Who should bat at No.6, Kaify or Yuvraj??

[Ram]

Let me help you - a FC average of 42 displaying an ineptness at playing long meaningful innings, looking like a batsman out of the Walsh school of batting when confronted with spin, and a propensity to dig his heels so deep in the pitch that it feels like cement when it comes to facing seaming conditions. And I just hope your comparison of 20/20 with test batting was nothing more than an ill timed joke.

I think we have already established that FC records count for almost nothing at the international level. We have seen enough instances of players like Sujith Somasundar, Vijay Bharadwaj and Vikram Rathore hit mediocre FC attacks all over the place to aggregate well over a 1000 runs per season, only to come an absolute cropper at the international level. And all the talk Yuvraj not being able to seam is just a myth. All of his 3 100s have come when an opposition seamer had dismissed most of our top-order cheaply. And he is one of the most murderous players of spin EVER. Only, he needs to have settled down already for him to dominate the spinners.

[The Outsider]

I think we have already established that FC records count for almost nothing at the international level. We have seen enough instances of players like Sujith Somasundar, Vijay Bharadwaj and Vikram Rathore hit mediocre FC attacks all over the place to aggregate well over a 1000 runs per season, only to come an absolute cropper at the international level. And all the talk Yuvraj not being able to seam is just a myth. All of his 3 100s have come when an opposition seamer had dismissed most of our top-order cheaply. And he is one of the most murderous players of spin EVER. Only, he needs to have settled down already for him to dominate the spinners.

Yes, there are numerous instances of players with high FC averages coming a cropper at the international level, have never denied that. But you'll be hard pressed to find success stories at international level for mediocre FC players. I am not even going to respond to laughable assertions like Yuvraj being a murderous player of spin.

[Ram]

Yes' date=' there are numerous instances of players with high FC averages coming a cropper at the international level, have never denied that. But you'll be hard pressed to find success stories at international level for mediocre FC players. [/quote'] You dont have to, the evidence is already out there for all to see, which is Yuvraj's performance in ODIs. Now, I know you will be immediately tempted to come up with ' Test and one-day cricket are completely different' which I strongly contend. Yes, Yuvi has a mediocre test record till now, but there is absolutely no reason why he cant improve on it. Dravid started out as a test specialist, to finish with over 10,000 runs in ODIs. And more pertinently, If someone had asked you at around late 2004 that whether you'd think Yuvraj will score nearly 3000 runs in ODIs at an average of over 45 in the next 3 years, I am pretty sure you would have dismissed such a possibility. But thats exactly what he managed to do. He re-invented himself in ODIs, he will do the same in tests too.

I am not even going to respond to laughable assertions like Yuvraj being a murderous player of spin.

As I said, he needs to be set. He will always look an uncertain batsman against spin coz of his huge backlift, but that doesnt mean he cant play spin.

[Bumper]

Jaffer also outperformed poster boy in WI and against England when both played together.

In the only tricky pitch at Kingston, Jaffer & Kaif were as useless as Yuvraj. And for Yuvraj's failures on other roads in WI when others succeeded, you can trade his Karachi 100 when no one crossed 50 in that innings. Point is that they are all cr@p outside the subcontinent (as in England, NZ, Aus, SA type conditions). Hyping one up over the other is just a matter of personal preference.

Dhoni keeps wickets and anyways average four times more than poster boy in Australia.

Fair enough. But no one seems bothered about his batting. He is next inline for captaincy, which makes the question all the more relevant.

Kaif never got a chance to play tests in SA and had outperformed poster boy every single time they have played the same opposition in a test/series.

Right. What about the ODIs then ? These were not 350+ pancakes where Kaif didnt have time to build an innings. In most games, we couldnt bat 50 overs. If Kaipoo is so gritty & talented why couldnt he build a single innings in such conditions. Bottom line: Kaipoo is as cr@p as Yuvraj.

Yeah, they are awesome prospects as poster boy is an awesome failure. Emphasis on prospect ie. we don't know enough about them but the fact that there is very little chance they'll do worse than poster boy.

This is an unknown. Cant argue!

No, not only did poster boy fail in Australia, he has failed everywhere outside the subcontinent. He has failed against all quality spinners he has faced and he has failed to breach the 45 run barrier in FC matches, forget about 50.

Failed against all quality spinners ? One his most successful series (vs SL), when he averaged 50+, came against Murali in spinning Indian pitches. I am not saying Yuvraj is a quality test player, he is perhaps, far from it, but if you are gonna make a case for proven failures like Kaipoo & others by comparing the latter's performances in India vs the former's in Australia, the comparison is far from fair. Further, dropping Yuvi based on his exploits in Australia makes little sense, as he is likely to succeed in these conditions. If he doesnt after all the faith instilled in him, toss him for good

[fineleg]

Further, dropping Yuvi based on his exploits in Australia makes little sense, as he is likely to succeed in these conditions. If he doesnt after all the faith instilled in him, toss him for good

absolutely. Last chance in Tests.

[King Tendulkar]

Further' date=' dropping Yuvi based on his exploits in Australia makes little sense, as he is likely to succeed in these conditions. If he doesnt after all the faith instilled in him, toss him for good[/quote'] totally agree.

[theguyinallblue]

well...unconfirmed news are claiming that its Yuvi who will get a chance to play in the match tomorrow.. Kaifu did not practice at the nets at all....

[King Tendulkar]

well...unconfirmed news are claiming that its Yuvi who will get a chance to play in the match tomorrow.. Kaifu did not practice at the nets at all....

:bhangra::dancing2::tee::rock::cheers:

[cochise]

Win-win. Yuvi with the bat and Kaif to substitute for Ganguly in the field. Couldn't be better.

[The Outsider]

You dont have to, the evidence is already out there for all to see, which is Yuvraj's performance in ODIs. Now, I know you will be immediately tempted to come up with ' Test and one-day cricket are completely different' which I strongly contend.

Really, what can I say when your line of argument is that Tests and ODIs are similar to the extent that success in one form guarantees success in the other format. If that was the case guys like Harris, Fairbrother, Bevan would have been all time test greats.

And more pertinently, If someone had asked you at around late 2004 that whether you'd think Yuvraj will score nearly 3000 runs in ODIs at an average of over 45 in the next 3 years, I am pretty sure you would have dismissed such a possibility. But thats exactly what he managed to do. He re-invented himself in ODIs, he will do the same in tests too.

Not true. I have been a strong backer of Yuvraj in ODIs and think he has the game to succeed in it. But even now, I feel he has it in him to improve his ODI performance which has been very mediocre when faced with the best in business.

As I said, he needs to be set. He will always look an uncertain batsman against spin coz of his huge backlift, but that doesnt mean he cant play spin.

And quality test teams will afford his highness the luxury of getting set so he can "murder" the spinners even if I buy your argument?

[The Outsider]

In the only tricky pitch at Kingston, Jaffer & Kaif were as useless as Yuvraj. And for Yuvraj's failures on other roads in WI when others succeeded, you can trade his Karachi 100 when no one crossed 50 in that innings. Point is that they are all cr@p outside the subcontinent (as in England, NZ, Aus, SA type conditions). Hyping one up over the other is just a matter of personal preference.

Kaif has played one series outside the subcontinent and succeeded there and did well against Australia at Nagpur, Chennai, and even Bombay where he made a crucial 25 odd in the second innings. The Nagpur wicket would not even be counted as a subcontinental wicket for all practical purposes and doing well against that Australian attack with McGrath, Gillespie, Warne, and Kappa - all of them at the top of their game - under any conditions requires some doing. He had a weakness of not being able to go on to big scores but seems to have overcome that given his FC season this year. He hardly did anything wrong to be dropped from the test side in the first place and certainly offers much more promise than Yuvraj.

Right. What about the ODIs then ? These were not 350+ pancakes where Kaif didnt have time to build an innings. In most games, we couldnt bat 50 overs. If Kaipoo is so gritty & talented why couldnt he build a single innings in such conditions. Bottom line: Kaipoo is as cr@p as Yuvraj.

I don't like mixing ODI performances with tests. They are completely different ball games and if Sehwag was to an extent dropped from tests for his ODI performance then the difference is even more for Kaif, who did absolutely nothing wrong in tests to be dropped on the basis of his crap ODI performances and form.

I am not saying Yuvraj is a quality test player, he is perhaps, far from it, but if you are gonna make a case for proven failures like Kaipoo & others by comparing the latter's performances in India vs the former's in Australia, the comparison is far from fair.

How exactly is Kaif a proven failure, I don't understand! The guy scored a century in the last series he played averaging 40+ in the series, saved us from certain defeat against England against a quality bowling attack, did well against the best bowling attack of this decade at the top of their game when the rest of the batting line up was being blown to smitherens. If "proven failure" is a tag to be given to someone then there is none more worthy of it than Yuvraj. Whenever Yuvraj and Kaif have played together, which would be the fairest comparison as far as bowling attacks and conditions go, or in the same series Kaif has outperformed Yuvraj by a country mile.

[Sachinism]

personally i feel someone else should have been given the chance, but since its out of them both, i'd pick kaif just because yuvi has been given way too many chances, it needs to be made clear to him that his place in the team in not guaranteed, he really needs to pull up his socks one worry with taking kaif is having him and dravid in the middle order, could really put everyone to sleep

[Ram]

Really' date=' what can I say when your line of argument is that Tests and ODIs are similar to the extent that success in one form guarantees success in the other format. If that was the case guys like Harris, Fairbrother, Bevan would have been all time test greats.[/quote'] Conversely, I can say that the number of cases of players prospering brilliantly in one form of the game, only to fail miserably in the other form, is minuscule. If you come up with a handful of names like Bevan, Harris and Fairbrother who did in ODIs, but failed in tests, then I can come up 2 dozen names of batsman who have done well in both, which indicates that even statistically, batsman who have excelled in one form of the sport go on to excel in other forms of it too. Another potential reason to back Yuvraj. Besides, I never claimed ODI success *guarantees* test success for Yuvraj. I have merely said that he has the talent and temperament to succeed in international cricket. Compared to these two Ts, other Ts like Technique pale in comparison.

Not true. I have been a strong backer of Yuvraj in ODIs and think he has the game to succeed in it. But even now' date=' I feel he has it in him to improve his ODI performance which has been very mediocre when faced with the best in business.[/quote'] Good point, but the discussion isnt about that. Compared to his pre-2004 times, Yuvraj in ODIs between 2005-2008 has been nothing short of brilliant, which is what we are interested in. So, there is no reason why he cant replicate this transformation in tests too. How well has really done, is there room for improvement etc are subjects of an entirely different debate altogether.

And quality test teams will afford his highness the luxury of getting set so he can "murder" the spinners even if I buy your argument?

He has 3 test hundreds, all in tough circumstances. Thats says to me that he has what it takes to succeed in this level. Its just a matter of time. And more to the point, we have seen plenty of evidence of his mental toughness in umpteen one-day games he has played. And to finish off, we must remember, Yuvraj is still ONLY 26. Most batsmans' careers dont even start by 26 and guys like Langer and Hayden came back after initial failures to do brilliantly in test cricket. History has enough instances of batsman starting poorly and yet coming back to finish their careers strongly.

[Kartikey]

We might be going in with a 5 man bowling attack which might be quite bad with IKP coming in, and Piyush may play as the 3rd spinner. IKP will silence all his critics - :hatsoff::hatsoff:

[The Outsider]

Conversely, I can say that the number of cases of players prospering brilliantly in one form of the game, only to fail miserably in the other form, is minuscule. If you come up with a handful of names like Bevan, Harris and Fairbrother who did in ODIs, but failed in tests, then I can come up 2 dozen names of batsman who have done well in both, which indicates that even statistically, batsman who have excelled in one form of the sport go on to excel in other forms of it too. Another potential reason to back Yuvraj.

People succeeding in ODIs and failing in tests are dime a dozen, the converse admittedly is rare. But that's not even the entire point. You and many others try to use his performances in ODIs as an indicator for his success in tests. It doesn't work like that. Even when he was in superb ODI form a couple of seasons back and a few months back he bombed in tests. What wrong have others done not to be given a chance ahead of him?

Besides, I never claimed ODI success *guarantees* test success for Yuvraj. I have merely said that he has the talent and temperament to succeed in international cricket. Compared to these two Ts, other Ts like Technique pale in comparison.

Temperament? A FC average around 40 shows no temperament for playing long innings - a must for test cricket. Talent? Pakistan is full of talented cricketers, maybe Yuvraj should try out his chances there in a country where selection process is based on talent and not performance.

So, there is no reason why he cant replicate this transformation in tests too.

There are many reasons for it and have been said at various times on this board including this thread. Just because you prefer to close your eyes to them and keep on going gaga about ODIs doesn't mean those reasons don't exist.

And to finish off, we must remember, Yuvraj is still ONLY 26. Most batsmans' careers dont even start by 26 and guys like Langer and Hayden came back after initial failures to do brilliantly in test cricket. History has enough instances of batsman starting poorly and yet coming back to finish their careers strongly.

Hayden, Langer, Martyn all did hard yards in domestic cricket piling on runs and performances. That's exactly what Yuvraj should be doing after bombing in test matches rather than being carried around in the team as a first choice middle order replacement when there are so many better batsmen available in the country. Many people have come back strongly after poor starts but not by carrying drinks, playing in the nets, and w@nking off in one interview after another about how much they want to play test cricket. I just hope they pick Pathan/Kaif over Yuvraj and not keep a walking wicket in the side.

[fineleg]

I just hope they pick Pathan/Kaif over Yuvraj and not keep a walking wicket in the side.

Shwetabh, Agreed with pretty much everything you've said in various posts in this thread. Except for this: " not keep a walking wicket in the side" In patta Indian pitches, and with SA side lacking quality spinner, YS is not a walking wicket. (hopefully), they shud play him at Motera, and if the Yuseless fails here, then lets jettison him once for all from Tests after this. But in general he sucks big time in Tests, yeah.

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh, Agreed with pretty much everything you've said in various posts in this thread. Except for this: " not keep a walking wicket in the side" In patta Indian pitches, and with SA side lacking quality spinner, YS is not a walking wicket. (hopefully), they shud play him at Motera, and if the Yuseless fails here, then lets jettison him once for all from Tests after this. But in general he sucks big time in Tests, yeah.

If its a flat track similar to Madras, Pathan is as good a batsman as Yuvraj besides giving us the extra bowling option.

[Laaloo]

If its a flat track similar to Madras' date=' Pathan is as good a batsman as Yuvraj besides giving us the extra bowling option.[/quote'] imo yuvi can make a bigger impact on a 5th day pitch more than bhajji thats IMO

[fineleg]

@shwetabh: Frankly, I'm not too excited by Pathan bowling in Test matches in India. He will most likely trundle. Probably good to have as 5th relief bowler...but still. Anyway, Instead of RP Singh, Pathan should play. (since I.S. seems to be injured)

[graphic23]

I don't particularly want Pathan to bowl now either. He was terrific at Perth and even in ODIs where the pitch offered a bit to the bowlers. I felt he was below average at SCG and at Adelaide, so I don't think it is right to make him bowl on really flat pitches when he's not comfortable with it or that he hasn't learned how to yet, maybe? I'd really like to see Ishant in the team if he's comfortable with playing. I hope they give RP a rest. He was brilliant until he came to India (WTH?). Perhaps, he ought to learn from Zaheer a bit more about how to bowl on these types of pitches. He's young so we can afford to rest him a bit and ask him to learn this.