Tendulkar versus Kallis

[Jay]

Agreed with above. 

 

Guess what

 

Kalis stats vs top bowlers of his era is 39. 

 

Tenda stats vs top bowlers of his era is 45. 

 

Not to mention kalis feasted on some weaker Indian bowlers at the time. His average rises to 42 when Indian bowlers are involved. Our Indian attack was not a great attack in kaliss era. It was ATG level post 2015. 

 

Tenda had to play ATG level bowlers from SA involving steyn Donald etc. 

Yet he averaged 44 even with them included. 

[zen]

48 minutes ago, Jay said:

Tenda had to play ATG level bowlers from SA involving steyn Donald etc. 

 

Note that playing and doing well are two different things  - SA 92 and 96, Pak 99, NZ 2002, SL 2008, ... 

 

Even in the 90s, he played most of his games versus SL, NZ, & Eng and often failed versus strong attacks (apart from a 100 here and there like Rahane or Pant recently versus SA) 

 

Anyways continue ... 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by zen

[Majestic]

13 hours ago, anish2tweet said:

Dravid won more Test matches for us than Sachin, then I wonder why Sachin is being treated like God.
Poor second innings average means Sachin was not a match winner in crunch situations.

Sent from my CPH1819 using Tapatalk
 

Graeme Smith also won more test matches for South Africa than Jacques Kallis did.

 

Those memorable wins in 2008 Australia and England had Smith's name stamped in it. Kallis went missing in that series.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Majestic

[zen]

 

No wonder Sachin shied away from batting in the top order (#1-3) in tests 

Edited February 1, 2022 by zen

[Jay]

4 hours ago, zen said:

 

Note that playing and doing well are two different things  - SA 92 and 96, Pak 99, NZ 2002, SL 2008, ... 

 

Even in the 90s, he played most of his games versus SL, NZ, & Eng and often failed versus strong attacks (apart from a 100 here and there like Rahane or Pant recently versus SA) 

 

Anyways continue ... 

 

 

Both struggled tbh. Tenda atleast fared better vs the better bowlers. 

[zen]

19 minutes ago, Jay said:

Both struggled tbh. Tenda atleast fared better vs the better bowlers. 

 

At #4 for e.g. when both McGrath and Warne (considered the best bowling attack of that period) are playing for Aus, Kallis averages 55, while Tendulkar 42

Edited February 1, 2022 by zen

[Jay]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

 

At #4 for e.g. when both McGrath and Warne (considered the best bowling attack of that period) are playing for Aus, Kallis averages 55, while Tendulkar 42

Are we only looking at those 2 as the benchmark? I posted stats which included all top bowlers including ambrose Walsh wasim shoaib Jimmy broad etc. 

 

Tenda came out on top. 

 

I honestly don't like tenda but I will admit I was wrong. However in second innings chases kalis I believe comes out on top.4thbinnings average of 50 is u heard of.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Jay

[zen]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

Are we only looking at those 2 as the benchmark? I posted stats which included all top bowlers including ambrose Walsh wasim shoaib Jimmy broad etc. 

 

Tenda came out on top. 

 

I honestly don't like tenda but I will admit I was wrong. However in second innings chases kalis I believe comes out on top.4thbinnings average of 50 is u heard of.

I haven’t looked at your stats but yeah an attack with both McGrath & Warne in it would be the benchmark for that period 

 

If you average 55 at 4 against an attack with both McGrath & Warne playing in places like Aus/SA, it is commendable 

 

I have actually watched Tendulkar play most of his games so …

[Jay]

29 minutes ago, zen said:

I haven’t looked at your stats but yeah an attack with both McGrath & Warne in it would be the benchmark for that period 

 

If you average 55 at 4 against an attack with both McGrath & Warne playing in places like Aus/SA, it is commendable 

 

I have actually watched Tendulkar play most of his games so …

But tend doesn't get to feast on rp Singh sreesanth etc. 

 

From a stat point of view including all top bowlers across the globe at that time period, tenda comes out on top purely as a batsman. 

 

In saying that, from the games I have watched, I don't recall tenda ever helping india win from a difficult situation or hell I don't recall him doing well in chases in sena. 

 

I do recall kalis doing so. 

 

I personally would pick kalis obviously cause he adds more balance. Purely as a batsman? I am not too sure because tenda dint have the benefit of playing alongside the likes of steyn Donald etc. 

[zen]

25 minutes ago, Jay said:

But tend doesn't get to feast on rp Singh sreesanth etc. 

 

From a stat point of view including all top bowlers across the globe at that time period, tenda comes out on top purely as a batsman. 

 

In saying that, from the games I have watched, I don't recall tenda ever helping india win from a difficult situation or hell I don't recall him doing well in chases in sena. 

 

I do recall kalis doing so. 

 

I personally would pick kalis obviously cause he adds more balance. Purely as a batsman? I am not too sure because tenda dint have the benefit of playing alongside the likes of steyn Donald etc. 

 

Teams just don't play India ... They play Aus, SA, Pak, SL, and so on 

[Jay]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Teams just don't play India ... They play Aus, SA, Pak, SL, and so on 

Yea factoring that in, tenda averages 45

Kalis 39 excluding s Africa and India. 

 

It's not like kalis had dud openers in s.africa. in that period s.africa produced a lot of flatties. 

 

Anyway tenda is the clear winner here. Better batsman. But kalis is the better overall package. 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

Yea factoring that in, tenda averages 45

Kalis 39 excluding s Africa and India. 

 

It's not like kalis had dud openers in s.africa. in that period s.africa produced a lot of flatties. 

 

Anyway tenda is the clear winner here. Better batsman. But kalis is the better overall package. 

 

Have you seen Kallis bat?

 

PS are you quoting some stats that you did? 

Edited February 2, 2022 by zen

[Jay]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Have you seen Kallis bat?

 

PS are you quoting some stats that you did? 

Ofcourse I have seen kalis bat. He used to be a fast bowler who could bat when he started. He is the best cricketer of all time by far. 

 

But purely as a batsman, I will give the edge to tenda. 

 

From the stats that I posted vs all top bowlers of that era, tenda came out on top if you exclude s.africa and India. 

Which means tenda did better vs the rest of the field. If you include s.africa and India then it's neck and neck. Not much to separate. Difference being kalis could feast on sreesanth rp Singh etc who were good bowlers but not world class. Tenda had to face steyn against whome he averaged 50 in the twilight of his career, Donald (struggled a bit here 42 average) and Pollock etc. 

 

Bear in mind, we would need to evaluate pitch conditions which varies across seasons in most places to make a proper judgement. I want to see results based on who performed better in specific conditions. It would be a long process though. 

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Jay said:

Ofcourse I have seen kalis bat. He used to be a fast bowler who could bat when he started. He is the best cricketer of all time by far. 

 

But purely as a batsman, I will give the edge to tenda. 

 

From the stats that I posted vs all top bowlers of that era, tenda came out on top if you exclude s.africa and India. 

Which means tenda did better vs the rest of the field. If you include s.africa and India then it's neck and neck. Not much to separate. Difference being kalis could feast on sreesanth rp Singh etc who were good bowlers but not world class. Tenda had to face steyn against whome he averaged 50 in the twilight of his career, Donald (struggled a bit here 42 average) and Pollock etc. 

 

Bear in mind, we would need to evaluate pitch conditions which varies across seasons in most places to make a proper judgement. I want to see results based on who performed better in specific conditions. It would be a long process though. 

 

I glanced at your data and will suggest you to not do it in that way ... To put it in plain terms, it would be like someone showing a bowler's stats with Kallis and Tendulkar and Lara and Ponting (all from different teams) in the opposition 

 

To have some credibility to the numbers, you need to know a) the overall strength of the bowling attack, and b) ideally, a pair of good bowlers from one team ("all" not "any")

 

These stats are not against bowlers but with teams with those bowlers 

 

You could have spent your time in a better way!!

 

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I glanced at your data and will suggest you to not do it in that way ... To put it in plain terms, it would be like someone showing a bowler's stats with Kallis and Tendulkar and Lara and Ponting (all from different teams) in the opposition 

 

To have some credibility to the numbers, you need to know a) the overall strength of the bowling attack, and b) ideally, a pair of good bowlers from one team ("all" not "any")

 

These stats are not against bowlers but with teams with those bowlers 

 

You could have spent your time in a better way!!

 

Yes I included 2 to 3 from all top teams. I had mcwarne together

Pollock and Donald

Steyn and morkel

Anderson and broad

Shoaib and wasim

 

 

Based on that looked like tenda came out on top. 

 

Tbf the whole comparison Is hard to make when both players aren't playing in the same team to judge them effectively. 

 

Because tenda never had the bowling attack of saffer to support him. Many times big totals were posted but bowling let them down on several occasions. Kalis on the other hand had some ATG bowlers to play alongside him. Their bowling attack would create pressure on opposition which allows batsmen to bat freely as their bowling attack would render opposition teams to below par scores. 

 

So what we can do is judge them against the rest of the field with the exclusion of india and s Africa. Tenda did better as a pure batsman.

[zen]

Just now, Jay said:

Yes I included 2 to 3 from all top teams. I had mcwarne together

Pollock and Donald

Steyn and morkel

Anderson and broad

Shoaib and wasim

 

 

Based on that looked like tenda came out on top. 

 

Tbf the whole comparison Is hard to make when both players aren't playing in the same team to judge them effectively. 

 

Because tenda never had the bowling attack of saffer to support him. Many times big totals were posted but bowling let them down on several occasions. Kalis on the other hand had some ATG bowlers to play alongside him. Their bowling attack would create pressure on opposition which allows batsmen to bat freely as their bowling attack would render opposition teams to below par scores. 

 

So what we can do is judge them against the rest of the field with the exclusion of india and s Africa. Tenda did better as a pure batsman.

 

As I said, you could have spent your time in a better way 

 

You have to have both bowlers in the team ("all" not "any", which I think you do not probably understand). And do it individually for all teams, and "manually" calculate stats 

 

Statsguru is just a data bank. The person doing the stats has to "use" that data appropriately including understanding how to generate a correct data set 

 

That is all that I have to say ... 

[Jay]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I glanced at your data and will suggest you to not do it in that way ... To put it in plain terms, it would be like someone showing a bowler's stats with Kallis and Tendulkar and Lara and Ponting (all from different teams) in the opposition 

 

To have some credibility to the numbers, you need to know a) the overall strength of the bowling attack, and b) ideally, a pair of good bowlers from one team ("all" not "any")

 

These stats are not against bowlers but with teams with those bowlers 

 

You could have spent your time in a better way!!

 

BTW against mcwarne 

Kalis averaged 38.

 

Tenda was 42. 

 

He played 29 games vs australia. 18 involved mcwarne

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/45789.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;player_involve=2000;player_involve=2101;template=results;type=allround

 

[Jay]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

 

As I said, you could have spent your time in a better way 

 

You have to have both bowlers in the team ("all" not "any", which I think you do not probably understand). And do it individually for all teams, and "manually" calculate stats 

 

Statsguru is just a data bank. The person doing the stats has to "use" that data appropriately including understanding how to generate a correct data set 

 

That is all that I have to say ... 

Yea fair enough. I get what you are saying. Individually ffs will take forever. You do it Lel.

[zen]

Just now, Jay said:

BTW against mcwarne 

Kalis averaged 38.

 

Tenda was 42. 

 

He played 29 games vs australia. 18 involved mcwarne

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/45789.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;player_involve=2000;player_involve=2101;template=results;type=allround

 

 

I know most of the cricket stats and I had my own database as well (probably still there on one of my old computers) ... Below is a note on that particular stat:

 

 

 

[Jay]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I know most of the cricket stats and I had my own database as well (probably still there on one of my old computers) ... Below is a note on that particular stat:

 

 

 

You are right. 

Anyway turns out tenda averaged 36 vs mcgrath and 60 when Warne played. 

 

Not sure about games when both played together. I would have to look at each game individually.