Lone Wolf Posted June 24 Posted June 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said: Again, comes to the original point. Why did they planned for a single engine jet when Kaveri wasnt matured ? Twin Kaveri engine would have given some thrust to Tejas mk1a and Tejas mk2...atleast of the level of M88. It wont be supersonic but wont be too laggard. Russian engines are usually massive, and wont fit in Tejas. We are stuck in a hole and dont think DRDO searching for another vendor will help here. They can't afford to kill the program so they have to bite the bullet on this and go ahead with overpriced GE414 at interim basis at least and buy off the shelf. We don't have 5-6 years to waste on design change and certification. Edited June 24 by Lone Wolf IndianRenegade 1
singhvivek141 Posted June 25 Posted June 25 9 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: They can't afford to kill the program so they have to bite the bullet on this and go ahead with overpriced GE414 at interim basis at least and buy off the shelf. We don't have 5-6 years to waste on design change and certification. New reports have come up that these prices includes the ToT and MRO setup in India. India anyway require around 550 engines. 200 for Tejas mk2 & around 200 for AMCA mk1 and close to 100 for TEDBF plus 50 for spares/prototype etc Lone Wolf 1
Lone Wolf Posted June 25 Posted June 25 4 hours ago, singhvivek141 said: New reports have come up that these prices includes the ToT and MRO setup in India. India anyway require around 550 engines. 200 for Tejas mk2 & around 200 for AMCA mk1 and close to 100 for TEDBF plus 50 for spares/prototype etc Actually they are saying that GE 414 is expensive for AMCA Mk1 but not for Tejas Mk2.. Hard to make sense of it but this is the official word
G_B_ Posted June 25 Posted June 25 https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/defence/news/iafs-40-sukhoi-fighters-now-armed-with-brahmos-missiles-aerospace-co-director/articleshow/131980569.cms 40 mki with brahmos.
G_B_ Posted June 25 Posted June 25 2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Army failure. Zorawar needs to be inducted now. Its a good design though not perfect. I read army wanted thicker armour. But that will mean 30 tonne tank with 1000hp engine.
G_B_ Posted June 25 Posted June 25 Interesting topic i read. Army wants 1000 t72 tanks remote controlled T72 indian tank is around 46 tonne. With no crew you can modify it to 40 tonnes. Can serve as a light tank.
Lone Wolf Posted June 25 Posted June 25 10 minutes ago, G_B_ said: Army failure. Zorawar needs to be inducted now. Its a good design though not perfect. I read army wanted thicker armour. But that will mean 30 tonne tank with 1000hp engine. 100% it is Army's fault.. they also only gave token 307 order for ATAGS which outperformed even Israeli ATHOS but we somehow still are interested in it & we know why is that G_B_ 1
jf1gp_1 Posted June 25 Posted June 25 We should have dumped GE long back. They have been creating engine problem for well over a decade.
singhvivek141 Posted June 25 Posted June 25 (edited) 5 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Actually they are saying that GE 414 is expensive for AMCA Mk1 but not for Tejas Mk2.. Hard to make sense of it but this is the official word Who is negotiating for AMCA mk1 ? Is it BDL ? Or DRDO ? Since the vendor isnt signed yet this is a challenge. I know HAL is negotiating for Tejas mk2, coz its their product. Maybe as AMCA will use twin engine, the requirement is high as for 5 prototypes 15 engines will be needed (5 as backup). Tejas mk2 can manage with 4-5 engines. Anyway, whoever out of Tata, L&T and Bharat Forge wins AMCa contract, IAF should not allow the other bidders to return empty handed. They can give TEDBF contract to the runner up and something to the second runner up. Promoting the pvt players is important, they are doing it for the first time. So chances of failure is high. Though, I have a fewling Tata might win this contract, they have exp with fuselage and also building C295 in India. Just they need to keep price in check. Edited June 25 by singhvivek141 Lone Wolf 1
Lone Wolf Posted June 25 Posted June 25 So talks are happening that MeA is trying to keep it low key to avoid scrutiny. Also means Rubio was right when he claimed that both sides had agreed to talk on a neutral ground No wonder RSS is singing Aman ki Asha tunes as well.
G_B_ Posted June 25 Posted June 25 I still think just push heavily with mki upgrades and have 600 of these jets. Incorporate upgrades from su57. You can maybe place 100 rafale orders. 64 for air force and 36 more for navy. I dont see a role for tejas in an era of stand off strikes. Wait for amca...
G_B_ Posted June 25 Posted June 25 3 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: 100% it is Army's fault.. they also only gave token 307 order for ATAGS which outperformed even Israeli ATHOS but we somehow still are interested in it & we know why is that Re i think thats how army operates. K9 got 100 orders then another 100 and now 300 order coming up. Zorawar too they could have given 150 orders with upgrades incorporated with upcoming batches. But was also reading to be fair that border infra is improved manifold since Galwan. It is now possible to get a t72 and t90 to any border in quick time. Its also why m777 guns did not have a follow on. General infra improved. 145 was seen enough. Cause there were reports of india ordering a 1000 of these with bae moving production to india. So the question is, is a 1000hp (up from 760hp) t72 better than a dedicated light tank. Is that improved power to weight ratio enough under extreme conditions with thin air. You need a power to weight ratio of 30 to 35. You need overall weight (for bridges etc) less than 50 tonnes. These are the key metrics.
Lone Wolf Posted June 25 Posted June 25 14 minutes ago, G_B_ said: Its also why m777 guns did not have a follow on. General infra improved. 145 was seen enough. Cause there were reports of india ordering a 1000 of these with bae moving production to india Sergio Gor 2 days before announced $230 million Sustainment Package for m77 howitzers. Jizya is permanent regardless Btw he has locked his comment section coz Indians online are fed up of Trump Admin
Lone Wolf Posted June 25 Posted June 25 23 minutes ago, G_B_ said: Re i think thats how army operates. K9 got 100 orders then another 100 and now 300 order coming up. Zorawar too they could have given 150 orders with upgrades incorporated with upcoming batches. But was also reading to be fair that border infra is improved manifold since Galwan. It is now possible to get a t72 and t90 to any border in quick time. K9 is still imported, it's natural that smaller order will be placed and assembled. Zorawar is homegrown and most likely will get get killed for imports coz of unreasonable demands by Army and Rajnath is no Parrikar to put his foot down either as we have seen Gen HS Panag has taken tanks upto Karakoram pass to its southern side North of the DBO even. Challenge is always how quickly we can do it and how much quantity we can actually muster. And its not that easy with T90's naturally. Chinese have 100 times better infra but they still needed Type 15 light tanks for those inhospitable heights. Zorawar was meant to counter it. It is not that inferior to Type 15 either.
G_B_ Posted June 25 Posted June 25 33 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: Sergio Gor 2 days before announced $230 million Sustainment Package for m77 howitzers. Jizya is permanent regardless Btw he has locked his comment section coz Indians online are fed up of Trump Admin As i understand includes lots of excalibur ammunition among other things. We can make the standard on one at home.
G_B_ Posted June 25 Posted June 25 21 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: K9 is still imported, it's natural that smaller order will be placed and assembled. Zorawar is homegrown and most likely will get get killed for imports coz of unreasonable demands by Army and Rajnath is no Parrikar to put his foot down either as we have seen Gen HS Panag has taken tanks upto Karakoram pass to its southern side North of the DBO even. Challenge is always how quickly we can do it and how much quantity we can actually muster. And its not that easy with T90's naturally. Chinese have 100 times better infra but they still needed Type 15 light tanks for those inhospitable heights. Zorawar was meant to counter it. It is not that inferior to Type 15 either. Chinese have much harsher conditions with terrain their side. Explains the t15 tank. As mentioned engine upgrades to t90 and t72 + tunnels bridges etc will drastically reduce that time. One thing GoI has understood is building infra on our side allows for better usage of existing eqipment. Bro budget has seen huge increase. Army does need 500 zorawar regardless of upgrades to t90 and t72. I dont see any options in the market either which will be cheaper.
singhvivek141 Posted June 25 Posted June 25 https://defence.in/threads/power-play-is-ge-trying-to-stall-undermine-sabotage-indias-indigenous-fighter-jet-programs.18095/ Seems Su57 import is on the cards, while Tejas mk2, AMCA and TEDBF may be redesigned. Atleast AMCA & TEDBF redesign should happen...F414 can be ordered in limited numbers (150) for 6 squadrons ~120 jets...this will ensure our fighter jet squadrons wont fall below 35. We may see a slip of one or two years for TEDBF & AMCA but not more...by then even the engine from Safran would arrive. But locking the engine deal with safran is key else they too will bump the price.
singhvivek141 Posted June 26 Posted June 26 15 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: So talks are happening that MeA is trying to keep it low key to avoid scrutiny. Also means Rubio was right when he claimed that both sides had agreed to talk on a neutral ground No wonder RSS is singing Aman ki Asha tunes as well. What are they expecting from the talks ? Is Pookistan gonna drop the radicalization against Non Muslims ? Pookistan is worried about the insurgencies in PoJK, KPK, Balochistan and to a small level in Sindh. Plus Saudis are pulling them in MIddle East conflict. They are facing challenges within the foot soldiers. While Indian border is comparatively quiet and the only real challenge is Indus Water Treaty. Which we shouldn't give up as thats the leverage. If US is promising us the delivery of engines, then overtly show calm at the border, but covertly arm the TTP & BLA is what I would suggest. Ajit Doval is a expert in covert strategic operations which we can see from the POV of unknown gunmen killings. But time is high to escalate the cost of war in Pakistan. Give BLA & Afghan Taliban drones & other loitering munitions so that they can strike at Pak military posts. Already Russia is giving them some form of air defence. For India's sake, its important that Pakistan bleed from inside. A stable Pakistan is against India....we have to be like a wolf and play the same game which Pooks play with US.
Lone Wolf Posted June 26 Posted June 26 (edited) 14 hours ago, G_B_ said: As i understand includes lots of excalibur ammunition among other things. We can make the standard on one at home. Massively overpriced for mere 130 odd guns regardless. Happens in case of imports. It's not as if you are sending us Subsonic cruise missiles. 14 hours ago, G_B_ said: Chinese have much harsher conditions with terrain their side. Explains the t15 tank. As mentioned engine upgrades to t90 and t72 + tunnels bridges etc will drastically reduce that time. One thing GoI has understood is building infra on our side allows for better usage of existing eqipment. Bro budget has seen huge increase. Army does need 500 zorawar regardless of upgrades to t90 and t72. I dont see any options in the market either which will be cheaper. Terrain is much harsher on Indian side compared to Chinese flat Tibetan plateau, Changthangh plateau in SE Ladakh and Xinjiang autonomous region. Their mechanised divisions don't have much issues to deploy quickly in numbers Makes even more sense for us to opt for light tanks Edited June 26 by Lone Wolf
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