Why is Richards Hadlee rated better bowler than Imran Khan?

[deathmonger]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

From your list, If I am picking 4 pace bowlers for my 11:

 

Marshall

Ambrose

Hadlee 

McGrath or Imran (if I want batting depth) or Wasim (if I want a left arm option) 

 

Waqar & Bumrah (at the moment), I would not consider. Will be interesting to see what Waqar’s # were after 35 or so tests. 

Ofc as complete packages Imran and Wasim are great.

 

But purely from a bowling viewpoint they are a tier below to the highest tier.

[deathmonger]

33 minutes ago, Aiden said:

Lol at this thread. Even more comical now that fans are including Bumrah among the greats like 2 W's, Marshall Mcgrath etc. 

 

ANyway carry on whatever floats your boat 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=bowling

 

Away performance

 

Bumrah - 126 wickets @ 21.10

 

Wasim - 255 @ 24.61

Imran - 199 @ 25.76

Waqar - 197 @ 25.96

 

Ofc Bumrah is a great bowler at home too - averaging 16 but considering he has to play IPL and one extra format which the Pakistanis never had to play, it isn't a surprise he is rested at home.

 

I don't need to see Bumrah statpadding against Bangladesh at home to acknowledge he is the greatest Asian pacer of all time.

[zen]

17 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

Ofc as complete packages Imran and Wasim are great.

 

But purely from a bowling viewpoint they are a tier below to the highest tier.

Based on skills? Without being partial (or impartial) to any nationality, Wasim is probably one of the most crafty bowlers that I have seen. 

[Majestic]

11 hours ago, deathmonger said:

Kapil is not on Imran's level.

 

Similarly Wasim, Waqar, Imran are not on the level of the true elite - McGrath, Ambrose, Marshall, Hadlee, Bumrah etc

 

They are basically bowling versions of guys like Inzamam, Miandad, Jayawardene, Mohd Yousuf who have 50 or near 50 batting averages which are heavily skewed due to home conditions/umpiring (in case of Miandad) but are simply not on the level of Tendulkar, Lara, Kallis, Gavaskar, Smith etc.

 

Not saying they are bad but they are not tier 1.

 

 

Ponting averages 45 away from home. He too must be at same level as Inzy, Miandad, Jayawardene lol.

 

Steyn averages 25 away from home too, he must also be at same level as them just like Imran, Wasim, Waqar etc.

 

Shami, by the way, averages 30 with bowl away from home.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=100;qualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling

Edited August 16, 2024 by Majestic

[deathmonger]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Ponting averages 45 away from home. He too must be at same level as Inzy, Miandad, Jayawardene lol.

 

Steyn averages 25 away from home too, he must also be at same level as them just like Imran, Wasim, Waqar etc.

That's why I did not mention Ponting in the post.

 

Steyn's case is different. He was averaging that much when bowlers had way worse averages due to flatter pitches.

 

The Pakistani bowlers had many contemporaries from other countries during their playing careers averaging below 25 (Hadlee, Lillee, Donald, Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Garner, McGrath etc).

[Majestic]

23 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

That's why I did not mention Ponting in the post.

 

Steyn's case is different. He was averaging that much when bowlers had way worse averages due to flatter pitches.

 

The Pakistani bowlers had many contemporaries from other countries during their playing careers averaging below 25 (Hadlee, Lillee, Donald, Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Garner, McGrath etc).

I don't agree. Away averages need to be good, actually very good but that is not the only deciding factor when rating batsman or bowlers. If we go by your logic, among Asian bowlers, Bumrah who is yet to reach 200 test wickets would be #1, Wasim, Imran and Waqar be #2-4 while Kapil and Shami will be well behind with away averages of 30 and 32 respectively.

[deathmonger]

8 hours ago, Majestic said:

I don't agree. Away averages need to be good, actually very good but that is not the only deciding factor when rating batsman or bowlers. If we go by your logic, among Asian bowlers, Bumrah who is yet to reach 200 test wickets would be #1, Wasim, Imran and Waqar be #2-4 while Kapil and Shami will be well behind with away averages of 30 and 32 respectively.

The only thing against Bumrah would be his smaller sample size but by the end of his career, that should be the order.

 

Kapil/Shami are well behind the three Pakistanis, no argument about that.