Indian Defense Updates

[Lone Wolf]

14 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Pooks are like a demanding child man.

For then, whatever India has...they would like to have that as well.

Irrespective of the cost that they have to pay.

 

There were some reports that Pooks are evern ready to "sell" their cities/ports completely to Chinks or Muricans in exchange for the same..imagine their desperation.

 

They have done it in the past, I think they gave some of the POK portion to China...wont be surprised if they do something similar this time as well.

Aligns with their mentality, decades ago Bhutto said they would eat grass but would make an atom bomb like India did.

 

All that Saudi aid and World Bank loans are going in one direction only 

[Lone Wolf]

@singhvivek141 rarest of rare images, one image shows K4 loading 

 

[Lone Wolf]

We need INS varsha operational soon to hide these beasts... I suppose at least one should be on patrol all the time

 

[singhvivek141]

2 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

We need INS varsha operational soon to hide these beasts... I suppose at least one should be on patrol all the time

 

Yeah, 3 subs means one is always on patrol duty. 4th sub gives additional flexibility with 2 subs in the patrol and can be sent back to the base quickly instead of waiting till the stock lasts.
It's an strategic asset directly under PMO and not part of Naval command, hence every priority will be given for it's optimization and maintenace.

[singhvivek141]

6 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

@singhvivek141 rarest of rare images, one image shows K4 loading 

 

I read some reports which mentioned that when S5 is ready, the Arihant class might go into retrofitting as an SSN.
Won't be a bad idea, considering current Arihant and Arighaat needs more firepower in terms of missile capability. But it's execution is remains to be seen.

[Lone Wolf]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

Yeah, 3 subs means one is always on patrol duty. 4th sub gives additional flexibility with 2 subs in the patrol and can be sent back to the base quickly instead of waiting till the stock lasts.
It's an strategic asset directly under PMO and not part of Naval command, hence every priority will be given for it's optimization and maintenace.

Yeah just seen S4 INS arisudan is docked perhaps preparing for sea trials 

 

INS Arihant S1 seems to be on patrol 

[Lone Wolf]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

I read some reports which mentioned that when S5 is ready, the Arihant class might go into retrofitting as an SSN.
Won't be a bad idea, considering current Arihant and Arighaat needs more firepower in terms of missile capability. But it's execution is remains to be seen.

Won't be easy to convert them into SSNs ..I was reading some experts were saying they should be converted into SSGNs rather like the Ohio class and should be loaded with cruise missiles like Brahmos ER, LRLACM

[rangeelaraja]

The 2 good generals - raising serious questions about how prepared India is for the next round.  They are raising serious concerns about :

 

1) Quantity of Indias drone and missile arsenal to launch a blitzkrieg and sustain it for weaks

 

2) How prepared is India to defend against deep strikes in major metros. 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

The 2 good generals - raising serious questions about how prepared India is for the next round.  They are raising serious concerns about :

 

1) Quantity of Indias drone and missile arsenal to launch a blitzkrieg and sustain it for weaks

 

2) How prepared is India to defend against deep strikes in major metros. 

 

 

Lt Gen Raj Shukla is a big advocate for Drone warfare.
I think in the ANI podcast, he even told that Indian Army needs 1 lakh drone something and instead of Airforce, Drones are gonna be first line of attack.
Ofcourse this didn't go well with IAF veterans like Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor...without naming they criticized that Army isn't aware of the nuances for Air attack. That's where the gap lies IMO.

Army is relying on drones like Shahed and KAL...while IAF is betting on CATS Warrior and Ghatak UCAV. 

Same goes in Navy as well, initially plan was to run TEDBF and AMCA run in parallel, but now they're delinked coz TEDBF requirements weren't suited with AMCA.

Edited May 19 by singhvivek141

[rangeelaraja]

3 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Lt Gen Raj Shukla is a big advocate for Drone warfare.
I think in the ANI podcast, he even told that Indian Army needs 1 lakh drone something and instead of Airforce, Drones are gonna be first line of attack.
Ofcourse this didn't go well with IAF veterans like Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor...without naming they criticized that Army isn't aware of the nuances for Air attack. That's where the gap lies IMO.

Army is relying on drones like Shahed and KAL...while IAF is betting on CATS Warrior and Ghatak UCAV. 

Same goes in Navy as well, initially plan was to run TEDBF and AMCA run in parallel, but now they're delinked coz TEDBF requirements weren't suited with AMCA.

 

 

Even a commoner like me has been saying for the longest time --while we are obsessed and focussed on  Rafales and AMCA as we must be to an extent....at the end of the day...fighter aircrafts are meant deliver missiles + controlling the skys.  Both Ukraine and Iran - with no Airforce have sustained wars against 10X bigger enemies just with missile and drone warfare.   India can make use missiles + drones plus an extremely dense and multi layered air defence. PM has spoken about Sudarshan Chakra. Not sure how much work has be done to implement it. Maybe it is confidential to keep the enemy guessing.

 

What I really wish we have is an attack inventory that can completely saturate all of enemy defences in 2-3 days.  India never ever discloses numbers to keep the enemies guessing, but I am hoping we are covered.

[singhvivek141]

28 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Even a commoner like me has been saying for the longest time --while we are obsessed and focussed on  Rafales and AMCA as we must be to an extent....at the end of the day...fighter aircrafts are meant deliver missiles + controlling the skys.  Both Ukraine and Iran - with no Airforce have sustained wars against 10X bigger enemies just with missile and drone warfare.   India can make use missiles + drones plus an extremely dense and multi layered air defence. PM has spoken about Sudarshan Chakra. Not sure how much work has be done to implement it. Maybe it is confidential to keep the enemy guessing.

 

What I really wish we have is an attack inventory that can completely saturate all of enemy defences in 2-3 days.  India never ever discloses numbers to keep the enemies guessing, but I am hoping we are covered.

 

There are many experts who say that the era of Airforce fighting is over and drones are the next big thing...but I choose the other side.

 

The way I look at the conflict of Iran & Ukraine...both are indeed using the drones to hit back US & Russian air force...but thats also a truth that both nations and their citizens have faced heavy pounding and catastrophic loss of lives.

 

Country like India cant afford that. Airforce is the deterrent which will push back the enemy...imagine in Op Sindoor itself had both Pakistan and India fighting with each other based on drones. Using Airforce helped us to push the enemy back conclusively.

 

Drones are no doubt lethal and they increase the cost of attrition, but you cant dent the entire enemy infra simply by drones...you need long range missiles who can do that. Theoretically, land ballistic and cruise missiles can do that as well..but their launcher are prone to identification by satellite imagery. Airforce can hit and run back at quicker pace. They aren't constrained by land borders or sea. As long as they have fuel, they can travel anywhere.

 

Also, Dumb drones are easier to build but they are less efficient. Intelligent drones need massive datalink capability..but they are prone to jamming.

 

My belief w.r.t Pakistan is

 

1. Use the Drones as the first means of strike to damage their weapons and air defence 

2. Use Airforce as second strike to cause mayhem.

3. Enter Army with Tanks and their own drone systems.

4. Use Navy to Cripple their logistical supply...bend them to knees.

[rangeelaraja]

42 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

There are many experts who say that the era of Airforce fighting is over and drones are the next big thing...but I choose the other side.

 

The way I look at the conflict of Iran & Ukraine...both are indeed using the drones to hit back US & Russian air force...but thats also a truth that both nations and their citizens have faced heavy pounding and catastrophic loss of lives.

 

Country like India cant afford that. Airforce is the deterrent which will push back the enemy...imagine in Op Sindoor itself had both Pakistan and India fighting with each other based on drones. Using Airforce helped us to push the enemy back conclusively.

 

Drones are no doubt lethal and they increase the cost of attrition, but you cant dent the entire enemy infra simply by drones...you need long range missiles who can do that. Theoretically, land ballistic and cruise missiles can do that as well..but their launcher are prone to identification by satellite imagery. Airforce can hit and run back at quicker pace. They aren't constrained by land borders or sea. As long as they have fuel, they can travel anywhere.

 

Also, Dumb drones are easier to build but they are less efficient. Intelligent drones need massive datalink capability..but they are prone to jamming.

 

My belief w.r.t Pakistan is

 

1. Use the Drones as the first means of strike to damage their weapons and air defence 

2. Use Airforce as second strike to cause mayhem.

3. Enter Army with Tanks and their own drone systems.

4. Use Navy to Cripple their logistical supply...bend them to knees.

 

 

What Ukraine has done with drones is remarkable. We should be able to do WAYY more.

 

Can you imagine 100,000 attack drones - AI enabled with network centric capabilities to attack 100s of vital installations.  It is an undefendable nightmare for the enemy.

 

Estimating the price per drone to be in the 25000 / piece, ( going by Ukraine and Iran's numbers ) -- so the total cost is roughly $2.5B.

 

In $2.5B, one can barely get 1 squadron of fully armed Rafales, assuming a price of $150M a plane ( which is less than what we are paying with custom modifications and armaments ) ....that works out to be 17 planes or so.

 

100,000 AI enabled attack drones vs. 17 Rafales. I see it as a non-brainer. 

 

Not to say that Rafale's don't have their value or fighter planes are not needed. All I am saying that since defence budget is finite and a constraint - we should optimize for maximum bang for the bucks we are expending. 

[Lone Wolf]

3 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

with no Airforce have sustained wars against 10X bigger enemies just with missile and drone warfare.   India can make use missiles + drones plus an extremely dense and multi layered air defence.

We would have done that if our missile and drone  programs were matured enough.  India as of now produces only 2 Pralay missiles/month as per solar industries.  So we have manpower as well as  skilled labour shortage and of course limited R&D budget.

 

We focused on becoming next America and China rather than a failed state like Iran.  Can't fault the decades old vision but with some blunders made in last decade or so by IAF/MoD we are in this position.

Kaveri should have always been no 1 priority.

 

Edited May 19 by Lone Wolf

[rangeelaraja]

46 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

We would have done that if our missile and drone  programs were matured enough.  India as of now produces only 2 Pralay missiles/month as per solar industries.  So we have manpower as well as  skilled labour shortage and of course limited R&D budget.

 

We focused on becoming next America and China rather than a failed state like Iran.  Can't fault the decades old vision but with some blunders made in last decade or so by IAF/MoD we are in this position.

Kaveri should have always been no 1 priority.

 

 

Its about what is a better fighting arsenal makeup/composition  to accomplish our strategic objectives than assuming that having a certain quantity and quality of 4.5+ gen is guarantor of competitive capabilities. 

 

Ukraine had plenty of frontline Western platforms including fighter aircrafts  But their Western platform airforce got deicmated, what helped them cause max damage to Russia are drones ( developed indigenously ).

 

Being a failed state like Iran or Pak has nothing to do with what it takes to win a war or accomplish strategic objectives through war.

 

An utterly failed and bankrupt state like Pak has kept India at bay, despite having a fraction of the defence budget. A failed state like Iran without a navy now, is able to prevent the world's foremost navies from entering - due to their asymetric methods -- and thats the whole point. Missiles provide asymetric advantages.

 

Not just Iran and Ukraine- North Korea too uses this for both defensive and offensive posturing.  This is why China became the first country in the world to raise a rocket force ( a dedicated missile wing ) before it started producing decent planes. 

 

If much smaller countries like N.Korea and Iran can do it at scale, it is pretty shameful if we have manpower issues.

 

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

51 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Its about what is a better fighting arsenal makeup/composition  to accomplish our strategic objectives than assuming that having a certain quantity and quality of 4.5+ gen is guarantor of competitive capabilities. 

 

Ukraine had plenty of frontline Western platforms including fighter aircrafts  But their Western platform airforce got deicmated, what helped them cause max damage to Russia are drones ( developed indigenously ).

 

Being a failed state like Iran or Pak has nothing to do with what it takes to win a war or accomplish strategic objectives through war.

 

An utterly failed and bankrupt state like Pak has kept India at bay, despite having a fraction of the defence budget. A failed state like Iran without a navy now, is able to prevent the world's foremost navies from entering - due to their asymetric methods -- and thats the whole point. Missiles provide asymetric advantages.

 

Not just Iran and Ukraine- North Korea too uses this for both defensive and offensive posturing.  This is why China became the first country in the world to raise a rocket force ( a dedicated missile wing ) before it started producing decent planes. 

 

If much smaller countries like N.Korea and Iran can do it at scale, it is pretty shameful if we have manpower issues.

 

 

 

It is what it is...DRDO salary package is enough to figure out what kinda talent pool is actually we have on board same goes for ISRO.. whose ex chairman revealed that bright students simply don't want to join when they see our package during placement drives and nothing hurts them more.

 

These are all underlying issues we have to deal with 

We have talked about defence budget already in the thread that it is inflated already coz of pensions and salaries.  We struggle to sign decades old orders and costs skyrocket coz of unending negotiations.

 

India for last 20 years has barely given any emphasis on military modernization or the roadmap on how we go about. For years we believed that achiveing nuclear detterance means we have made sure that there is no conflict on the horizon and slept peacefully.

 

We have woken up pretty late now it will time to catch up with all this.

Indigenous IDDM is in pretty nascent stage and mostly based on screwdrivergiri.

 

As of now Focus is on importing stuff and try to patch up the deficiencies we have. Overwhelming Military superiority will be achieved in next decade when our indigenous platforms start to mature and being mass produced.

Edited May 19 by Lone Wolf

[singhvivek141]

58 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Being a failed state like Iran or Pak has nothing to do with what it takes to win a war or accomplish strategic objectives through war.

 

An utterly failed and bankrupt state like Pak has kept India at bay, despite having a fraction of the defence budget. A failed state like Iran without a navy now, is able to prevent the world's foremost navies from entering - due to their asymetric methods -- and thats the whole point. Missiles provide asymetric advantages.

 

Pakistan spends heavily on their defence through non conventional means. It's a country governed by Military.Focus isn't on education or healthcare or transportation or infra. They have only one thought, to strengthen military control.
Pakistan have also received overwhelming support of USA...they got nukes from them free of cost. They choose the side which emerged victorious in Cold War. China too received so much help from US. 

We choose USSR, which was always a smaller economy than US< and hence has to pump in more funds which lead to their economy collapse. We were actually sleeping throughout the cold war and when USSR broke down, then we realized we have to put effort to stay relevant. Then post nuclear tests we were sanctioned heavily and so many techs were stripped away from us. Its only when Russia got Putin in power and gained back it's strength, they started helping us again.

Missile tech is important, no doubt. We need to have massive stockpiles of missiles. Buying 50 here and 70 there isn't gonna cut it.
At any moment, we should be able to launch 100 missiles on adversaries in 10 mins from all three wings. 

[IndianRenegade]

https://x.com/ANI/status/2056955005723402381/video/1?s=46
 

[singhvivek141]

Firing of ULPGM from an unmanned drone system.
@rangeelaraja I guess that what you're looking for :)
This V3 variant has a range of 10 kms and payload of around 12kg...can go deep into enemy territory undetected and launch these missiles which can be used to take of critical assets like enemy radars and helicopters. The test was done for both A2A and A2G missile systems.
Good thing is they come with flares as well, so can use those flares to divert any incoming weapons.

https://defence.in/threads/drdo-successfully-concludes-development-trials-of-uav-launched-precision-guided-missile-v3-for-anti-tank-and-anti-drone-ops.17803/

 

 

[singhvivek141]

18 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

https://x.com/ANI/status/2056955005723402381/video/1?s=46
 

Suryastra has got some bad publicity as it's an Israeli weapon with an Indian avatar.
But whatever is the nation of origin, key thing is if it suits our needs and we can use it and produce it in the required numbers.

[rangeelaraja]

2 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Firing of ULPGM from an unmanned drone system.
@rangeelaraja I guess that what you're looking for :)
This V3 variant has a range of 10 kms and payload of around 12kg...can go deep into enemy territory undetected and launch these missiles which can be used to take of critical assets like enemy radars and helicopters. The test was done for both A2A and A2G missile systems.
Good thing is they come with flares as well, so can use those flares to divert any incoming weapons.

https://defence.in/threads/drdo-successfully-concludes-development-trials-of-uav-launched-precision-guided-missile-v3-for-anti-tank-and-anti-drone-ops.17803/

 

 

 

 

Yes, exactly. And have them by the 10,000s. 

 

Have you seen this footage of the Ukraine drone attack ? 

 

India needs its own military industrial complex. Its not only a massive employment generator, it also ensures that India has so much offensive power that both Pak and China would think a million times before provoking India.