SRT in form

[vvvslaxman]

I know all those innings. Those were not saving matches . You think i would have missed it. NO. Those matches were destined for draws. Otherwise i would have included Dravid's 190 & 103 not out there. That 136 not out is as much as a terrific innings is also one of the most incomplete innings of Sachin's career. A very bitter sweet experience. I was watching it live. These are the words that still echo in my ears "Don't leave it to others to finish when you can finish" Gavaskar's words right after the match. Yes.. none of these things is going to belittle him. But If you are talking about an average batsman i perfectly accept your argument.

[The Outsider]

But 400 is not a limit, is it? Again, its just a reasonable approximation of a good score for a team on the pitches that we see today. Say you have set a standard that in a particular innings, the team will have to declare at 750 (if they score that much), and are not allowed bat any further. In that case, Brian Lara's 400* is a phenomenal achievement. However, a 4WI or a 5WI or a 10WI is always more impressive because you can't take more than 10 wickets. So Anil Kumble's 10 WI is a lot more impressive than Anil Kumble's 110* in a team score of 664 runs.

You're talking about end points and exceptional cases, if you read the second part of my post it refers to an "evening" out of these disparities in conditions over a long enough career. Yes there is the fundamental limitation of 10 wickets being the maximum a bowler can take in an innings, but firstly that is an extreme and secondly if your bowling partners suck you are still in with a chance to to take 8/9/10 wickets because the batting side might continue batting. However, if your batting partners suck there is a good chance that you will be left stranded not out or throw your wicket away at 50 even though you could have scored 200+ Just have a look at the 5 wicket hauls and the number of centuries of the leading players - they are very similar in number, outliers like Murali and Bradman notwithstanding.

[vvvslaxman]

Just to support my argument' date=' in the series Brian Lara scored a 400 in, he has 500 runs in the series ( the supposedly rational standard), he scored 23, 0, 0, 8, 36, 33, 400. Now when you look at his statistics, it will say 500 runs. How is this more significant than say, 160, DNB, 62, 49, 64, 9 ? Hmm?[/quote'] 46 ,63, 13 , 115, 148 , 217 is even better isn't it? :winky: Not making up. These are Dravid's stats in England tour.

[punjabi_khota]

46 ' date='63, 13 , 115, 148 , 217 is even better isn't it? :winky: Not making up. These are Dravid's stats in England tour.[/quote'] Sachin Vs Dravid on ICF is as old as Microsoft Vs Linux on tech boards. I have heard that talking about it invites either: 1). Instaban or 2). Ridicule or 3). Finelegiosis (symptoms include abuse of ">" and ">>" symbols, wishing injury upon players and/or getting confused between names of stadia and cities..e.g. waca and perth)

[graphic23]

The man was fighting a back that could've potentially ruined his career. And it was against Pakistan after a considerable gap of test match cricket in India between the two nations. Could the pressure be any higher? And that he fell within 20 runs of victory, and the other tailenders could not even manage that is an unjustice done to his innings.

[vvvslaxman]

What exactly you mean by "Missing in CV" . It is nothing but stats. What exactly is wrong in pointing out misisng ones. Everyone is going to miss something. It doesn't mean they are bad. Jeez.. 1) Century in each innings NIL 2) More than 2 centuries in a series NIL 3) 500 plus runs NIL What exactly you fill up in your resume? We fans proudly claim he is the only to cross 500 in two world cups. What is that? that is also a stat. That is also an arbitrary value isn't it? I am a sachin's fan as well. This all out effort to protect Sachin at any cost is just waste of time.

[graphic23]

46 ' date='63, 13 , 115, 148 , 217 is even better isn't it? :winky: Not making up. These are Dravid's stats in England tour.[/quote'] I am the last one to belittle Dravid's importance to India. I'd be the biggest fanboy if it wasn't for certain individuals on this board. Having said that, 4, 155* (191), 79 (86), 177, 31 - aren't these awesome scores as well, but you'd discount these because they don't add up to 400. See my problem with the '500' target? Or perhaps, how about considering the fact that he is one of the very few individuals to win the Man of the Series award after his side lost 3-0 (and he was captain)? Too much filtering is done with random standards, and that is unfair to players like Sachin, who, arguably, carried the team singlehandedly. How else would you explain collapses like the one in Kolkata vs. SL in 1996 WC ?

[vvvslaxman]

I am the last one to belittle Dravid's importance to India. I'd be the biggest fanboy if it wasn't for certain individuals on this board. Having said that, 4, 155* (191), 79 (86), 177, 31 - aren't these awesome scores as well, but you'd discount these because they don't add up to 400. See my problem with the '500' target? Or perhaps, how about considering the fact that he is one of the very few individuals to win the Man of the Series award after his side lost 3-0 (and he was captain)? Too much filtering is done with random standards, and that is unfair to players like Sachin, who, arguably, carried the team singlehandedly. How else would you explain collapses like the one in Kolkata vs. SL in 1996 WC ?

All the cricket stats are arbitrary. 1000 runs in a calendar year. Someone will ask.. why 999 is not good enough? You can keep on questioning the stats.

[graphic23]

What exactly you mean by "Missing in CV" . It is nothing but stats. What exactly is wrong in pointing out misisng ones. Everyone is going to miss something. It doesn't mean they are bad. Jeez.. 1) Century in each innings NIL 2) More than 2 centuries in a series NIL 3) 500 plus runs NIL What exactly you fill up in your resume? We fans proudly claim he is the only to cross 500 in two world cups. What is that? that is also a stat. That is also an arbitrary value isn't it? I am a sachin's fan as well. This all out effort to protect Sachin at any cost is just waste of time.

Mate, if you're going to comment on his innings at Chennai vs. Pakistan, and claim that he didn't finish the innings, I'll keep on debating because the standards upon which you're judging these players as great and average is simply random. I'm not proud of the fact that he's scored more than 500 runs in two WCs. That he top scored in two different WCs is what is so amazing.

[graphic23]

All the cricket stats are arbitrary. 1000 runs in a calendar year. Someone will ask.. why 999 is not good enough? You can keep on questioning the stats.

When your filter for these statistics inadvertently allow for a lot of error, you must expect some questioning of your standards. Every run that Laxman scored in 2001 vs. Australia was extremely important towards the 2-1 result that we enjoyed and in that case his 500+ runs meant something (oh, and he scored outside of the 281 too). The 500 runs that Brian Lara scored don't mean anything to WI - zilch. 0,0,31,33,28 don't make for good viewing, but then add it to 400, and all of a sudden, Brian Lara had a great tour because he made 500 runs in the series.

[vvvslaxman]

Mate, if you're going to comment on his innings at Chennai vs. Pakistan, and claim that he didn't finish the innings, I'll keep on debating because the standards upon which you're judging these players as great and average is simply random. I'm not proud of the fact that he's scored more than 500 runs in two WCs. That he top scored in two different WCs is what is so amazing.

That was one of the greatest Test innings i have seen. But you cannot completely turn a blind eye to what happened towards the end. He hit 4 fours of Saqi. I still remember telling myself.. "slow down slow down". I can bring up each and every important Test where he could have stepped up but didn't. I dont want to . I am not here to bash Sachin.I have been his fan over 19 years.But i can honestly admit his errors in judgement over a period. Sure his achievements overwhelmingly outweigh his errors. But some of them i cannot forget. These observations are subjective. You can disagree. I have no problem.

[Gambit]

What exactly you mean by "Missing in CV" . It is nothing but stats. What exactly is wrong in pointing out misisng ones. Everyone is going to miss something. It doesn't mean they are bad. Jeez.. 1) Century in each innings NIL 2) More than 2 centuries in a series NIL 3) 500 plus runs NIL

The lack of 1) is most glaring as every top batsman of his era has done it. Punter, Lara and Dravid have done it more than once.

[The Outsider]

On the 500+ runs in a WC I think it's a cr@p stat - the ODI game has evolved so much between '75 and now, the number of matches played in the earlier WCs, the different batting conditions different WCs were played in etc. etc. The only relevant point there is that Tendulkar top scored twice in 2 separate WCs separated by 8 years. Heck, I just checked the stats of the highest total in a WC till '83 - it was Gower's 384 in the '83 WC(and those were 60 over matches) and someone in the first 2 WCs obviously had no chance because there was only one round played. Yes, if after 20 odd WCs, Tendulkar remains the only or one of the few batsmen to score 500+ runs over a comparable number of games, then that is something commendable.

[graphic23]

That was one of the greatest Test innings i have seen. But you cannot completely turn a blind eye to what happened towards the end. He hit 4 fours of Saqi. I still remember telling myself.. "slow down slow down". I can bring up each and every important Test where he could have stepped up but didn't. I dont want to . I am not here to bash Sachin.I have been his fan over 19 years.But i can honestly admit his errors in judgement over a period. Sure his achievements overwhelmingly outweigh his errors. But some of them i cannot forget. These observations are subjective. You can disagree. I have no problem.

An calculative view of his career should not prevent you from hiding the circumstances around his career either. The 136 was constructed when he was in a great deal of pain, and he only started attacking once he could no longer keep the pain in control. And yet, if we are only commenting on he didn't finish the job, the fault lies not with the player but our 'expectations'. And I am enjoying the debate, and its fine if we agree to disagree.

On the 500+ runs in a WC I think it's a cr@p stat - the ODI game has evolved so much between '75 and now, the number of matches played in the earlier WCs, the different batting conditions different WCs were played in etc. etc. The only relevant point there is that Tendulkar top scored twice in 2 separate WCs separated by 8 years. Heck, I just checked the stats of the highest total in a WC till '83 - it was Gower's 384 in the '83 WC(and those were 60 over matches) and someone in the first 2 WCs obviously had no chance because there was only one round played. Yes, if after 20 odd WCs, Tendulkar remains the only or one of the few batsmen to score 500+ runs over a comparable number of games, then that is something commendable.

Agreed (and I've mentioned that in the previous post :P ). But it is indeed great that he was at the top of the list on two different occasions, and not too far down in the WC in between these two.

[DomainK]

That was one of the greatest Test innings i have seen. But you cannot completely turn a blind eye to what happened towards the end. He hit 4 fours of Saqi. I still remember telling myself.. "slow down slow down". I can bring up each and every important Test where he could have stepped up but didn't. I dont want to . I am not here to bash Sachin.I have been his fan over 19 years.But i can honestly admit his errors in judgement over a period. Sure his achievements overwhelmingly outweigh his errors. But some of them i cannot forget. These observations are subjective. You can disagree. I have no problem.

It amuses me to no end when armchair critics start telling what Sachin should have done on the field. But of course as a fan you have the right to your opinion. However, these debates have been done to death and nothing ever came out of it.

[varun]

Sachin Vs Dravid on ICF is as old as Microsoft Vs Linux on tech boards. I have heard that talking about it invites either: 1). Instaban or 2). Ridicule or 3). Finelegiosis (symptoms include abuse of ">" and ">>" symbols, wishing injury upon players and/or getting confused between names of stadia and cities..e.g. waca and perth)

:omg: I had totally forgotten about the "==>>>" !!!

[vvvslaxman]

It amuses me to no end when armchair critics start telling what Sachin should have done on the field. But of course as a fan you have the right to your opinion. However, these debates have been done to death and nothing ever came out of it.

Exactly !! That is why i tried to wind up! But i was compelled to respond. I quit topics about Tendulkar long back. I just threw a oneline stat. That's it. Didn't expect it would blow into a debate.

[DomainK]

Exactly !! That is why i tried to wind up! But i was compelled to respond. I quit topics about Tendulkar long back. I just threw a oneline stat. That's it. Didn't expect it would blow into a debate.

But its good to see that you claim to be a fan of Sachin, Dravid and Laxman. I was growing sick and tired of people who think that if you are a fan of one player, you are bound to hate all others.

[The Outsider]

Exactly !! That is why i tried to wind up! But i was compelled to respond. I quit topics about Tendulkar long back. I just threw a oneline stat. That's it. Didn't expect it would blow into a debate.

Don't worry, I enjoyed it much more than a billion B-> threads floating around ICF these days - hoping for a 2 line stat the next time.

[gaurav92]

sachin :adore: tears ran down my eyes when mumbai lost the match