P.I.E language homeand

[coffee_rules]

@rish @Muloghonto

Lets move the discussion here

 

 

Edited May 6 by coffee_rules

[rish]

You and mulo can debate on it. i have no interest in following some warped sense of history based on nationalist bias.

[coffee_rules]

[QUOTE]
So what are you trying to prove here? That all these languages were similar but each evolved on its own?that there was no common language ? Or whether they evolved in India and spread out?

[|QUOTE]
 

languages are formed by borrowing words from other languages because of migration and trade. Homeland theory for PIE has been going on for at least since William Jones. But, to say Sanskrit originated from Central Asia has been disproved, only holding on to it are buddhijeeviyon and marxists 

Edited May 4 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

4 minutes ago, rish said:

You and mulo can debate on it. i have no interest in following some warped sense of history based on nationalist bias.

Out of India is not a sanghi pipe dream, was first proposed by early European linguists like Voltaire 

[Muloghonto]

54 minutes ago, rish said:

You and mulo can debate on it. i have no interest in following some warped sense of history based on nationalist bias.

but you have interest in following warped sense of history based on european forgeries and geopolitical bias. 

interesting.

 

[Muloghonto]

53 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

[QUOTE]

So what are you trying to prove here? That all these languages were similar but each evolved on its own?that there was no common language ? Or whether they evolved in India and spread out?

[|QUOTE]
 

languages are formed by borrowing words from other languages because of migration and trade. Homeland theory for PIE has been going on for at least since William Jones. But, to say Sanskrit originated from Central Asia has been disproved, only holding on to it are buddhijeeviyon and marxists 

 

India has little to no steppe cultural influence prior to historic times, with Sakas being the first. This has already been proven in Heggarty et al 2023

Indus valley being indic language group ( as shown by heggarty et al 2023) and Rig veda clearly mentioning its homeland at the core heartland of Indus valley makes it pretty decisive that earliest origin of sanskrit is in India itself. What the origin of pre-sanskrit indo-european languages are, is irrelevant. 

 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

 

India has little to no steppe cultural influence prior to historic times, with Sakas being the first. This has already been proven in Heggarty et al 2023

Indus valley being indic language group ( as shown by heggarty et al 2023) and Rig veda clearly mentioning its homeland at the core heartland of Indus valley makes it pretty decisive that earliest origin of sanskrit is in India itself. What the origin of pre-sanskrit indo-european languages are, is irrelevant. 

 

Agree %100. Languages evolved over time. Early human migration came from Africa. I don’t agree with these genetic scientists based on a few 100 samples. To “scientifically “ say a particular language came from a region is impossible. Tamil in 0 bc and Kannada from same time is in-separable ,

 

 We can debate on horse and other things till they come home , but ashwa is not the only single word to indicate horse in Sanskrit to base all the theories. 

Edited May 5 by coffee_rules

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Agree %100. Languages evolved over time. Early human migration came from Africa. I don’t agree with these genetic scientists based on a few 100 samples. To “scientifically “ say a particular language came from a region is impossible. Tamil in 0 bc and Kannada from same time is in-separable ,

 

 We can debate on horse and other things till they come home , but ashwa is not the only single word to base all your theories. 

 

Whats funny is that the western propagandists try to tie in language with genetics. As if that is a hard and fast rule. For eg, the haplotype most commonly associated with the original turkic people is R1a and C-M217. Yet, the largest turkic speaking group in the world- turkey turks- have the haplotype J2, which is the arab haplotype. 

 

Another example is, the haplotype found amongst the original hungarians ( On Ongur) is Q1a2, found in Szkeley people. Yet, the largest hungarian speaking population have R1a haplotype, followed by I1 - which originates in Scandinavia and is associated with Vikings. 

 

So the whole concept of 'this is the DNA of aryan people' is nothing but propagandist bunk.

 

[Real McCoy]

3 hours ago, rish said:

You and mulo can debate on it. i have no interest in following some warped sense of history based on nationalist bias.

 

If you had no idea of continuing the discussion, maybe you shouldn't have started it in the first place

[rish]

29 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

If you had no idea of continuing the discussion, maybe you shouldn't have started it in the first place

Because there is no point in trying to convince anybody on the internet.I didnt start the discussion .I made a statement.

 

This guy mulo is spouting such nonsense its laughable.

 

You are speaking in English.If in less than 100 years of british rule, you end up speaking the english language, can you say there has been zero influence of the brits on you? And you dint even share british DNA.

 

You call yourself hindu, but the word itself has iranian roots. So doesn't it mean your culture was influenced by them in some manner?

 

Indians have on an average 15 percent of central Asian dna in them.Just as modern turks have 15 percent turkic dna.yet it was enough to leave a lasting influence on the history of both countries.Most people who live in a area will have the dna associated with that area.But that doesnt mean they arent influenced culturally by other populations.The Turcic people influenced modern day turkey just as indo aryans influenced India.

 

How do you account that the rigveda talks about dark skinned dasyus who have buffalo lips who worship phalluses?

If aryans were indigenous to India then why would they mention such physical discrepancies and violent slaughters in the rigveda? The mention of horses soma and their god indra from a place far away point to a homeland far from the saptasindhu.over time these ancient homelands were forgotten.

 

Now coming to horse sacrifices and rituals, it was fairly common in the sinthashta culture as well as other european cultures.you can google them if you like.

 

The cultural differences between the vedic and harappan cultures is too vast to just attribute initial vedic culture as indigenous.Usually cultural upheavals are caused by an introduction of a new culture by a new people.you can see it in history, genetic changes, language, architecture.In the case of vedic civilizations you can see all of the above.

 

This is probably my last post on this .Now you can ridicule me or try thinking about this rationally.

 

 

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

16 minutes ago, rish said:

Because there is no point in trying to convince anybody on the internet.I didnt start the discussion .I made a statement.

 

This guy mulo is spouting such nonsense its laughable.

i am not the one spouting nonsense, you are the one spouting western colonial propaganda. 

16 minutes ago, rish said:

 

You are speaking in English.If in less than 100 years of british rule, you end up speaking the english language, can you say there has been zero influence of the brits on you? And you dint even share british DNA.

precisely

16 minutes ago, rish said:

 

You call yourself hindu, but the word itself has iranian roots. So doesn't it mean your culture was influenced by them in some manner?

No. The word hindu is rooted in Sindhu, with HINDH being the iranian translitration. That doesnt make the root Indian. Indo-Iranian is younger than Indo-Aryan according to Heggarty et al 2023. 

 

16 minutes ago, rish said:

 

Indians have on an average 15 percent of central Asian dna in them.Just as modern turks have 15 percent turkic dna.yet it was enough to leave a lasting influence on the history of both countries.Most people who live in a area will have the dna associated with that area.But that doesnt mean they arent influenced culturally by other populations.The Turcic people influenced modern day turkey just as indo aryans influenced India.

So ? We know of Shaka, Kushan, Pahlava ( Parthian), Hepthalite ( hun), Turkish etc. influx in India. In historical times. This is not earth shattering. 

 

16 minutes ago, rish said:

 

How do you account that the rigveda talks about dark skinned dasyus who have buffalo lips who worship phalluses?

There is no dark skinned dasyu. Dasyu are potrayed as dark natured, with the dasyus having Iranic names. 

 

16 minutes ago, rish said:

If aryans were indigenous to India then why would they mention such physical discrepancies and violent slaughters in the rigveda? The mention of horses soma and their god indra from a place far away point to a homeland far from the saptasindhu.over time these ancient homelands were forgotten.

These are western forgeries and mistranslations. Physical discrepancies are not reported. The rig veda talks of light and dark the same way christianity talks of light and dark- its spiritual allegory, not literal skin colour as translated by your racist 19th & 20th century translators. 

 

16 minutes ago, rish said:

 

Now coming to horse sacrifices and rituals, it was fairly common in the sinthashta culture as well as other european cultures.you can google them if you like.

Dont lie

Shintashta has TWO horse heads found and zero evidence that they were sacrifices and not food consumption. 

There is ZERO horse sacrifice ritual noted outside of India in hisorical times of ANY  Indo-European people. Ever. Don't you find that odd ? That in the last 3000 years of recorded history of the Indo-Europeans, india is the ONLY place we have horse sacrifice ritual and there is ZERO horse sacrifice ritual ever recorded in historical times in the steppes ??

 

 

16 minutes ago, rish said:

 

The cultural differences between the vedic and harappan cultures is too vast to just attribute initial vedic culture as indigenous.

 

Thats nonsense. Harappa has fire altars. it has the pashupati seal. You are parroting euro judgement passed off of zero evidence. Heggarty et al classifies harappan as Indic language speaking. So there is your precious whiteman agreeing with us. 

 

16 minutes ago, rish said:

Usually cultural upheavals are caused by an introduction of a new culture by a new people.you can see it in history, genetic changes, language, architecture.In the case of vedic civilizations you can see all of the above.

No, you cannot. thats the whole point. thats a euro speculative racist nonsense of 19th century of which there is zero evidence. 

 

16 minutes ago, rish said:

 

This is probably my last post on this .Now you can ridicule me or try thinking about this rationally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Passing off euro biases and zero evidence as rational is not rational. 

 

[Muloghonto]

@Vijy

[quote]If I recall correctly, Heggarty et al. 2023 posit an indo-european origin south of caucasus, right? More and more work is casting doubt on the simplistic notion of central asia being the root of everything holy and mighty[/quote]

 

The model proposed by Hegarrty et al 2023 is that PIE is in Armenian highlands, with two waves of migrations.

 

The first migration happens into the pontic steppe around 4000 BCE, where a branch moves into Europe, that is the proto Indo-German-Celtic, with Celtic & Germanic divisions coming later, with a second branch moving later into tarim basin by 2000 BCE. 
 

The second is Indo-Iranic, which comes as Indo-Iranic into Indus Valley by 3000 BCE, where it splits into Indo-Aryan and then Indo-Iranian, with Indo-Iranian migrating back into the iranian plateau.

 

[Real McCoy]

50 minutes ago, rish said:

Because there is no point in trying to convince anybody on the internet.I didnt start the discussion .I made a statement.

 

This guy mulo is spouting such nonsense its laughable.

 

You are speaking in English.If in less than 100 years of british rule, you end up speaking the english language, can you say there has been zero influence of the brits on you? And you dint even share british DNA.

 

You call yourself hindu, but the word itself has iranian roots. So doesn't it mean your culture was influenced by them in some manner?

 

Indians have on an average 15 percent of central Asian dna in them.Just as modern turks have 15 percent turkic dna.yet it was enough to leave a lasting influence on the history of both countries.Most people who live in a area will have the dna associated with that area.But that doesnt mean they arent influenced culturally by other populations.The Turcic people influenced modern day turkey just as indo aryans influenced India.

 

How do you account that the rigveda talks about dark skinned dasyus who have buffalo lips who worship phalluses?

If aryans were indigenous to India then why would they mention such physical discrepancies and violent slaughters in the rigveda? The mention of horses soma and their god indra from a place far away point to a homeland far from the saptasindhu.over time these ancient homelands were forgotten.

 

Now coming to horse sacrifices and rituals, it was fairly common in the sinthashta culture as well as other european cultures.you can google them if you like.

 

The cultural differences between the vedic and harappan cultures is too vast to just attribute initial vedic culture as indigenous.Usually cultural upheavals are caused by an introduction of a new culture by a new people.you can see it in history, genetic changes, language, architecture.In the case of vedic civilizations you can see all of the above.

 

This is probably my last post on this .Now you can ridicule me or try thinking about this rationally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The word "dasyu" means dacoit, plunderer in Sanskrit. Here are actual sources from a learned man, Srila Prabhupada. He describes Nixon and other government men as dasyus. rajanya dasyu means government plundering. There are other dasyus in all walks of society not just kings.

 

Quote

Prabhupāda: Yes, leaders means government men. That is described. They are all thieves and rogues, anywhere. Dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. Dasyu. Dasyu means plunderers, rogues. Unless you become a rogue you cannot go to the government. You cannot... Any honest man cannot stay with these government men. That is not possible at the present age. Any government. Unless... Just like first-class rogue, your Nixon, he became the president. Because he was a first-class rogue, he became the president. So unless you are first-class rogue, you cannot stay within the circle of government men. Rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. And their business will be to eat up the vital force of the people. Bhakṣayiṣyanti prajā sarve rājanya dasyu-dharmabhiḥ. This is the statement. And people will be harassed. On account of their godlessness, they will be harassed by three things: famine, no rain, and taxation. Taxation by the government, and there will be no rain, there will be famine, no food, and they will be so much embarrassed that they will give up their family and go away, gacchanti giri-kananam, will go, enter into the hills and forest, giving up their hearth and home. This is Kali-yuga. And this is due to their godlessness. On account of this, then the democracy, means anyone, brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, anyone who becomes powerful, he will capture the government post. So the śūdras, they are now powerful. Śūdras. Industry means śūdra. So they will capture the governmental power. Just like Communist. 

 

Link: https://prabhupadabooks.com/d.php?qg=5464

 

Prabhupada is involved in a casual chat with devotees. Full text can be found here

https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1975/mar/morning_walk/london/march/11/1975?d=1&f=397832

 

Aryas (not aryans) conquering dasyus is just the triumph of the noble people against those who act like rogues including those you got your information from. Unless you provide evidence for these dasyus with buffalo lips and worshipping phalluses, your statement lacks substance and is liable to be called out.

 

If you are making a statement, there would be people making a counter statement. What is good for you is also good for others, no? If you continue making statements opposing each other, that becomes a debate. I'm not that keen on debating either and I understand your sentiments regarding mulo I have encountered him on more than once and I stopped arguments with him and blocked him. Its a waste of time.

 

What I would like you to do is have an understanding that things are not in order right now and we are bombarded by foreign media. I'm not saying Indian media is great. But we have to realize that the west is not some empirical place where everything they say is true. They have their own biases maybe even intentional.

 

Its better to learn ancient texts in the language its written on and from authentic people. If you can distrust local sources, you should also distrust western sources, even the peer-reviewed western styled research from harvard or oxford that many talk as authoritative.

Edited May 5 by Real McCoy
Added links to sources

[rish]

21 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

i am not the one spouting nonsense, you are the one spouting western colonial propaganda. 

precisely

No. The word hindu is rooted in Sindhu, with HINDH being the iranian translitration. That doesnt make the root Indian. Indo-Iranian is younger than Indo-Aryan according to Heggarty et al 2023. 

 

So ? We know of Shaka, Kushan, Pahlava ( Parthian), Hepthalite ( hun), Turkish etc. influx in India. In historical times. This is not earth shattering. 

 

There is no dark skinned dasyu. Dasyu are potrayed as dark natured, with the dasyus having Iranic names. 

 

These are western forgeries and mistranslations. Physical discrepancies are not reported. The rig veda talks of light and dark the same way christianity talks of light and dark- its spiritual allegory, not literal skin colour as translated by your racist 19th & 20th century translators. 

 

Dont lie

Shintashta has TWO horse heads found and zero evidence that they were sacrifices and not food consumption. 

There is ZERO horse sacrifice ritual noted outside of India in hisorical times of ANY  Indo-European people. Ever. Don't you find that odd ? That in the last 3000 years of recorded history of the Indo-Europeans, india is the ONLY place we have horse sacrifice ritual and there is ZERO horse sacrifice ritual ever recorded in historical times in the steppes ??

 

 

Thats nonsense. Harappa has fire altars. it has the pashupati seal. You are parroting euro judgement passed off of zero evidence. Heggarty et al classifies harappan as Indic language speaking. So there is your precious whiteman agreeing with us. 

 

No, you cannot. thats the whole point. thats a euro speculative racist nonsense of 19th century of which there is zero evidence. 

 

 

Passing off euro biases and zero evidence as rational is not rational. 

 

Dasyus are portrayed as having bull lips, bull jawed and noseless.So its not a logical allegory.You seem to be clueless.

 

Dasyus are also termed as avrata, ayajya, abrahma, anindra meaning without rites, witbout prayers, without indra and of alien speech.

 

There is ample evidence of physical violence in rigveda with descriptions of dark hued races fleeing and deserting posessions.

 

So where did these mysterious people come from suddenly? From IVC? Did some indians suddenly disover how to tame horses and attack the ivc people?

 

There is also one chapter devotes to SOM with roots to Bmac .All in all there is too much genetic and linquistic evidence to ignore that the first vedic civilization had central asian influence.

 

Even your heggerty says that indo aryans emerged out of the caucuses.so what are you even trying to defend?

 

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, rish said:

Dasyus are portrayed as having bull lips, bull jawed and noseless.So its not a logical allegory.You seem to be clueless.

That is a logical allegory, because there are no noseless people and noseless is certainly not how you would describe negroid population that your western masters think are the IVC people. Every single IVC statue found potrays a prominent Indo-Iranic nose. So where is this ivc are dasyus connection coming from ? Just coz a whitey said so ?

10 minutes ago, rish said:

 

Dasyus are also termed as avrata, ayajya, abrahma, anindra meaning without rites, witbout prayers, without indra and of alien speech.

Yes and ? Sounds pretty 'white is light, dark is night, white is pure, dark is impure' type of depictions.

 

10 minutes ago, rish said:

 

There is ample evidence of physical violence in rigveda with descriptions of dark hued races fleeing and deserting posessions.

Quote them then. 
Why are you suddenly ignoring the fact that the Dasyus have Iranic names ? Michael Witzel already conceded 25 years ago that the Dasyu are an Iranic tribe, most likely surviving as the Dahae in the ancient times. This is citable from his own works. So why are you stating old 19th century racial theories that are not held in academia today ?

 

10 minutes ago, rish said:

 

So where did these mysterious people come from suddenly? From IVC? Did some indians suddenly disover how to tame horses and attack the ivc people?

Nobody attacked the ivc people, there is zero archeological evidence of any attack. This has already been conceded by your western masters in academia. 

 

10 minutes ago, rish said:

 

There is also one chapter devotes to SOM with roots to Bmac .All in all there is too much genetic and linquistic evidence to ignore that the first vedic civilization had central asian influence.

There is no Soma in BMAC. There is zero evidence that vedic civilisation has central asian influence. This is why this theory is rejected by Heggarty et al 2023. 

 

10 minutes ago, rish said:

 

Even your heggerty says that indo aryans emerged out of the caucuses.so what are you even trying to defend?

 

No. Heggarty says that Indo-Europeans originate from the caucasus, with Indo-Aryan differentiation happening IN the Indus valley itself. meaning, the indic and iranian branches split in the Indus valley- which is exactly what the dasaraja yajna of rigveda states. 

 

Edited May 5 by Muloghonto

[rish]

Thou slewest noseless Dasyus with thy weapon, and in their home 
o'erthrewest hostile speakers.

 

Wonder how this mulo guy will spin everything to suit his false narrative

[rish]

5 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

[QUOTE]

 

So what are you trying to prove here? That all these languages were similar but each evolved on its own?that there was no common language ? Or whether they evolved in India and spread out?

[|QUOTE]
 

languages are formed by borrowing words from other languages because of migration and trade. Homeland theory for PIE has been going on for at least since William Jones. But, to say Sanskrit originated from Central Asia has been disproved, only holding on to it are buddhijeeviyon and marxists 

If words are borrowed then they are used tatsam.But in PIE languages there are variations of the same word but that are similar sounding with consonents replaced.not all languages can borrow all load words.

[Real McCoy]

15 minutes ago, rish said:

Thou slewest noseless Dasyus with thy weapon, and in their home 
o'erthrewest hostile speakers.

 

Wonder how this mulo guy will spin everything to suit his false narrative

 

Dude you type things without showing evidence then say there are evidences Either back it or get out of this discussion. I thought you didn't want to debate but you're doing the same here. mulo is not at fault here. you are.

[rish]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Aryanism

 

The last line is telling...the indigenist position is a part of a "lunatic fringe" against mainstream migrationist model.

 

You guys can keep pumping each other in this thread now.

 

I am out.

 

[Real McCoy]

3 minutes ago, rish said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Aryanism

 

The last line is telling...the indigenist position is a part of a "lunatic fringe" against mainstream migrationist model.

 

You guys can keep pumping each other in this thread now.

 

I am out.

 

 

Wikipedia as source