Indo-Russia warpact

[Chaos]

@Lone Wolf so should Russia extend this pact like back in 1971? Any attack on india or Russia should be essentially an attack on each others country?. USA n UK sent their best fleet to support brokistan then?. No country would send best naval help brokistan unless they deemed INDIA a threat?. Yea they will count me as a threat now too for talking about this now. 

Edited August 28, 2025 by Chaos

[singhvivek141]

4 minutes ago, Chaos said:

@Lone Wolf so should Russia extend this pact like back in 1971? Any attack on india or Russia should be essentially an attack on each others country?. USA n UK sent their best fleet to support brokistan then?. No country would send best naval help brokistan unless they deemed INDIA a threat?. Yea they will count me as a threat now too for talking about this now. 

Bro, both Russia & India are developing economies.

USSR back in the day was powerful militarily. But their economy was no match for US...hence couldnt sustain the Cold War. Even now, they can gain military shocker to US but in sustained fight US will win (unless things go nuclear).

 

Unless we bring in China to the game, this pact wont help us at this moment. Russia lacks manpower while India falls short of cutting edge technology (Su57 quantity is very low in comparison to F35). China theoretically has both.

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

Bro, both Russia & India are developing economies.

USSR back in the day was powerful militarily. But their economy was no match for US...hence couldnt sustain the Cold War. Even now, they can gain military shocker to US but in sustained fight US will win (unless things go nuclear).

 

Unless we bring in China to the game, this pact wont help us at this moment. Russia lacks manpower while India falls short of cutting edge technology (Su57 quantity is very low in comparison to F35). China theoretically has both.

Hence, RIC is essential for world order. Military, Man Power, Technology will be un matched. Again, IF both china n india willing to do. Time for world order to shift as it was before.

[pkmmamks]

11 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Hence, RIC is essential for world order. Military, Man Power, Technology will be un matched. Again, IF both china n india willing to do. Time for world order to shift as it was before.

the day RIC looks like any sort of reality,  I expect Uncle Sam to break it by supporting India 

[Lone Wolf]

Russia doesn't has cutting edge tech to help us Industrialize.  They are still relying on older Industrial infrastructure of Cold war era.

They don't have a lot to give us.

 

We are already taking what we can from them in current arrangement.

 

China won't help us Industrialize either & there is no reason for them to do that.

 

Let's hope that sooner we get rid of Trump and Republicans and things would fall back in place.

India needs US as much as I hate to say it.  

[deathmonger]

34 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Russia doesn't has cutting edge tech to help us Industrialize.  They are still relying on older Industrial infrastructure of Cold war era.

They don't have a lot to give us.

 

We are already taking what we can from them in current arrangement.

 

China won't help us Industrialize either & there is no reason for them to do that.

 

Let's hope that sooner we get rid of Trump and Republicans and things would fall back in place.

India needs US as much as I hate to say it.  

Normal Republicans are good too (George Bush types)

[singhvivek141]

8 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Russia doesn't has cutting edge tech to help us Industrialize.  They are still relying on older Industrial infrastructure of Cold war era.

They don't have a lot to give us.

 

We are already taking what we can from them in current arrangement.

 

China won't help us Industrialize either & there is no reason for them to do that.

 

Let's hope that sooner we get rid of Trump and Republicans and things would fall back in place.

India needs US as much as I hate to say it.  

Russia do have military tech...that can help us.

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Russia do have military tech...that can help us.

Outdated... IAF rejected Su57 a while back their most high tech equipment.  Su35 their 4.5 gen lacks AESA Radars they got rejected as well when Rafales were picked.

 

We are buying Subs from Germans using their AIP fuel cells and everything that will be available to us beyond 2032 or something.

 

Russian dependency has been reduced drastically so to say.  And their delivery timelines are shady as well. Ultra slow S400 delivery is a living proof that too when we paid them full in advance.

 

A2S missiles are being brought from Israelis as ours are unfortunately still in testing phase.

Only older equipment and ammo &, stuff was procured from Russians in emergency procurement during Op Sindoor & after that.

Edited August 28, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[rangeelaraja]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Outdated... IAF rejected Su57 a while back their most high tech equipment.  Su35 their 4.5 gen lacks AESA Radars they got rejected as well when Rafales were picked.

 

We are buying Subs from Germans using their AIP fuel cells and everything that will be available to us beyond 2032 or something.

 

Russian dependency has been reduced drastically so to say.  And their delivery timelines are shady as well. Ultra slow S400 delivery is a living proof that too when we paid them full in advance.

 

A2S missiles are being brought from Israelis as ours are unfortunately still in testing phase.

Only older equipment and ammo &, stuff was procured from Russians in emergency procurement during Op Sindoor & after that.

 

Their fighter jet technology is outdated because they havent progressed in certain critical technologies. 

 

But their missile technology - both hypersonic cruise and ballistic is still world beating. Also Russia's manufacturing prowess is many times that of the entire NATO.

 

Russia's manufacturing pace is 4X of the entire NATO according to NATO's own secretary Rutte.

 

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/russias-military-industrial-complex-four-times-of-entire-nato-capacity-despite-ukraine-war-taking-a-toll/articleshow/121667362.cms?utm_source=chatgpt.com&from=mdr

 

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-nato-weapons-production-us-germany/33482927.html

( ^ in the drones and missile comparison section its obvious that Russia makes monstrous number of missiles ( upto 3000 ) a year and over 60,000 attack drones.

Many times more than entire NATO put together ) 

 

How do you think Russia has been able to resist and conquer more and more land despite facing the very best of Western weapons with its outdated weapons ? 

 

Why hasn't NATO in its entire might, not fought Russia head on and instead fire on Ukraine's shoulders ?

 

Russia may not have cutting edge tech in alot of areas- but they are are still a monstrous military superpower with an insane capacity to build ammunition that can subdue any adversary.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[singhvivek141]

8 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Outdated... IAF rejected Su57 a while back their most high tech equipment.  Su35 their 4.5 gen lacks AESA Radars they got rejected as well when Rafales were picked.

 

We are buying Subs from Germans using their AIP fuel cells and everything that will be available to us beyond 2032 or something.

 

Russian dependency has been reduced drastically so to say.  And their delivery timelines are shady as well. Ultra slow S400 delivery is a living proof that too when we paid them full in advance.

 

A2S missiles are being brought from Israelis as ours are unfortunately still in testing phase.

Only older equipment and ammo &, stuff was procured from Russians in emergency procurement during Op Sindoor & after that.

Don't think they're outdated. I dont believe the western propaganda channels on youtube which make fun of those. Yeah, their supply chain is a problem due to lower workforce. But their military tech is still a force.

 

Plus, we are still using jets like Sukhoi 30 MKI...where we have received the source code to optimize them. For Su57 as well, Russia has offered us the source code, we can optimize it as per our need. Only caveat, as I mentioned above is their production speed. Otherwise, the thrust vectoring and maneuverability of Su57 is way ahead of F22 or F35. China himself has learned a lot of things by reverse engineering the Russian tech.

 

Russia is planning to setup AL51 manufacturing in India. Thats as competitive engine as ever, our babus must ensure to have a closer collaboration with them so that they can learn for their Kaveri engine program.

 

Maintain the relationship with France, Israel...but keep Russia closer. They're our long term ally. 

[Lone Wolf]

46 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

ahead of F22

No bro F22 is most dangerous 5th gen fighter out there ... There is a reason US has forced lockheed Martin to keep its supply chain running specifically for US only.

It's export is strictly banned.

 

F35 has genuine stealth capabilities as well. It ain't top shelf like F22 but is better than other 5th gen planes out there.

It is offense based unlike Su57.

And Su57's stealth capabilities are not as good as it is.

Biggest problem is its RCS is worse than that of 4.5 gen fighters even Rafales.  India years ago was offered joint development but we pulled out of it as Ruskies were sucking us dry.

Further it cannot carry Brahmos in its current flyaway condition too.

Don't know about future lighter Brahmos Ng variant.

 

Better to spend money on upgrading remaining MKIs as India has rejected Su35 as well.

 

Russia is an ally but India has zero interest in wasting money on unproven stuff out there.

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

8 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

in the drones and missile comparison section its obvious that Russia makes monstrous number of missiles ( upto 3000 ) a year and over 60,000 attack drones.

Many times more than entire NATO put together ) 

 

As they say Quantity has its own quality.  Russians certainly have that in Missiles tanks and drone warfare without a doubt.

 

But they are severely cash stripped and Western Europe can ramp up its production capabilities to a huge extent in wartime as well.

 

But my point was about technological edge and Industrialisation aspect.  China benefitted a lot from USA and its Industrialisation capability is much to the credit of US and West.

 

While I do agree West and US won't make the same mistake again with India but my point is obviously from an Indian Pov.

From that perspective India needs US and West for its faster economic boom.

 

[singhvivek141]

22 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

No bro F22 is most dangerous 5th gen fighter out there ... There is a reason US has forced lockheed Martin to keep its supply chain running specifically for US only.

It's export is strictly banned.

 

F35 has genuine stealth capabilities as well. It ain't top shelf like F22 but is better than other 5th gen planes out there.

It is offense based unlike Su57.

And Su57's stealth capabilities are not as good as it is.

Biggest problem is its RCS is worse than that of 4.5 gen fighters even Rafales.  India years ago was offered joint development but we pulled out of it as Ruskies were sucking us dry.

Further it cannot carry Brahmos in its current flyaway condition too.

Don't know about future lighter Brahmos Ng variant.

 

Better to spend money on upgrading remaining MKIs as India has rejected Su35 as well.

 

Russia is an ally but India has zero interest in wasting money on unproven stuff out there.

 

 

Indeed, F22 has better thrust and Stealth. But it has software limitations and is now an ageing fleet. There are challenges in integrating it with newer tech. Plus it's range is also less despite being twin engine. It's weapon load is also lowest.

F35 being a single engine has it's thrust issues, it has better RCS than Su57 but it's theoretical combat range is less than 50% of Su 57 (2200 something). 

Russian jets, usually are massive and has longer combat range. Su57 has poorer stealth but it has powerful thrust and can integrate with our system coz we have experience with Su-30 as well, so the existing infra can easily be modified to incorporate. Plus it has the higher weapon load capacity than F22 or F35.
Also, I think Su57 can carry Brahmos but it has to be outside of the belly, maybe the Brahmos-NG which is shorter can fit in.

What I'm hinting is since AMCA is still few years away (it's prototype might be operational by early next year). Su57 can give us a tactical advantage in context of the upcoming war with Pakistan. There are talks about few additional Rafale's as well, but IAF need to see the cost to ROI return as well. Rafale's have become damn expensive and without Meteor missiles I don't think they're even capable against Su-30MKI. Su57, theoretically, seems to have a higher potential in that front.

[rangeelaraja]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

As they say Quantity has its own quality.  Russians certainly have that in Missiles tanks and drone warfare without a doubt.

 

But they are severely cash stripped and Western Europe can ramp up its production capabilities to a huge extent in wartime as well.

 

But my point was about technological edge and Industrialisation aspect.  China benefitted a lot from USA and its Industrialisation capability is much to the credit of US and West.

 

While I do agree West and US won't make the same mistake again with India but my point is obviously from an Indian Pov.

From that perspective India needs US and West for its faster economic boom.

 

 

Its not just quantity - qualitatively Russian missiles are world beating. 

 

They have productionized and used Zircon MACH 9 hypersonic which is much faster than Brahmos - NATO has nothing close to this. 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-says-russia-has-fired-five-zircon-missiles-kyiv-this-year-2024-04-01/#:~:text=Ukraine says Russia has fired five Zircon missiles at Kyiv this year,-By Reuters&text=April 1 (Reuters) - Russia,military administration said on Monday.

 

Russia produced 1.5 million drones in 2024 and will produced well over 3 million in 2025. Not sure what industrialization you mean - you can't produce such insane numbers without massive industrial capacity. 20 % of Russian manufacturing jobs support the massive Russian military industrial complex.

 

https://cepa.org/article/russia-assails-ukraines-drone-wall/

 

This is why the entire Europe shits bricks in the name of Russia. 

 

To say that Russia cannot be relied for timely delivery of arms or that their tech sucks - is inaccurate. 

 

They are not the best in everything - but they are damn good in enough things that when you marry that with their military industrial complex scale - they are the most potent force.

 

Thats why India has made the best strategic decision siding with Russia - now when India is in wartime need against Pakistan - Russia's factories will work overnight to supply India with all the ammo ( missiles + drones by the 1000s )   to sustain a long war and win it. 

 

Russian economy has grown much faster than EU between 2022-2025 so far  on an average ,despite being in a major war.

 

Russia is NOT cash stripped and will never be cash stripped.  They are sitting on the largest natural resources reserves by a country mile and will always find buyers.

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[IndianRenegade]

21 hours ago, Chaos said:

@Lone Wolf so should Russia extend this pact like back in 1971? Any attack on india or Russia should be essentially an attack on each others country?. USA n UK sent their best fleet to support brokistan then?. No country would send best naval help brokistan unless they deemed INDIA a threat?. Yea they will count me as a threat now too for talking about this now. 

Wont work for the simple reason Russia is not USSR & no longer the super power it once was.

 

Russia's enemies are bigget trading partners for India, so India will not go to war against them. India's most potent adversary China has more leverage over Russia than India does, Russia isn't going to go to war against China. when neither of them will go to defend the other against their enemies then what is the point of this?

 

Russia didn't even back India outright during op sindhoor,expecting a mutual defense agreement from them is unrealistic.

[rangeelaraja]

17 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

Russia didn't even back India outright during op sindhoor,expecting a mutual defense agreement from them is unrealistic.

 

There is nothing "outright " or white and black  in international diplomacy.

 

Has India backed Russian invasion of Ukraine outright ? 

 

Has India backed Israel outright against Palestine / Gaza ? 

 

Why do we expect outright backing when we never provide it anyone ourselves. It is ridiculous hypocrisy. 

 

Russia has constraints because of China and we have our own constraints.  Russia does NOT trust China - they know it is a marriage of convenience but for now it is what it is. 

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

There are talks about few additional Rafale's as well, but IAF need to see the cost to ROI return as well. Rafale's have become damn expensive and without Meteor missiles I don't think they're even capable against Su-30MKI. Su57, theoretically, seems to have a higher potential in that front.

With Safran set to Collab with us on Engines it is safe to say path is clearer for Dassault to set up a supply chain of Rafales in India as well the export variant.

India is 100% going ahead with more Rafales... It is going to be out premier 4.5 gen platform.

And IAF loves Rafale and our pilots are now well trained in its avionics and stuff.

Meteor is coming.. It has obviously underwent severe testing phase but its quality is undeniable.  I read that early batch of meteor missile is already here (not sure IAF has yet integrated it or not) we won't know that yet.

Only Eurofighter is currently integrated with Meteor and perhaps India is next in line.

 

I think many Experts have suggested to go with proven platform like Rafale over Su57 whose delivery and effectiveness are both questionable right now.

 

Pakistan ain't getting any 5th gen fighter soon too.

 

Focus on Tejas MK2 and fund HAL and DRDO for quicker development of Astra mk 3 and Rudram 3 Missiles for Tejas and MKI platforms.

[IndianRenegade]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

There is nothing "outright " or white and black  in international diplomacy.

 

Has India backed Russian invasion of Ukraine outright ? 

 

Has India backed Israel outright against Palestine / Gaza ? 

 

Why do we expect outright backing when we never provide it anyone ourselves. It is ridiculous hypocrisy. 

 

Russia has constraints because of China and we have our own constraints.  Russia does NOT trust China - they know it is a marriage of convenience but for now it is what it is. 

Not the really. 

 

Go back to 2019, Trump 1.0 in direct contrast to what Trump 2.0 did with Op Sindhoor termed Balatkot strikes as an anti terror operation & stated it supported India's right to self defense. 

 

wrt Russian invasion of Ukraine, obviously India will never support an "invasion" of another country except in self defense. Russia was not attacked, no matter what it says in justifications about NATO, the fact was russia wasn't attacked.

 

Indian MEA has made statements supporting Islrael's right to live in security in response to Oct 7th, blamed hamas for the terrorism. Israeli Ambassador to India, Reuven Azar, publicly thanked the Indian government for “supporting our right to self-defense”.

 

As war prolongs, every country will ask the warring parties to engage in diplomacy, but the initial reaction is a give away of their diplomatic support. US probably would have maintained 2019 policy, but it doesn't like our neutral stance on Russian invasion, everything that has gone wrong between India/US can be traced backed to that stupid maniacal war Putin launched. There was no universe in which Ukraine even as nato memebr would have attacked Russia without it being attacked first.

 

Because of that war & india's nuteral stance Pak whose PM couldn't event get a phone call from POTUS,  got out of FATF, got approved for F16 upgrade, got IMF loans, & has culminated in Phalagam & its aftermath. Putin really *ed up the geopolitical env for us.

 

Edited August 29, 2025 by IndianRenegade

[rangeelaraja]

25 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

Not the really. 

 

Go back to 2019, Trump 1.0 in direct contrast to what Trump 2.0 did with Op Sindhoor termed Balatkot strikes as an anti terror operation & stated it supported India's right to self defense. 

 

wrt Russian invasion of Ukraine, obviously India will never support an "invasion" of another country except in self defense. Russia was not attacked, no matter what it says in justifications about NATO, the fact was russia wasn't attacked.

 

Indian MEA has made statements supporting Islrael's right to live in security in response to Oct 7th, blamed hamas for the terrorism. Israeli Ambassador to India, Reuven Azar, publicly thanked the Indian government for “supporting our right to self-defense”.

 

As war prolongs, every country will ask the warring parties to engage in diplomacy, but the initial reaction is a give away of their diplomatic support. US probably would have maintained 2019 policy, but it doesn't like our neutral stance on Russian invasion, everything that has gone wrong between India/US can be traced backed to that stupid maniacal war Putin launched. There was no universe in which Ukraine even as nato memebr would have attacked Russia without it being attacked first.

 

Because of that war & india's nuteral stance Pak whose PM couldn't event get a phone call from POTUS,  got out of FATF, got approved for F16 upgrade, got IMF loans, & has culminated in Phalagam & its aftermath. Putin really *ed up the geopolitical env for us.

 

 

 

Your thought process on Russia assumes India as the benchmark for how a nation should conduct its national security  - India is a very very low benchmark. 

 

That after repeatedly being assaulted with ter*ism by a much smaller beggar adversary like Pakistan has not vanquished Pakistan into 4-5 smaller regions. 

 

The rest of the world is more military faring. Has more self respect.  Israel and Russia included. 

 

Military faring nations don't wait to be hit and harmed repeatedly before reacting like India.  They attack an imminent threat pre-emptively. The NATO expansion near Russia borders over the years was a growing threat for Russia. Ukraine was the last straw in the hat and they did what any self respecting country would do for its national security.

 

So your argument about "  Russia was not attacked, no matter what it says in justifications about NATO, the fact was russia wasn't attacked "   is a non starter because more than a dozen countries were additionally inducted into NATO since 2004 - Finland in 2023 and Sweden in 2024 being the most recent additions.

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[IndianRenegade]

27 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Your thought process on Russia assumes India as the benchmark for how a nation should conduct its national security  - India is a very very low benchmark. 

 

That after repeatedly being assaulted with ter*ism by a much smaller beggar adversary like Pakistan has not vanquished Pakistan into 4-5 smaller regions. 

 

The rest of the world is more military faring. Has more self respect.  Israel and Russia included. 

 

Military faring nations don't wait to be hit and harmed repeatedly before reacting like India.  They attack an imminent threat pre-emptively. The NATO expansion near Russia borders over the years was a growing threat for Russia. Ukraine was the last straw in the hat and they did what any self respecting country would do for its national security.

 

So your argument about "  Russia was not attacked, no matter what it says in justifications about NATO, the fact was russia wasn't attacked "   is a non starter because more than a dozen countries were additionally inducted into NATO since 2004 - Finland in 2023 and Sweden in 2024 being the most recent additions.

 

 

 

We could go into Russia’s supposed justification latter. But the point I was making is explicit/outright diplomatic support aren’t uncommon as long as you are seen acting in defense or retaliation to an attack/terrorism.

 

But because we refused to isolate Russia is why US & its allies refused to back us explicitly during Op Sindhoor. It’s a simple game of tit-for-tat, US is telling us if you claim strategic autonomy maintaining relationship with Russia then we are also entitled to hang out with Pakistan. We had Pakistan nicely isolated except for the Chinese & some bones that ummah threw. But the war ruined it for us, US needed India to move away from Russia now, not slowly as they had envisioned. Biden was doing it behind the scenes, Trump is being explicit about it. 
 

Russia should consider 1971 has been repaid.

Edited August 29, 2025 by IndianRenegade