 8 JM Bairstow (ENG) 2017-2018 20 20 1 504 44 26.52 560 90.00 0 0 1 63 8 DA Warner (AUS) 2017-2018 14 14 1 278 42 21.38 321 86.60 0 0 0 31 2 AK Markram (SA) 2018-2018 7 7 0 214 42 30.57 254 84.25 0 0 0 30 3 JJ Roy (ENG) 2017-2018 28 28 0 492 49 17.57 587 83.81 0 0 4 63 8 HM Amla (SA) 2017-2019 23 23 0 457 43 19.86 567 80.59 0 0 1 61 2 Q de Kock (SA) 2017-2019 20 20 0 425 47 21.25 555 76.57 0 0 2 42 2 MJ Guptill (NZ) 2017-2019 20 20 0 392 48 19.60 535 73.27 0 0 1 45 7 RG Sharma (INDIA) 2017-2019 26 26 0 330 48 12.69 527 62.61 0 0 2 31 11 When par scores are 300+, you cannot afford to have a player go at a SR of 65. And you will see many posters, who want to see Ind do well (not just Rohit) agree on this here Disagree. I know he plays slow at start and i don't mind if you drop him for few games because of that reason. But In the same time (jan 2017 till now) dhoni choked so many matches. You can't loose match by 8 balls wasted by rohit in matches he fails. Dhoni was batting with that strike rate in all matches both where we won or lost. Edited February 19, 2019 by Nikola Link to comment
zen Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Nikola said: Disagree. I know he plays slow at start and i don't mind if you drop him for few games because of that reason. But In the same time (jan 2017 till now) dhoni choked so many matches. You can't loose match by 8 balls wasted by rohit in matches he fails. Dhoni was batting with that strike rate in all matches both where we won or lost. Playing 20-25 balls in PPs of first 10 overs to get started is big in the context of high scoring games. If he plays 20-25 balls, the guy at the other end would have played similar # of balls, and we would be in over 8-9 when Rohit gets out .... Basically, first 10 overs are gone when you are trying to go at 7-8 RPO at least Edited February 19, 2019 by zen Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, zen said: Playing 20-25 balls in PPs of first 10 overs to get started is big in the context of high scoring games. If he plays 20-25 balls, the guy at the other end would have played similar # of balls, and we would be in over 8-9 when Rohit gets out .... Basically, first 10 overs are gone when you are trying to go at 7-8 RPO at least Stats clearly say rohit scores 12 - 13 runs and take around 21 balls when he fails. I know that's bad but not that bad to loose match. If so what are other players doing? Rohit covers other's failures on his day. Link to comment
zen Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Nikola said: Stats clearly say rohit scores 12 - 13 runs and take around 21 balls when he fails. I know that's bad but not that bad to loose match. If so what are other players doing? Rohit covers other's failures on his day. On good batting tracks, you are supposed to set the tone as well. As the saying goes well begun is half done .... And playing quickly does not mean getting out sooner. And we have guys like Kohli too, who avg much higher Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, zen said: On good batting tracks, you are supposed to set the tone as well. As the saying goes well begun is half done .... And playing quickly does not mean getting out sooner. And we have guys like Kohli too, who avg much higher If it's that easy to avg high then tell me how many openers have averaged 50+ in their career? Link to comment
zen Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Nikola said: If it's that easy to avg high then tell me how many openers have averaged 50+ in their career? .... the stats tells you that Rohit is lowest with both Avg and SR. Implying that others are playing more freely and do not put averages above everything else Gavaskar is in his last 2-3 years probably averaged 45 iirc in the era of less than 250 par scores. But it is Richards who is rated higher in ODIs because of his avg and SR parameters this is not about “is Rohit bad”. This is about making the best of PP on good batting tracks Since Rohit avg 13 at a SR of 65 most of the time. Ind is wasting PPs to a certain extent in most of its games. If we take your 21 balls, by the time he gets out 7-8 overs are gone. Where you would expect to go at 7-8 RPO at least. So instead of being 50 after 7 with 3 PP remaining on good batting tracks, India would be much less (with others having to take more risks with fewer wkts in hand). The new batsman coming in unlikely to take risk immediately with 1 wkt down. At 50-1 after 7, Ind has at least started on the right foot. If Ind is 50-0, it is even better Edited February 19, 2019 by zen Nikola 1 Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, zen said: .... the stats tells you that Rohit is lowest with both Avg and SR. Implying that others are playing more freely and do not put averages above everything else Gavaskar is in his last 2-3 years probably averaged 45 iirc in the era of less than 250 par scores. But it is Richards who is rated higher in ODIs because of his avg and SR parameters this is not about “is Rohit bad”. This is about making the best of PP on good batting tracks Since Rohit avg 13 at a SR of 65 most of the time. Ind is wasting PPs to a certain extent in most of its games. If we take your 21 balls, by the time he gets out 7-8 overs are gone. Where you would expect to go at 7-8 RPO at least. So instead of being 50 after 7 with 3 PP remaining on good batting tracks, India would be much less (with others having to take more risks with fewer wkts in hand). The new batsman coming in unlikely to take risk immediately with 1 wkt down. At 50-1 after 7, Ind has at least started on the right foot. If Ind is 50-0, it is even better Wait what? he don't avg that. If so even bradman won't avg 50+ leave 100. I have agreed upon him batting bit more fast like taking 4 - 5 less balls in his failures which will make impact in close games but winning or loosing will then depend if other batsman can put big score. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now