rangeelaraja Posted July 10, 2025 Posted July 10, 2025 (edited) These flashy shiny toys give some bragging rights, but they cost ridiculous amounts in terms of the fixed cost ( over $ 250 MM ) a piece. On top of that the operational costs add up ( over a 25-30 year shelf life ) and make them ridiculously expensive. What RoI do they really provide as war winner in modern combat ?? At the end of the day advanced multi layered air defense systems will take care of most missiles coming from even the best stealth aircraft. Does it not make sense to invest much more in ramping up our missile inventory both S2S and S2A and further strengthen our air defense capabilities ? I would assume the lifetime operational cost of a Rafale would be well over $500MM. One can unleash 100 devastating Brahmos missiles for this investment in a single aircraft. Is there any comparison in RoI. Imagine launching a saturation attack of a 100 Brahmos on Karachi port....vs. risking a $250 MM Rafale or F35 that would fire 2-3 missiles but risk getting shot down by air defenses ( in theory )...lets say even if the aircraft is untouchable....in terms of the sheer impact for money....there isn't even a comparision ? So why not focus on extending the Brahmos range and ramping up the production of Brahmos, Akash and the likes like crazy ? Also heard a former Lt General Ravi Shankar say that Brahmos at impact is so devastating ...that if a salvo of 5-6 is fired at an aircraft carrier ( costs $2 billion upwards )...it can devastate an aircraft carrier so badly that it will cease to be operational. Edited July 10, 2025 by rangeelaraja
Lone Wolf Posted July 10, 2025 Posted July 10, 2025 (edited) To destroy any airbase completely reckon you would need 9-10 precison guided Brahmos max. Per Missile cost is around 35crore.. And we need Russian ramjet engines still. It is a joint venture at present. India is working towards its own Scramjet engine which will reduce costs to some extent. India needs to actively invest in Indigenous cheaper variants like Lr LACM (Nirbhay) which are subsonic and carry bigger payload than Brahmos at longer ranges. I think this is the direction we are going as well. Greece has been offered similar missiles. So we want it mass produced for production too. We need a 2000-3000 of them as cheap rocket missile type option that even saturates enemy AD's and then we can launch them further in combo with Brahmos. There is no substitute for a capable Airforce though as we have seen in Iran Israel conflict. Iran dearly missed even half a decent airforce. India's threat is mutifold and we would soon need another air craft carrier as well. So no a modern Airforce is must for a country like India. Current Indian Airforce capabilities are perfect for a country like Iran.. but not India. Edited July 10, 2025 by Lone Wolf
rangeelaraja Posted July 10, 2025 Author Posted July 10, 2025 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said: To destroy any airbase completely reckon you would need 9-10 precison guided Brahmos max. Per Missile cost is around 35crore.. And we need Russian ramjet engines still. It is a joint venture at present. India is working towards its own Scramjet engine which will reduce costs to some extent. India needs to actively invest in Indigenous cheaper variants like Lr LACM (Nirbhay) which are subsonic and carry bigger payload than Brahmos at longer ranges. I think this is the direction we are going as well. Greece has been offered similar missiles. So we want it mass produced for production too. We need a 2000-3000 of them as cheap rocket missile type option that even saturates enemy AD's and then we can launch them further in combo with Brahmos. There is no substitute for a capable Airforce though as we have seen in Iran Israel conflict. Iran dearly missed even half a decent airforce. India's threat is mutifold and we would soon need another air craft carrier as well. So no a modern Airforce is must for a country like India. Current Indian Airforce capabilities are perfect for a country like Iran.. but not India. Infact Israel-Iran conflict proves my point and contradicts yours. Iran without any airforce was able to inflict alot of damage to major Israeli cities -- just using its sizable missile inventory. And this is despite Israel having some of the best air defense capabilities in the world and a very small area to defend. Israel on the other hand was able to dominate Iran's airspace using its aircrafts because Iran did not have half a decent air defense system. When a country has good air defense capabilities, this sort of air domination cannot happen. Infact even the mighty US, uses missiles to achieve air domination. They don't get their aircrafts near the adversary's airspace before destroying its AD capabilities using cruise missiles. Both the Gulf wars are an example. Even in the Russia - Ukraine war which has been ongoing for much longer --Russia was able to dominate Ukraine only and only because of missiles. Russia's aircrafts were taken out of the skies by Ukraine's Nato supplied AD systems. Have you seen any news of Russian jets dominating Ukrainian airspace ? Manned aircrafts will soon be obsolete as missile and AD capabilities advance further. And I would rather manufacture more Brahmos than Nirbhay, Nirbhay can be intercepted and lack the destructive kinetic power of Brahmos given the speed differential. The RoI on missiles is much much more. Edited July 10, 2025 by rangeelaraja rkt.india 1
Lone Wolf Posted July 10, 2025 Posted July 10, 2025 (edited) 17 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: Iran without any airforce was able to inflict alot of damage to major Israeli cities -- just using its sizable missile inventory. Iranian analysts are crying that Russian have offered advanced fighter jets to India over the years but they have never done the same with Iran which even supplied them attack drones in Ukraine war. So perception within Iran is surely to acquire more fighter jets moving forward and China is reportedly will supply them their 4-4.5gen aircrafts With Air to air BVR missiles. Iran was forced to go towards ballistic missiles program naturally.. while it is indeed impressive but without a functional airforce it is Always suspect against an advanced air capability of its enemies. Israel lacks strategic Depth... It cannot sustain those ballistic missile hits... Unlike our enemies. India needs both its airforce and missile capabilities. We are more than a 4 trillion dollar economy ffs. Look at our Indian Navy it befits one of a 4 trillion dollar economy. I always marvel looking at our Indian Navy and its power projection ability throughout the Indian Ocean. Boss mode. Give me one more aircraft carrier and we would be dominating Australian and South East Asian waters. On missiles front, no Brahmos is too costly at present. India armed Forces are actively looking forward to mass produce Nirbhay. It is our Tomahawk in the making. We know how much Americans love their Tomahawks. Brahmos should not be used to saturate enemy AD''s especially not its newer costly variants. Just not feasible to sustain. Edited July 10, 2025 by Lone Wolf
rangeelaraja Posted July 10, 2025 Author Posted July 10, 2025 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: Iranian analysts are crying that Russian have offered advanced fighter jets to India over the years but they have never done the same with Iran which even supplied them attack drones in Ukraine war. So perception within Iran is surely to acquire more fighter jets moving forward and China is reportedly will supply them their 4-4.5gen aircrafts With Air to air BVR missiles. Iran was forced to go towards ballistic missiles program naturally.. while it is indeed impressive but without a functional airforce it is Always suspect against an advanced air capability of its enemies. Israel lacks strategic Depth... It cannot sustain those ballistic missile hits... Unlike our enemies. India needs both its airforce and missile capabilities. We are more than a 4 trillion dollar economy ffs. Look at our Indian Navy it befits one of a 4 trillion dollar economy. I always marvel looking at our Indian Navy and its power projection ability throughout the Indian Ocean. Boss mode. Give me one more aircraft carrier and we would be dominating Australian and South East Asian waters. On missiles front, no Brahmos is too costly at present. India armed Forces are actively looking forward to mass produce Nirbhay. It is our Tomahawk in the making. We know how much Americans love their Tomahawks. Brahmos should not be used to saturate enemy AD''s especially not its newer costly variants. Just not feasible to sustain. Lets just do the Maths. Even if we set the entire Pak on fire with 1000 Brahmos fired from land, sea...thats INR 35,000 crore........a " mere " 4 Billion dollars. Thats 5 % of our annual defense budget. The whole point of jets is to deliver missile/ordnance. If one can do that accurately from land based missile batteries through advanced satellite and navigation capabilities with pin point accuracy, then what use case remains for shiny $300MM/ piece toys ? There is no extra medal or bonus point to be won in firing ordnance / missiles via 5 Gen jets vs. land based systems accurately. The results and outcome of the Russia/Ukraine war proves this decisively. Both have caused maximum damage to each other only using missiles and drones. Manned aircrafts from either side have been taken out by their respective AD systems. Edited July 10, 2025 by rangeelaraja
Lone Wolf Posted July 10, 2025 Posted July 10, 2025 (edited) 15 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said: Even if we set the entire Pak on fire with 1000 Brahmos fired from land, sea...thats INR 35,000 crore........a " mere " 4 Billion dollars. Thats 5 % of our annual defense budget. You are actively ignoring the other crucial important fact.. Let's say we go with what you have suggested and completely ignore air force aspect like Iran Meanwhile Pakistan acquires 5th gen jets and adavance BMD capabilities from the West along with their long range air to surface Missiles with obvious BVR capability that they have for air to air battles. It would be lot more easier for them to do SEAD/DEAD ops on us with their 5th gen jets and they would directly threaten our forward bases, command centres and Missile production complexes in North India at least. We cannot abandon our air force capability for no reason. And I am not even counting China yet. Missile development and Airforce must go hand in hand. India should only mass produce Brahmos when we have our own Scramjet propulsion engine and its cost is drastically reduced and it becomes indigenous completely. Edited July 10, 2025 by Lone Wolf
rangeelaraja Posted July 11, 2025 Author Posted July 11, 2025 16 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: You are actively ignoring the other crucial important fact.. Let's say we go with what you have suggested and completely ignore air force aspect like Iran Meanwhile Pakistan acquires 5th gen jets and adavance BMD capabilities from the West along with their long range air to surface Missiles with obvious BVR capability that they have for air to air battles. It would be lot more easier for them to do SEAD/DEAD ops on us with their 5th gen jets and they would directly threaten our forward bases, command centres and Missile production complexes in North India at least. We cannot abandon our air force capability for no reason. And I am not even counting China yet. Missile development and Airforce must go hand in hand. India should only mass produce Brahmos when we have our own Scramjet propulsion engine and its cost is drastically reduced and it becomes indigenous completely. I am not suggesting that it be " abandoned ". The topic heading suggests focussing more on missile ramp up to totally decimate a smaller enemy like Pak that is hugely disadvanataged geographically. We are able to do precision strikes from our ground based systems then there is no point rushing to acquire 5th gen platforms that will be hard to integrate with the rest of our platforms. IAF is the worst performing military arm by a long distance. And this is not a recent phenomenon. By the time "5th" Gen AMCA is ready and in production, the world would have moved on to 6th Gen and we would be again crying about 6th Gen technology. IAF have been poor performers with poor industry partnerships for the longest time. So until we have a good ecosystem to reliably produce 5th Gen+ aircrafts with a ramped up pace - just making yet another fancy purchase for name sake when it cannot even be utilized fully is just having things on paper. It amounts to zero in terms of battlefield results. The entire country was kept in the dark that what made Rafale what it was - the Meteor missiles - was not even integrated in the recent skirmish. This is another feather in the cap of the incompetent IAF leadership. What gives you any hope that IAF would be able to successfully integrate a 5th Gen platform with other platforms ? I am not worried about Pak's so called 5th gen J35 from China. Our IADS dealt with their J-10s very effectively. They could not penetrate our multi-layered IADS. A well-integrated IADS led by the S-400 and with Strong command structure via IACCS and Phalcon/Netra AEW&C support can significantly disrupt and scuttle SEAD/DEAD missions. The S-400’s long engagement range, multi-band radar suite, and integration with other systems like Pantsir and EW units make it extremely difficult to target directly. Once we detect Pak's intent - we can just bury them with a relentless blitzkrieg. Compare that to the Indian Navy. Lowest funds, but they are the most advanced arm among the 3 services. They make almost everything at home from destroyers to Arihant class submarines. We have to leverage their capabilities to launch deadly missile strikes against the enemy. We don't need 5th Gen aircrafts to decimate Pak's war fighting capabilities. A relentless missile saturation attack over 7 days - through navy, ground and Su30s can do it.
Lone Wolf Posted July 11, 2025 Posted July 11, 2025 6 hours ago, rangeelaraja said: The entire country was kept in the dark that what made Rafale what it was - the Meteor missiles - was not even integrated in the recent skirmish. This is another feather in the cap of the incompetent IAF leadership. What gives you any hope that IAF would be able to successfully integrate a 5th Gen platform with other platforms ? You are spot on here and it is indeed frustrating. Rafale without Meteor is an overhyped piece of trash. And French won't let us integrate our own missile systems with them.. nor our radar systems What's more frustrating is Indian armed forces don't trust their own Missiles for offensive capabilities. And air launched non conventional Brahmos missile carries a smaller payload besides being costly. Rudram 1 Air to surface Missiles are ready as they come but yet MoD and babooons are absolutely doing nothing. They have not been inducted despite being ready. Air to surface Rudram 2/3 ki baat hi mat karo.. idk when will they see light of the day after probably Jupiter testing. If we had Rudram 3 operational Delhi se hi Lahore ka HQ9 udaa deta with devastating effect. And now Babus are on a import spree... Cut commission kickbag from Israelis for LoRa missiles. Rudram series is actually supposed to do what air LORA does. MoD and import lobby is compromised by Israelis.. they will buy non stop from them including Radars... Our Aesa Radars are again Delayed and Tejas mk1 will have Israeli Radars. That jet is only naam ka indigenous Engine from USA Radar, EW System & Jamming Pods from Israel Ammunition from Russia Ejection Seats from United Kingdom Designed by ADA, India It's like Ek Airframe bana do aur duniya ke best component laake fit krdo and declare it to be indigenous.
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