Ooops, who will we curse now?

[Deleted_User_1]

Veeru, Bhajji + Sharma Rest were xtras

Add Gambhir to that, he was OK. The rest sucked so it is NOT that there are no problems despite this win. Anyway if India does not win the series, it is a failure as far as I am concerned.

[Dhondy]

For the record, since Jan 2006, in 2nd inns efforts: Sachin averages 21 in 22 games, with a grand total of ONE 50. Dravid averages 34 in 30 odd games, with zero 50s since SA' 2006 Laxman & Ganguly do marginally better averaging 37 & 38 respectively in the same period. In the SAME time period, look at what the Aussie middle order has done: Ponting averages 70, with THREE tons Hussey averages 78, with TWO tons Clarke averages 75, with one ton & four 50s See a pattern ?

That's an absolutely stark contrast, Bumps, and rams home the point that our famed middle order melt like Job's wife in a flowing stream. Shocking figures. How frail are this lot mentally?

[Bumper]

That's an absolutely stark contrast, Bumps, and rams home the point that our famed middle order melt like Job's wife in a flowing stream. Shocking figures. How frail are this lot mentally?

Dhondy, we already know, Sachin has always been like that in 2nd innings, in almost his entire career (barring a few exceptions). So his 2nd innings no show in the last couple of years, isnt a big surprise for me. It is Dravid & Laxman who used to stand up in big games, come crunch moments. This is where the decline of Dravid has really hurt us very very badly. Sehwag's brilliance oflate, has been papering these cracks effectively. The day he runs out of form, we are finished. Take out some of his humungous knocks in recent games (150+ in Adelaide, 319 in Chennai & 201, 50 in Galle), we'd have been brutally exposed. And whats most frustrating for me, is that in the 90s our middle order wasnt effective because of lack of good openers and a good bowling attack to back them. With both in place now, our MO should be winning a lot more test matches!

[Dhondy]

Sehwag's brilliance oflate, has been papering these cracks effectively. The day he runs out of form, we are finished. Take out some of his humungous knocks in recent games (150+ in Adelaide, 319 in Chennai & 201, 50 in Galle), we'd have been brutally exposed.

As we were at Melbourne and the 2nd innings at Sydney, where he didn't figure, and Ahmedabad and SSC, where he failed. One out, all out is Team India's new motto.

[Ram]

Sehwag's brilliance oflate, has been papering these cracks effectively. The day he runs out of form, we are finished. Take out some of his humungous knocks in recent games (150+ in Adelaide, 319 in Chennai & 201, 50 in Galle), we'd have been brutally exposed.

This is the part I fail to realize. Saying that is akin to saying 'Take out one of the wheels of your car and watch is crash'.. Of course it will, coz its designed that way. The dynamics of team sport is also like that. At various points of time, some individual will raise his hand and make himself counted. If it werent for Sehwag that day, it would have probably been someone. Not EVERY one our test triumphs in the last 18 months were fashioned on the back on Sehwag's performance. We won in Eng without him, we won against Pakistan without him. Sure, he is a mighty important player, but he isnt as indispensable as he seems to be.

[Bumper]

This is the part I fail to realize. Saying that is akin to saying 'Take out one of the wheels of your car and watch is crash'.. Of course it will, coz its designed that way. The dynamics of team sport is also like that. At various points of time, some individual will raise his hand and make himself counted. If it werent for Sehwag that day, it would have probably been someone. Not EVERY one our test triumphs in the last 18 months were fashioned on the back on Sehwag's performance. We won in Eng without him, we won against Pakistan without him. Sure, he is a mighty important player, but he isnt as indispensable as he seems to be.

You missed the point Sriram. Sehwag is doing was SRT was doing back in the 90s, when we were a cr@ppy team -- a one man batting army in most games (with others chipping in, occasionally). Today, we are supposed to be a better batting lineup overall. Hence must be seeing a lot more than an individual putting his hands up, when the team is in a soup. More often than not, when you play a good team, first innings almost evens out & it is what you do in the 2nd innings that saves or sets up the game. We cant just rely on batting once & scoring 600+, to win a test match. Thats not a high probability strategy.

[cowboysfan]

That's an absolutely stark contrast, Bumps, and rams home the point that our famed middle order melt like Job's wife in a flowing stream. Shocking figures. How frail are this lot mentally?

that is a bad stat-jeez.we need some young blood next series with some moxie.

[Ram]

You missed the point Sriram. Sehwag is doing was SRT was doing back in the 90s' date=' when we were a cr@ppy team -- a one man batting army in most games (with others chipping in, occasionally). Today, we are supposed to be a better batting lineup overall. Hence must be seeing a lot more than an individual putting his hands up, when the team is in a soup. More often than not, when you play a good team, first innings almost evens out & it is what you do in the 2nd innings that saves or sets up the game. We cant just rely on batting once & scoring 600+, to win a test match. Thats not a high probability strategy.[/quote'] I think the last half of your post about how its important to contribute in the 2nd innings is not exactly connected to what we are discussing here. I dont agree with a sweeping assessment that goes along the lines of 'Remove Sehwag and we are toast'. That is not to say I mean to downplay his contributions. Our batting has enough quality to not depend one individual. Sure, that one individual may be driving all our success right now, but that is not to say we will be ineffective without him. Hope you get the difference.

[Mr. Wicket]

This is the part I fail to realize. Saying that is akin to saying 'Take out one of the wheels of your car and watch is crash'.. Of course it will, coz its designed that way. The dynamics of team sport is also like that. At various points of time, some individual will raise his hand and make himself counted. If it werent for Sehwag that day, it would have probably been someone.

Rubbish. The reason some of us make the statement 'Take out Sehwag here, and watch how things change' is simply because Sehwag adds a dynamic to the side and does things that almost NO OTHER BATSMAN CAN. The man belts gigantic scores with a frightening consistency. Only Lara and Bradman match him in that regard, in appetites for runs and the ability and stamina to pull off such innings. The man can deliver on all pitches and situations, with a panache and capacity for making the opponents' plans redudant that can nullify whomever he's up against. Field placements be damned, bowling plans be damned, if Sehwag wants to pile his way to a big score against your leg side field, wide outside off or phaast boiling attack, he will. Of other batsmen in the last few decades who could do that and keep making runs with great consistency, only Lara, Tendulkar and Gavaskar really stand out. There are a handful of batsmen through history who can be bracketed with Sehwag for the runs they scored, the way they scored them, and their reliability and ability to deliver against the best. Saying 'if it werent for Sehwag that day, it would have probably been someone' is nonsense, because such batsmen can stand up when nobody else will and do so quite often. If Sehwag had failed, the rest would have likely followed. If Sehwag performed, many of the others would have still struggled or perhaps one or two may have grafted their way to a useful contribution as Gambhir did. But nobody could have stepped up to deliver in the manner he did.

[Ram]

^ Our last two series victories against worthwhile opponents, in the last 18 months, were achieved without Sehwag. I quite dont understand why an assessment that goes along the lines of 'Our batting has enough quality to sustain without Sehwag' should be construed as 'Sehwag is not as good as he seems' and all sorts of defense mounted in favor of him.

[punjabi_khota]

Hahaha@wonderful performance by MO. Also, I smell irony in this thread.

[Mr. Wicket]

^ Our last two series victories against worthwhile opponents, in the last 18 months, were achieved without Sehwag.

So what might they have been with Sehwag? I'm not saying India cannot win without Sehwag. But this side, with a shaky middle order struggling for form, confidence and runs, against a team of two world class spinners on designer home pitches, would have really struggled. There isn't a batsman in India who could have played a knock like that 201 to set up the Galle win. Take Sehwag out, and India could still do well in some areas and against some opponents. But with him, they become a far more formidable force just because he can do things most other batsmen can't. When you have a batsman who thinks nothing of belting a double hundred in a day, or responding to a massive total with one of his own at breakneck speed, you get a huge competitive edge.

[Ram]

So what might they have been with Sehwag?

Thats just speculation, no one will ever know.

I'm not saying India cannot win without Sehwag. But this side, with a shaky middle order struggling for form, confidence and runs, against a team of two world class spinners on designer home pitches, would have really struggled. There isn't a batsman in India who could have played a knock like that 201 to set up the Galle win. Take Sehwag out, and India could still do well in some areas and against some opponents. But with him, they become a far more formidable force just because he can do things most other batsmen can't. When you have a batsman who thinks nothing of belting a double hundred in a day, or responding to a massive total with one of his own at breakneck speed, you get a huge competitive edge.

Sehwag is indeed the main weapon in our arsenal right now, I dont disagree with that. But, would we struggled to cope against Murali and Mendis without him. Maybe, maybe not.

[Bumper]

But, would we struggled to cope against Murali and Mendis without him. Maybe, maybe not.

Thats a pretty naive comment, though. You are grossly underestimating the brilliance of Veeru. Its like saying, if KP hadnt dominated McGrath in the few encounters they've had, someone else in the English batting lineup would have. We've all heard endlessly about how SRT took apart Warne or Lara hammered Murali, but how about some recognition for this maverick, Veeru taking the duo Mendis & Murali to the cleaners in their own backyard ? This is perhaps the most dominant batsman Murali has come up against, in the last 5 years and thats not saying much. Veeru's sheer dominance against pace & spin, is unseen in the cricketing world, since Viv retired.

[Mr. Wicket]

Agree for the most part Bumper (and disagree for most of the same reasons, marirs). But Bumps, I'd remove that 'since Viv retired'. Viv was troubled by quality spinners from time to time - Qadir in particular. There weren't many around his time, so he wasn't tested too often - but was unbelievably dominant against pace otherwise. Sehwag is just as dominant v. pace IMO, and even more impressive against spin. Remember, this is a man who can hammer Murali and Mendis into the ground, obliterate Warne and make Stuart MacGill despair, while also ending the career of one of the finest finger spinners the game has seen in Saqlain.

[SachDan]

Agree for the most part Bumper (and disagree for most of the same reasons, marirs). But Bumps, I'd remove that 'since Viv retired'. Viv was troubled by quality spinners from time to time - Qadir in particular. There weren't many around his time, so he wasn't tested too often - but was unbelievably dominant against pace otherwise. Sehwag is just as dominant v. pace IMO, and even more impressive against spin. Remember, this is a man who can hammer Murali and Mendis into the ground, obliterate Warne and make Stuart MacGill despair, while also ending the career of one of the finest finger spinners the game has seen in Saqlain.

absolutely right...his consistent attacking play against both pace and spin is just amazing to say the least btw..plz change that avatar.

[Bumper]

Salil, Its true that, Viv has not been tested by the likes of Warne, Murali & Mendis. But given his greatness, I reckon he'd have found a way to dominate them. Gilly reminds me a lot of Viv. Gilly is not known to have great technique against spinners, but still found a way to knock tons in India & SL, against the best spinners of his era. I think Viv too would have managed something similar.

[Predator_05]

I don't like to compare players from different eras because it's a pointless exercise, but it's safe to say that Veeru is a much better player of spin than Viv Richards was. Viv even got owned by some mediocre paki spinner named Nazir junior.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

Dhondy, we already know, Sachin has always been like that in 2nd innings, in almost his entire career (barring a few exceptions). So his 2nd innings no show in the last couple of years, isnt a big surprise for me. It is Dravid & Laxman who used to stand up in big games, come crunch moments. This is where the decline of Dravid has really hurt us very very badly. Sehwag's brilliance oflate, has been papering these cracks effectively. The day he runs out of form, we are finished. Take out some of his humungous knocks in recent games (150+ in Adelaide, 319 in Chennai & 201, 50 in Galle), we'd have been brutally exposed. And whats most frustrating for me, is that in the 90s our middle order wasnt effective because of lack of good openers and a good bowling attack to back them. With both in place now, our MO should be winning a lot more test matches!

When Sehwag was out of the side we won series against England and Pakistan. With Sehwag in, we lost to Australia drew to South Africa and are 1-1 against Sri Lanka. But why should we let facts get into the way of senior bashing season. Tendulkar/Dravid partnership was the last 50+ partnership of the test against the old ball. But that fact also blows holes into the senior bashing extravaganza going on. We shouldn't let that come into the picture either. We managed to win this test by pretty much the same margin the Aussies won at Galle of whom we are singing praises of. But that fact also drills holes into the bashing of the "seniors".