Indian Defense Updates

[rangeelaraja]

8 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

I think we have amazing missilr capability.

Thats one area where we are literally world class.

 

Only thing js the number, last I heard Army has ordered 250 units and Airforce has 120 units of Pralay. Understandable coz our Defence budget is limited and there is only so much you can order to. Plus our export industry lead by PSUs is just pathetic. Pvt sector has taken over PSUs.

 

Many defence experts have mentioned that India is trying to do all at once, its like having small sets of all toys. While that works well for tech demonstration, for the sales and production, you need to bring in pvt players eventually. PSUs should only focus on R&D, let the commercialization handled by pvt sector.

 

Imagine a workforce where we have 

a. 6-10k units of Brahmos, Nirbhay, Pralay, Astra, Rudram respectively

b. Tens of thousands of small missile like Nag, Helina, Pinaka

c. Massive factories churning out drones, in late tens of thousands

d. Early hundreds of ballistic missiles like K series, Agni while late hundreds of missiles like Shaurya & Dhvani

 

The numbers may sound at hypothecation levels, but we have to prepare for China, not Pakistan, and at the time of war, the attrition rate is multiple times higher than production. Iran had thousands of ballistic missiles, two weeks into the full scale war and the decline was evident.

 

The above scenario will either eliminate or atleast make it redundant the need of 5th/6th gen fighter jet as mentioned by @rangeelaraja

 

 

If Iran can do it - India is a much bigger country, with much deeper pockets and resources. 

 

I firmly believe wars will be won and lost on missile and missile defense capabilities &  drone and drone defense capabilities. 

 

Can you imagine China unleashing 20K armed drones against us ? ( if Pak could unleash 2K drones, China can 10K drones easily ) ....what are even 20 squadrons of Rafale going to be able to do. Infact they would be scurrying to hide.

 

India countered Pak's Turkish drones brilliantly using legacy L-70 Anti-Aircraft Guns.

 

I believe India is working to induct Mk-II(A) laser system to destroy fixed-wing drones at long range, counter a coordinated swarm attack from drones.

 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

12 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Given all the conflicts around the world, one thing i have learnt is irrespective of military capability, in todays world both sides will pay a price. We had one opportunity to build on our success ie on 4th day which we have missed. I now don't want a 2.0 to start cause no matter how much chest beating we do they will hurt us and i dont think we are ready to pay the price.   

 

Wars are always like that.

 

WW2...Japan, Germany & Italy were devastated. But UK and France weren't spared either. US lost so many lives to Pearl Harbour and we know how much devastation USSR too faced when Hitler attacked them.

 

1971 war, we too lost sizeable amount of Naval and Airforce assets, along with soldiers. But we were able to conflict heavier casualty to the other side.

 

War is all about how much resilience your country has. Russians have high tolerance for losses, US dont and thats why Trunp is scared to bring back the body bags. Plus the Social Media is enough to bring in fear in the common public. So many Indians were more focussed on how many Rafales we lost instead of clear victory we had over adversary. Even in the Galwan, folks were behind our armed forces loss.

 

Wars are not won by diplomacy and soft power alone, these things only work when you have a massive military capability which can scare off the adversary.

 

There is a saying, "the battles you avoid today, tomorrow your son's will have to fight those".

 

[rangeelaraja]

26 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Given all the conflicts around the world, one thing i have learnt is irrespective of military capability, in todays world both sides will pay a price. We had one opportunity to build on our success ie on 4th day which we have missed. I now don't want a 2.0 to start cause no matter how much chest beating we do they will hurt us and i dont think we are ready to pay the price.   

 

 

 

 

You are quite right. No country involved in a kinetic war can remain unscathed. 

 

It is easy for most of us to talk and cheerlead Op Sindoor 2.0 but it is men in uniform who mostly lose their loved ones. Even civilian loss of life happens if the war extends beyond borders.

 

I feel sometimes war is needed for lasting peace. I don't hope for war, but I also hope that if war is thrust upon us by Pak this time - our response is decisive and one that brings a decade of lasting peace atleast.

 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

DRDO AAP is of 25 MT, Zorawar light tank is of 24 MT.

All the more reason why we shouldn't go for C130J as our MTA as it has capacity of only 19-20 MT

Embrayer C390 is the optimum choice as it can carry weight of around 27MT and also is less costly.

Airbus A400M can carry 37 MT but boy its almost 1.8 times and 2.4 times costly than C130J & C390 respectively. 

[rangeelaraja]

22 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Wars are always like that.

 

WW2...Japan, Germany & Italy were devastated. But UK and France weren't spared either. US lost so many lives to Pearl Harbour and we know how much devastation USSR too faced when Hitler attacked them.

 

1971 war, we too lost sizeable amount of Naval and Airforce assets, along with soldiers. But we were able to conflict heavier casualty to the other side.

 

War is all about how much resilience your country has. Russians have high tolerance for losses, US dont and thats why Trunp is scared to bring back the body bags. Plus the Social Media is enough to bring in fear in the common public. So many Indians were more focussed on how many Rafales we lost instead of clear victory we had over adversary. Even in the Galwan, folks were behind our armed forces loss.

 

Wars are not won by diplomacy and soft power alone, these things only work when you have a massive military capability which can scare off the adversary.

 

There is a saying, "the battles you avoid today, tomorrow your son's will have to fight those".

 

 

 

China also has a very low tolerance for losses due to effects of their 1 child policy. Every serviceman of theirs is the only child of their parents. 

[jf1gp_1]

38 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Wars are always like that.

 

WW2...Japan, Germany & Italy were devastated. But UK and France weren't spared either. US lost so many lives to Pearl Harbour and we know how much devastation USSR too faced when Hitler attacked them.

 

1971 war, we too lost sizeable amount of Naval and Airforce assets, along with soldiers. But we were able to conflict heavier casualty to the other side.

 

War is all about how much resilience your country has. Russians have high tolerance for losses, US dont and thats why Trunp is scared to bring back the body bags. Plus the Social Media is enough to bring in fear in the common public. So many Indians were more focussed on how many Rafales we lost instead of clear victory we had over adversary. Even in the Galwan, folks were behind our armed forces loss.

 

Wars are not won by diplomacy and soft power alone, these things only work when you have a massive military capability which can scare off the adversary.

 

There is a saying, "the battles you avoid today, tomorrow your son's will have to fight those".

 

 

29 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

You are quite right. No country involved in a kinetic war can remain unscathed. 

 

It is easy for most of us to talk and cheerlead Op Sindoor 2.0 but it is men in uniform who mostly lose their loved ones. Even civilian loss of life happens if the war extends beyond borders.

 

I feel sometimes war is needed for lasting peace. I don't hope for war, but I also hope that if war is thrust upon us by Pak this time - our response is decisive and one that brings a decade of lasting peace atleast.

 

We as a nation are preparing for a day we see coming but hoping against hope it doesn't. Now if this day comes and we are hit (which we will) and see losses on civilian side then please do not be surprised and wonder how did this happen.  

[rangeelaraja]

23 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

 

 

We as a nation are preparing for a day we see coming but hoping against hope it doesn't. Now if this day comes and we are hit (which we will) and see losses on civilian side then please do not be surprised and wonder how did this happen.  

 

Common dude, you are talking as if we have never been in a war.

 

All of our post independence wars have been contained to the border.

 

Our military is optimizing to achieve quick decisive victories on the border.  We hit Pak far and deep inside their territory - but they could not do the same for us.

 

Should they target and hit any civilian areas  in retaliation for losing ground militarily --- then all bets are off. We will respond with ferocity they have not seen before.

[jf1gp_1]

15 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

Common dude, you are talking as if we have never been in a war.

 

All of our post independence wars have been contained to the border.

 

Our military is optimizing to achieve quick decisive victories on the border.  We hit Pak far and deep inside their territory - but they could not do the same for us.

 

Should they target and hit any civilian areas  in retaliation for losing ground militarily --- then all bets are off. We will respond with ferocity they have not seen before.

 

Besides Isreal not one country came out in open to support us during Sindoor. We also know if there is a 2.0 then US will silently support Pak. China and Turkey will openly support Pak. Europe will stay away, ME will openly support Pak, only relevant country which MIGHT support us is Japan and honestly rest of the world doesnt matter. We wont be fighting Pakistan, we would be in a conflict with Pak and atleast 8-10 other nations.  

[Lone Wolf]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

I think we have amazing missilr capability.

Thats one area where we are literally world class.

 

Only thing js the number, last I heard Army has ordered 250 units and Airforce has 120 units of Pralay. Understandable coz our Defence budget is limited and there is only so much you can order to. Plus our export industry lead by PSUs is just pathetic. Pvt sector has taken over PSUs.

 

Many defence experts have mentioned that India is trying to do all at once, its like having small sets of all toys. While that works well for tech demonstration, for the sales and production, you need to bring in pvt players eventually. PSUs should only focus on R&D, let the commercialization handled by pvt sector.

 

Imagine a workforce where we have 

a. 6-10k units of Brahmos, Nirbhay, Pralay, Astra, Rudram respectively

b. Tens of thousands of small missile like Nag, Helina, Pinaka

c. Massive factories churning out drones, in late tens of thousands

d. Early hundreds of ballistic missiles like K series, Agni while late hundreds of missiles like Shaurya & Dhvani

 

The numbers may sound at hypothecation levels, but we have to prepare for China, not Pakistan, and at the time of war, the attrition rate is multiple times higher than production. Iran had thousands of ballistic missiles, two weeks into the full scale war and the decline was evident.

 

The above scenario will either eliminate or atleast make it redundant the need of 5th/6th gen fighter jet as mentioned by @rangeelaraja

Yes imagine ordering just 250 units and 120 units only.  

The production capacity and scaling must be increased. Solar was indicating that it can ramp up monthly production ability of substantial orders are placed.  Right now it is producing 2/month. 

 

K series and Agni MIRV are specifically under strategic force command would require more nuclear warheads  than the ones active.  That's where the Kalpakkam reactor comes into picture.

Their actual numbers as of now are probably just enough to be a detterant.

 

The scenario you presented was a ideal case scenario which we are far far away from achieving yet so for now we need decent numbers in both missile and fighter Aircrafts.

Tejas program remains a cornerstone for future power projection

 

Role of 4.5 gen jets will continue to be relevant as force multipliers.  US Europe Turkiye Russians and Chinese have all been ramping up the numbers for a reason 

 

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

11 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

 

Besides Isreal not one country came out in open to support us during Sindoor. We also know if there is a 2.0 then US will silently support Pak. China and Turkey will openly support Pak. Europe will stay away, ME will openly support Pak, only relevant country which MIGHT support us is Japan and honestly rest of the world doesnt matter. We wont be fighting Pakistan, we would be in a conflict with Pak and atleast 8-10 other nations.  

Pak since its inception always had far more Allies than us... That's not going to change ever.

The Arab world and West will always remain in Pakistan's camp no matter what you cannot do anything about that.

 

Stopping Chinese from getting actively involved is where our diplomatic clout will be actually tested.

 

[rangeelaraja]

21 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

 

Besides Isreal not one country came out in open to support us during Sindoor. We also know if there is a 2.0 then US will silently support Pak. China and Turkey will openly support Pak. Europe will stay away, ME will openly support Pak, only relevant country which MIGHT support us is Japan and honestly rest of the world doesnt matter. We wont be fighting Pakistan, we would be in a conflict with Pak and atleast 8-10 other nations.  

Did we openly support  Russia in its war against Ukraine ?

 

Have we ever ( even after 2014 ), openly supported Israel in its military actions in the Middle East ? 
 

It is not about what is openly expressed but about what happens behind the scenes. 
 

We try to take a neutral stance in all global conflicts and then moan about why no one openly supports us. We Indians live in such delusions that we don’t see the hypocrisy in 

our own actions. 

 

[rangeelaraja]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

PAF is th crown jewel of Pakistan, the moment it gave up it was always game over. Thats the only force they believe can hold fort against India.

Their Navy is tiny and their army is weak, army cant even fight against Afghanistan Army on the ground.

 

Iran's biggest weapon was always IRGC and their drones/missiles. They never invested heavily on Airforce or Navy and relied on older toys to manage. 

 

Biggest thing they have is that they can take up human losses. We cant unfortunately, our media will panic and create confusion.

 

 

 

They had planning for this for years. They also knew that any investment in airforce will be brutally wiped out in 1-2 days. 
 

Actually not just Iran - even North Korea is almost entirely focused on missiles. 
 

That, the results of the recent two wars and the opinion of the greatest technologist of our time  - Elon Musk - and I rest my case as to why it is a fools errand to over allocate in expensive fighter aircrafts.
 

 

 

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

what do these chomus smoke ??!!

 

 

 

[G_B_]

Re the fake news.

 

@Lone Wolf you are very informed on defence matters but you cannot trust Twitter/X as a source. People are paid to be outraged. I think the Brahmos manufacturing is going ahead no issue. Obviously, project Vishnu is top secret and we dont know what will happen in the hypersonic space. Maybe they had breakthroughs which means Brahmos-NG is not such a priority. Its clear that there are issues with likes of Nirbhay. 

 

Re the 4.5 vs5

 

I think India will face the likes of J20 (with the chinese engine) which has a significantly higher RCS than the F35. 0.01 is the lowest figure quoted for the J20 and many commentators feel its likely to be much higher with typical range of 0.1 to 0.01 closer to 0.1. That ratio of 4.5 vs 5  is simply not going to be maintained at the RCS ranges of 01 to 0.01. USA seems to be ordering me f15ex which also suggests that they have not given up on the 4.5 platforms.

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

5 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

Re the fake news.

 

@Lone Wolf you are very informed on defence matters but you cannot trust Twitter/X as a source. People are paid to be outraged. I think the Brahmos manufacturing is going ahead no issue. Obviously, project Vishnu is top secret and we dont know what will happen in the hypersonic space. Maybe they had breakthroughs which means Brahmos-NG is not such a priority. Its clear that there are issues with likes of Nirbhay. 

 

Re the 4.5 vs5

 

I think India will face the likes of J20 (with the chinese engine) which has a significantly higher RCS than the F35. 0.01 is the lowest figure quoted for the J20 and many commentators feel its likely to be much higher with typical range of 0.1 to 0.01 closer to 0.1. That ratio of 4.5 vs 5  is simply not going to be maintained at the RCS ranges of 01 to 0.01. USA seems to be ordering me f15ex which also suggests that they have not given up on the 4.5 platforms.

 

 

First of all it was NBT part of ToI is the first to report this...  And they cited reliable sources not random twitter you should check out

 

Also there's not enough data about 5th gens to compare them properly. The only one with enough data to get a decent-ish understanding of how good it is is the F-22 because of how old it is, and even then you've got nothing to compare it to.

F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-20, J-35, ALL of them are simply too classified for us draw a conclusion on.

 

I said it before no one will give up on 4.5 gen platforms.  5th gen mainataince is always a b*tch factor in the end 

 

[G_B_]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

First of all it was NBT part of ToI is the first to report this...  And they cited reliable sources not random twitter you should check out

 

Also there's not enough data about 5th gens to compare them properly. The only one with enough data to get a decent-ish understanding of how good it is is the F-22 because of how old it is, and even then you've got nothing to compare it to.

F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-20, J-35, ALL of them are simply too classified for us draw a conclusion on.

 

I said it before no one will give up on 4.5 gen platforms.  5th gen mainataince is always a b*tch factor in the end 

 

 

See if people believed that ratio then keeping 4.5 would not be cost effective.

 

Nbt has claimed "reliable sources" I read the core article. Has not been replicated across the Toi group.

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, G_B_ said:

 

See if people believed that ratio then keeping 4.5 would not be cost effective.

 

Nbt has claimed "reliable sources" I read the core article. Has not been replicated across the Toi group.

NBT is associated with ToI... Frankly speaking that's how most of the military reports come out these days.

LFRJ engine is totally Russian dependent & the war has drained Russian MIC to its limits now.  

 

And we know for a fact that NG variant is still a while away even with the delays.

 

There are American training exercises when the F22 wipes like 10 F15s without being detected and Chinese training exercises where it took multiple J-10C + EW aircraft + AEW&C aircraft to shoot down a single J-20.

 

But the F22 cost about a 100 times and you need a whole apparatus that only the US can have. 

In any case 95% of the F22 missions can also be done with an  Advanced block variants of an F16.  But those 5% are the catch.

 

US and China Maintaining a vast 4/4.5gen fleet is also results of years of research on this.

Edited April 26 by Lone Wolf

[singhvivek141]

9 hours ago, jf1gp_1 said:

 

Besides Isreal not one country came out in open to support us during Sindoor. We also know if there is a 2.0 then US will silently support Pak. China and Turkey will openly support Pak. Europe will stay away, ME will openly support Pak, only relevant country which MIGHT support us is Japan and honestly rest of the world doesnt matter. We wont be fighting Pakistan, we would be in a conflict with Pak and atleast 8-10 other nations.  

US will support Pakistan coz it sucks to them, it can easily be bought as it's directly controlled by a dictator hiding behind democracy.
China will support Pakistan coz it doesn't want another power center. Turkiye will do it due to Islamic reasons and also it wants to become the king of Islamic world. Pakistan is a nuclear nation and can easily be bought.

Russia, not overtly but covertly will support India. Coz, Russia don't want a world where China and US are the big dogs, as they both can easily bully it. I think in Europe even France will support us, even if not overtly but covertly (France supported us in 1998 sanctions as well).5362.
Israel will support us coz it wants to survive. The day US declines, Israel has a very severe risk of getting mauled by the West Asian nations. After Iran, Turkiye is the next threat and it doesn't want Pakistan-Turkiye alliance at it's doorstep.

Everything happens for a reason in geopolitics, no one likes others to rise. Frankly, I think India played it's cards too early, Jaishankar should have kept quiet for few more years. As now we're in Top 5 military power, there will be obvious efforts to keep our economy in check. That's where by 2035-2040 our target to reach 10 trillion economy is critical. Once we're there, we would be unstoppable.

Edited April 26 by singhvivek141

[singhvivek141]

On the Naval front, one white pill
VL-SRSM trials are quite successful. It's gonna be a replacement for legacy israel Barak-1 AD which had a range of 9-12 km. VL-SRSM has a range of 40-50 km and altitude of 15km with launch weight of 158kg as supposed to Barak-1 which had only of 100 kg.
It has active radar seeker, like Nag missile it's about fire and forget and it's seeker will find the target.

 

 

[singhvivek141]

6 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

First of all it was NBT part of ToI is the first to report this...  And they cited reliable sources not random twitter you should check out

 

Also there's not enough data about 5th gens to compare them properly. The only one with enough data to get a decent-ish understanding of how good it is is the F-22 because of how old it is, and even then you've got nothing to compare it to.

F-22, F-35, Su-57, J-20, J-35, ALL of them are simply too classified for us draw a conclusion on.

 

I said it before no one will give up on 4.5 gen platforms.  5th gen mainataince is always a b*tch factor in the end 

 

 

5 hours ago, G_B_ said:

 

See if people believed that ratio then keeping 4.5 would not be cost effective.

 

Nbt has claimed "reliable sources" I read the core article. Has not been replicated across the Toi group.

USAF has ordered several F-15's. Seems they understood in the war of attrition, losing one F35s to 100s of Shahed drones isn't the right balance.
4th and 4.5 gen aircrafts are still useful when the enemy AD is suppressed, then it all comes to who sees whom first and dogfights.
First line of attack is still the drones, UCAV to confuse and cripple the AD, followed by stealth jets to swoop the remaining capabilities.

From Indian POV, if Su57 don't materializes and AMCA faces delay, then push Ghatak in massive numbers and create multiple squadrons. That will give us capability to suppress enemy AD first without causing loss of lives.
Ghatak can easily carry Rudram 1 and Rudram 2 missiles, while Astra 1 for A2A combat. If we can somehow fit Brahmos NG or Nirbhay in it's mk2 variant, it will be a truly versatile combatant.
 

Edited April 26 by singhvivek141