Indian Defense Updates

[rangeelaraja]

The bottom line of my argument is - precision missiles - in high volume do everything that one dreams fighter aircrafts to do.  Every ground asset can be destroyed without risking an expensive aircraft and pilot life. 

[singhvivek141]

3 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

There is also risk with fighter aircrafts  because airbases and their hangers that house these aircrafts can also be subject to high volume missile attacks causing wide spread damage - as Pak found out on May 10. 

 

Yeah, but we have our airbases and hangers deep in the country as well, that's where we have strategic depth.
Plus it's easier to fly away a jet from the border airbase than moving the missile launchers, which are slow and in case of saturation missile strikes can get damaged.
Most of the sites, anyway are defended by AD which can intercept and give them those crucial additional seconds or minutes to fly away. Missile Launchers towed by trucks are slower (unless we build deep underground facility where the enemy missiles can't reach)

[singhvivek141]

1 minute ago, rangeelaraja said:

The bottom line of my argument is - precision missiles - in high volume do everything that one dreams fighter aircrafts to do.  Every ground asset can be destroyed without risking an expensive aircraft and pilot life. 

Yeah, numbers do matter.
That's your first strike option. That's where we need plethora of Brahmos, Nirbhay and Pralay missiles in tens of thousands which we can keep on firing.
Jets, helicopters, Tanks all have taken a secondary position. 

Even in Navy, unmanned submarines and missile boats are the first line of attack, followed by frigates, corvettes, destroyers and submarines.
 

[Lone Wolf]

26 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Using Missiles right ? 

 

Ground to ground cruise and ballistic missiles if sufficiently accurate can do the same.

 

 

But those launchers will be taken out by air launched means...  Once air superiority & SEAD  is achieved nothing is safe..  the ballistic missile launchers will be taken out in a short span.

 

Edited April 25 by Lone Wolf

[Lone Wolf]

Del

Edited April 25 by Lone Wolf

[rangeelaraja]

4 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

But those launchers will be taken out by air launched means...  Once air superiority & SEAD  is achieved nothing is safe..  the ballistic missile launchers will be taken out in a short span.

 

 

Not true. 

Aircrafts require :  airbases, runways, logistics hubs. These are fixed, known, targetable and vulnerable to first-strike suppression

Missiles operate on : Mobile launchers , underground silos, dispersed storage. Can operate in shoot-and-scoot mode. Can be hidden, decoyed, and hardened

[G_B_]

2 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

But those launchers will be taken out by air launched means...  Once air superiority & SEAD  is achieved nothing is safe..  the ballistic missile launchers will be taken out in a short span.

 

 

95% of pak pop is within 300km of border.

 

In this scenario jets literally dont matter. Missiles would take out bases before they reach the launchers. 

 

China yes what u said is ok.

 

But as i keep saying if indian army has 1000 pinaka units with 400km range, there is not much a gen 5 or gen 10 craft can do at 300km. It will be a barrage that cannot be countered. For god sake the s400 took out pak awacs at bholari some 300km away.

 

The 4.5 vs 5 theory too has never been tested in combat. Seems like a leak from the us army to boost procurement of f35. 

[G_B_]

16 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Organtua has gone full ret@rd

 

 

 

Umm this seems like planted news from isi. 

 

Trump has never said that quote. Its from a pakistani senetor in islamabad. Former minister of information (Some Hussein guy)

 

This is the original article.

 

https://thehill.com/policy/international/5845852-pakistan-key-us-iran-talks/

 

 

Fluff piece and propaganda.

 

 

 

 

[G_B_]

And this is an example of how isi works. They give fluff pieces to news outlets in west. Their bot army tell white lies on that basis to spread their message.

 

People with lack of critical thinking and basic source checking fall for it.

[Lone Wolf]

9 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

 

95% of pak pop is within 300km of border.

 

In this scenario jets literally dont matter. Missiles would take out bases before they reach the launchers. 

 

China yes what u said is ok.

 

But as i keep saying if indian army has 1000 pinaka units with 400km range, there is not much a gen 5 or gen 10 craft can do at 300km. It will be a barrage that cannot be countered. For god sake the s400 took out pak awacs at bholari some 300km away.

 

The 4.5 vs 5 theory too has never been tested in combat. Seems like a leak from the us army to boost procurement of f35. 

Simulation happens for that reason... And yes a standard 4.5 jet stands no chance against a 5th gen one.  It's like a blindfolded man with a knife up against the guy with an automatic rifle.

 

Pakistani geography is @ss agreed but I doubt our comvential missile capabilities have yet reached that level.

Until I see Nirbhay and some other cruise missiles operational and thousands of Pralays in hundreds of launchers them perhaps I will get the point.

 

As of now we need Air launched stand off weapons against Pak as they were effective in Sindoor.

 

Give me Rudram 3 , SAAW and even Air launched LR LACM version we would be set for devastation.

Also more MKIs with modern sensors for these heavy hitters.

[Lone Wolf]

7 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

And this is an example of how isi works. They give fluff pieces to news outlets in west. Their bot army tell white lies on that basis to spread their message.

 

People with lack of critical thinking and basic source checking fall for it.

Very interesting that major MAGA accounts are also now posting it.  Seems like a coordinated 5th gen assault 

Edited April 25 by Lone Wolf

[rangeelaraja]

9 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

 

 

Umm this seems like planted news from isi. 

 

Trump has never said that quote. Its from a pakistani senetor in islamabad. Former minister of information (Some Hussein guy)

 

This is the original article.

 

https://thehill.com/policy/international/5845852-pakistan-key-us-iran-talks/

 

 

Fluff piece and propaganda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The twiiter handle is ISI run ( yet followed by several verified well known Indian personalities).

 

Mushahid Hussain is a known lying political scum who kisses the boots of their loser army.

 

One the authors/ editors of this article is.  " Sarakshi Rai ".

 

The only answer to this constant lying and propoganda is snatching some territory and pushing the LoC to the west  in the next round and sending Munir to 72 hoors. 

 

[Lone Wolf]

21 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

underground silos, dispersed storage. Can operate in shoot-and-scoot mode. Can be hidden, decoyed, and hardened

With Modern ISR and military grade GPS nothing is full proof.

India had to resort to S400 decoys and as per officials and gallantry awards being given to regiment had  multiple close shaves.

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

2 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

With Modern ISR and military grade GPS nothing is full proof.

India had to resort to S400 decoys and as per officials and gallantry awards being given to regiment had  multiple close shaves.

 

 

 

 

Still way less susceptible than aircrafts ...which need runways, proper hardened shelters ( these cannot be decoyed or hidden ) ...they are fixed and most vulnerable to first strike. 

[G_B_]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

With Modern ISR and military grade GPS nothing is full proof.

India had to resort to S400 decoys and as per officials and gallantry awards being given to regiment had  multiple close shaves.

 

 

But whats the cost of s400.

 

It sits within a layered system.

 

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

5 hours ago, G_B_ said:

But whats the cost of s400.

 

It sits within a layered system.

 

 

 

S400 is v costly nearly $1.25 billion per regiment as per last deal I think. 

 

It will be higher now coz of post pandemic global inflation.

 

[rangeelaraja]

If a phatechar beggar country like Pak could buy /assemble Chinese planes - so could Iran. Iran could even acquire Russian Su30s. 

 

But they planned well - knew exactly how the war would be fought  and built a massive inventory of missiles that are are scattered across 31 autonomously operating  groups- thats why they are still fighting. 

 

Had they invested in expensive planes to " dominate/control  " their own airspace - those planes, their airfields, hangers...etc would have been smoked by Israel and US on day 1 and it would be game over. 

 

This was precisely the reason why Pak surrendered on May 10 during Op Sindoor. 

 

We were able to crater runways of their deepest airbases at will - which means their aircrafts were left grounded and vulnerable to direct attacks ....if Op Sindoor continued for a few more days - their entire airforce could have been grounded and severely damaged further. 

 

 

 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

7 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Simulation happens for that reason... And yes a standard 4.5 jet stands no chance against a 5th gen one.  It's like a blindfolded man with a knife up against the guy with an automatic rifle.

 

Pakistani geography is @ss agreed but I doubt our comvential missile capabilities have yet reached that level.

Until I see Nirbhay and some other cruise missiles operational and thousands of Pralays in hundreds of launchers them perhaps I will get the point.

 

As of now we need Air launched stand off weapons against Pak as they were effective in Sindoor.

 

Give me Rudram 3 , SAAW and even Air launched LR LACM version we would be set for devastation.

Also more MKIs with modern sensors for these heavy hitters.

I think we have amazing missilr capability.

Thats one area where we are literally world class.

 

Only thing js the number, last I heard Army has ordered 250 units and Airforce has 120 units of Pralay. Understandable coz our Defence budget is limited and there is only so much you can order to. Plus our export industry lead by PSUs is just pathetic. Pvt sector has taken over PSUs.

 

Many defence experts have mentioned that India is trying to do all at once, its like having small sets of all toys. While that works well for tech demonstration, for the sales and production, you need to bring in pvt players eventually. PSUs should only focus on R&D, let the commercialization handled by pvt sector.

 

Imagine a workforce where we have 

a. 6-10k units of Brahmos, Nirbhay, Pralay, Astra, Rudram respectively

b. Tens of thousands of small missile like Nag, Helina, Pinaka

c. Massive factories churning out drones, in late tens of thousands

d. Early hundreds of ballistic missiles like K series, Agni while late hundreds of missiles like Shaurya & Dhvani

 

The numbers may sound at hypothecation levels, but we have to prepare for China, not Pakistan, and at the time of war, the attrition rate is multiple times higher than production. Iran had thousands of ballistic missiles, two weeks into the full scale war and the decline was evident.

 

The above scenario will either eliminate or atleast make it redundant the need of 5th/6th gen fighter jet as mentioned by @rangeelaraja

[singhvivek141]

23 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

If a phatechar beggar country like Pak could buy /assemble Chinese planes - so could Iran. Iran could even acquire Russian Su30s. 

 

But they planned well - knew exactly how the war would be fought  and built a massive inventory of missiles that are are scattered across 31 autonomously operating  groups- thats why they are still fighting. 

 

Had they invested in expensive planes to " dominate/control  " their own airspace - those planes, their airfields, hangers...etc would have been smoked by Israel and US on day 1 and it would be game over. 

 

This was precisely the reason why Pak surrendered on May 10 during Op Sindoor. 

 

We were able to crater runways of their deepest airbases at will - which means their aircrafts were left grounded and vulnerable to direct attacks ....if Op Sindoor continued for a few more days - their entire airforce could have been grounded and severely damaged further. 

 

 

PAF is th crown jewel of Pakistan, the moment it gave up it was always game over. Thats the only force they believe can hold fort against India.

Their Navy is tiny and their army is weak, army cant even fight against Afghanistan Army on the ground.

 

Iran's biggest weapon was always IRGC and their drones/missiles. They never invested heavily on Airforce or Navy and relied on older toys to manage. 

 

Biggest thing they have is that they can take up human losses. We cant unfortunately, our media will panic and create confusion.

 

 

[jf1gp_1]

Given all the conflicts around the world, one thing i have learnt is irrespective of military capability, in todays world both sides will pay a price. We had one opportunity to build on our success ie on 4th day which we have missed. I now don't want a 2.0 to start cause no matter how much chest beating we do they will hurt us and i dont think we are ready to pay the price.   

 

 

Edited April 26 by jf1gp_1