Tribute thread: Gutkesh (mukesh) Express Kumar

[express bowling]

17 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Never said he was Mcgrath.

 

Still a genius. Not at all overrated.

 

In fact, longevity would have (likely) cemented his legacy cos he never needed pace to make a dent.

 

The way he would get the ball to jag in and out was scary.

 

Pietersen, Amla, Devilliers rate him as the toughest or one of the toughest they faced.

 

And they faced guys like Steyn, Anderson, Mcgrath and so many other ATGs.

 

Asif averaged 35 in Australia and 42 in Pakistan.

 

He wasn't an all-condition bowler but someone who looked dangerous if movement was on offer and not so good without movement. 

[sensible-indian]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Asif averaged 35 in Australia and 42 in Pakistan.

 

He wasn't an all-condition bowler but someone who looked dangerous if movement was on offer and not so good without movement. 

Yes but he did have good spells in Aus.

 

When your team is getting brutalized in aus, any bowler would get their stats tarnished.

 

Plus its just 4 tests.

 

He averaged 10 on SL on some flatties.

 

18 in SA

 

19 in NZ

 

28 in Eng

 

And yes 42 in Pak in 4 tests and that record was bound to improve cos thats his home.

 

His bad stats are in 2 countries that have the reputation of rolling out pattas.

 

Whether he would have been a force on total dead pattas...that is uncertain.

 

But on any decent enough pitch, he was a serious threat.

 

 

 

Edited February 23 by sensible-indian

[express bowling]

10 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Yes but he did have good spells in Aus.

 

When your team is getting brutalized in aus, any bowler would get their stats tarnished.

 

Plus its just 4 tests.

 

He averaged 10 on SL on some flatties.

 

18 in SA

 

19 in NZ

 

28 in Eng

 

And yes 42 in Pak in 4 tests and that record was bound to improve cos thats his home.

 

His bad stats are in 2 countries that have the reputation of rolling out pattas.

 

Whether he would have been a force on total dead pattas...that is uncertain.

 

But on any decent enough pitch, he was a serious threat.

 

 

 

 

Average of 28 in England is s bit disappointing too for someone who is being compared to ATGs.

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Never said he was Mcgrath.

 

Still a genius. Not at all overrated.

 

In fact, longevity would have (likely) cemented his legacy cos he never needed pace to make a dent.

 

The way he would get the ball to jag in and out was scary.

 

Pietersen, Amla, Devilliers rate him as the toughest or one of the toughest they faced.

 

And they faced guys like Steyn, Anderson, Mcgrath and so many other ATGs.

neither did Abbas or Philander. didn't make either of them a "genius" either. ditto for Jamieson, Jansen, etc.

 

there are plenty of bowlers who start off with a bang, and then fade later. Even Botham from the 70s.

[Vijy]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Asif averaged 35 in Australia and 42 in Pakistan.

 

He wasn't an all-condition bowler but someone who looked dangerous if movement was on offer and not so good without movement. 

that's right. he was a somewhat better version of philander, that's about it. And I wouldn't call phil-trundler a great bowler compared to likes of steyn, pollock, donald, or even fanie de villiers (all from SA)

[sensible-indian]

6 hours ago, Vijy said:

neither did Abbas or Philander. didn't make either of them a "genius" either. ditto for Jamieson, Jansen, etc.

 

there are plenty of bowlers who start off with a bang, and then fade later. Even Botham from the 70s.

Nah..Asif was clearly leagues above Abbas, Jansen and Jamieson who are not even in the same planet as him.

 

Philander was a great bowler everywhere except Asia tho. Maybe had some issues on flatties but remember him doing well in Aus and England on pitches that were made flat to nuetralize Steyn.

 

Asif may or may not have faded. But thats a different debate.

Edited February 23 by sensible-indian

[sensible-indian]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Average of 28 in England is s bit disappointing too for someone who is being compared to ATGs.

He defo isn't an ATG consideringthe amount of tests he played.

 

But the way he was shaping up, he was likely to do very well.

 

 

Edited February 23 by sensible-indian

[Kron]

12 hours ago, Vijy said:

that's right. he was a somewhat better version of philander, that's about it. And I wouldn't call phil-trundler a great bowler compared to likes of steyn, pollock, donald, or even fanie de villiers (all from SA)

Wouldnt even say he is bettee than phil trundler who was trash in asia mostly. Especially in india. 

 

I dont want anyone westerner to give me some nonsense about how pitches in india are good for pace bowlers. Rubbish

 

Plenty of reverse swing, some pitches have good carry as well.

You need to be a really good bowler to get wickets in india

[Jaydev_Unadkat]

It is disgusting to see such disrespectful and demeaning words being used for one of the domestic Legends of Indian Cricket.

As if all of you basement dwellers have done anything in your life.

I know some of you fill cars in gas pumps and others work as salesman in a chappal store. Look at yourself first 

[Kron]

22 hours ago, Vijy said:

overrated. great bowler, but not on the same level as McGrath who operated for 15+ yr without being dominated. Asif's career was not long enough to see what strategies batters would evolve against him. His overall record is not that diff from Mohd Abbas, who is not a "genius" by any means.

Shami is better than asif

[Jaydev_Unadkat]

On 2/21/2024 at 1:52 PM, ungboysj said:

I feel he is good and will do well in SENA.

he is being criminally underrated here

 

Reminds me of asif

You are the only sane poster here. The others are bandwagon jumping virgins who have no idea how a sport is played in real life.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Jaydev_Unadkat said:

It is disgusting to see such disrespectful and demeaning words being used for one of the domestic Legends of Indian Cricket.

As if all of you basement dwellers have done anything in your life.

I know some of you fill cars in gas pumps and others work as salesman in a chappal store. Look at yourself first 

Yeah and we all have also seen how respectful you were while using the word "prashit", at that time all the respect and honor towards a player goes into the trash bin. You were "venomful", not critical but "venomful"...and now when your uber trundler Mukesh has turned into a failure just like Unadkut, you're humping off the higher moral ground.

 

And what's wrong if someone is working at the chappal store salesman ? Not everyone is born to a privileged family with all the resources & money around them. Wasn't Rinku Singh delivering cylinders and Yashasvi was selling panipuris to meet their ends ? 

[Vijy]

7 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Nah..Asif was clearly leagues above Abbas, Jansen and Jamieson who are not even in the same planet as him.

 

Philander was a great bowler everywhere except Asia tho. Maybe had some issues on flatties but remember him doing well in Aus and England on pitches that were made flat to nuetralize Steyn.

 

Asif may or may not have faded. But thats a different debate.

Philander being great everywhere besides Asia doesn't mean much. it's the analog of a spinner doing well in Asia and not doing well elsewhere. Pitches in Eng were much more swing/seam friendly (broad had many potent spells then), so his excellent record came on fairly helpful tracks. As for Aus, he took 3 wkts per match at an avg of 30 in Aus.

 

Asif would have turned out about the same, I am quite certain. Moreover, given his proven record of cheating, phenomena like ball tampering can't be excluded either.

[Vijy]

9 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Yeah and we all have also seen how respectful you were while using the word "prashit", at that time all the respect and honor towards a player goes into the trash bin. You were "venomful", not critical but "venomful"...and now when your uber trundler Mukesh has turned into a failure just like Unadkut, you're humping off the higher moral ground.

 

And what's wrong if someone is working at the chappal store salesman ? Not everyone is born to a privileged family with all the resources & money around them. Wasn't Rinku Singh delivering cylinders and Yashasvi was selling panipuris to meet their ends ? 

so many of our players, scientists (e.g., ramanujan, satyen bose), etc are/were from poor backgrounds. I don't see why that should be seen as an insult. if anything, it's a huge point in their favor

[singhvivek141]

5 minutes ago, Vijy said:

so many of our players, scientists (e.g., ramanujan, satyen bose), etc are/were from poor backgrounds. I don't see why that should be seen as an insult. if anything, it's a huge point in their favor

Its true, and we should actually celebrate the people who are doing even the meager jobs just to ensure that most of our daily lives can go un interrupted.

[Jaydev_Unadkat]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Yeah and we all have also seen how respectful you were while using the word "prashit", at that time all the respect and honor towards a player goes into the trash bin. You were "venomful", not critical but "venomful"...and now when your uber trundler Mukesh has turned into a failure just like Unadkut, you're humping off the higher moral ground.

 

And what's wrong if someone is working at the chappal store salesman ? Not everyone is born to a privileged family with all the resources & money around them. Wasn't Rinku Singh delivering cylinders and Yashasvi was selling panipuris to meet their ends ? 

The same way you call someone uber eats driver or panwala. What is wrong with being them? Hypocrite much?

Edited February 24 by Jaydev_Unadkat

[singhvivek141]

6 minutes ago, Jaydev_Unadkat said:

The same way you call someone uber eats driver or panwala. What is wrong with being them? Hypocrite much?

 

I never called anyone anything boss, it was you who started this trend and now since it's hitting back at you, you're being a whiny teenager about it.

 

So man up and either accept the way it is, or apologize to everyone so that this trend can be stopped.

 

[Jaydev_Unadkat]

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

I never called anyone anything boss, it was you who started this trend and now since it's hitting back at you, you're being a whiny teenager about it.

 

So man up and either accept the way it is, or apologize to everyone so that this trend can be stopped.

 

I started the trend? Are you new to icf? Been hearing dhoni called Dhobhi as if its an insulting profession since 2012

 

kohli as coolie

and many more

 

stop with this Bz

Edited February 24 by Jaydev_Unadkat

[singhvivek141]

5 minutes ago, Jaydev_Unadkat said:

I started the trend? Are you new to icf? Been hearing dhoni called Dhobhi as if its an insulting profession since 2012

 

kohli as coolie

and many more

 

stop with this Bz

When you know the trend then what's the point of harping the same tune again and again.

 

No one stopped you when you were saying Prashit & other derogatory words..now grow up and stop whining.

 

If something goes out of place, Mods will take care.

[sensible-indian]

11 hours ago, Vijy said:

Philander being great everywhere besides Asia doesn't mean much. it's the analog of a spinner doing well in Asia and not doing well elsewhere. Pitches in Eng were much more swing/seam friendly (broad had many potent spells then), so his excellent record came on fairly helpful tracks. As for Aus, he took 3 wkts per match at an avg of 30 in Aus.

 

Asif would have turned out about the same, I am quite certain. Moreover, given his proven record of cheating, phenomena like ball tampering can't be excluded either.

 

It still means a LOT.

 

Philander helped his team win series in Eng and Aus along with countless home series.

 

The spinners that you deride for being just good in Asia kept us at number 1 ranking and helped us reach 2 WTC finals.

 

Quote

Pitches in Eng were much more swing/seam friendly (broad had many potent spells then), so his excellent record came on fairly helpful tracks.

Agreed.

 

He averages 10 in SL against a very good batting attack on flatties.

 

Averages sub 20 in SA and NZ who had batsmen who were good at facing pace bowlers (which is why most Asian pacers average worse in those countries than in Asia).

 

Quote

As for Aus, he took 3 wkts per match at an avg of 30 in Aus.

Just 4 games. Had a 5fer.

 

Even if he didn't improve in Aus, that might have been the only country he wouldn't have done well.

 

Quote

Asif would have turned out about the same, I am quite certain. Moreover, given his proven record of cheating, phenomena like ball tampering can't be excluded either.

The discussion is what he might have been if he hadn't gone down that path.

 

I used to be in awe of Asif before i even knew what cricinfo stat-filters were.

 

Dude could just get the ball to do crazy things.

 

Chances are he would have done great things. But as with everything in life, there are no guarantees.

Edited February 24 by sensible-indian