The Role of Indians in a Globalized market

[Lurker]

Most Indians going abroad immediately try and find Indian shops and Indian neighbourhoods in their city of residence. Sure' date=' it's comforting to live in these areas but shouldn't you have lived in India if you wanted such environs? [b']What's the point in living in a new place if you don't even make an effort to integrate yourself with mainstream society? This 'ghetto' mentality leads to angst amongst the 'natives' culminating in such attacks.

I think this post should lead into a thread called "The Role of Indians in a Globalized market". I dont think many Indians, if not most, realize the role we have, and should, in a Globalized market. The bulk of Indians I come across are quite vitriolic when it comes to dealing with a fellow Indian but become quite meek when it comes to dealing with Westerns. Speaking specifically from IT perspective I dont see many Indians who can walk into a boardroom, hold their own against Western compatriots (more so the Managers), and instead are more than happy to be told to add a column to a table, change the do-loop to do 25 rounds instead of 50 and so on. This is one reason, I think, why companies like TCS/Infosys/Wipro have not made it to the same level as an Accenture say. This is also the reason why Indians may have an image of smart people from a poor country who avoid confrontation and keeps to themselves. I am not sure if thats an image any Indian would like to keep. Mods can you split it into its own thread? I do see this as a discussion that would add value. xxx

[Lurker]

Thanks MODs. I definitely think Indians need to start realizing that we have a core role to play in the Globalized market and not merely expect the Government of India to bail us out every time. Generally speaking the citizens of a country create a bigger impression than the Government overall (unless you are led by a Bush that is). An example: Currently in this bad economic market most employees are quite unenthusiastic and scared about their jobs. This is adversly affecting productivity. Many teams have engaged in what they call as "team building exercise" to boost their morals. My current client basically started a Kickball tournament amongst different divisions. Most of these teams have a lot of Indians and frankly we cut a very sorry figure, including yours truly. Now I am not suggesting that every Indian should be a kickball champ but what I am suggesting is if we have to live in a Global village we need to understand our roles and responsibility. Gone are the days of 8-5 and picking a check, there is lot more at stake today. xxx

[graphic23]

Thanks MODs. I definitely think Indians need to start realizing that we have a core role to play in the Globalized market and not merely expect the Government of India to bail us out every time. Generally speaking the citizens of a country create a bigger impression than the Government overall (unless you are led by a Bush that is). An example: Currently in this bad economic market most employees are quite unenthusiastic and scared about their jobs. This is adversly affecting productivity. Many teams have engaged in what they call as "team building exercise" to boost their morals. My current client basically started a Kickball tournament amongst different divisions. Most of these teams have a lot of Indians and frankly we cut a very sorry figure, including yours truly. Now I am not suggesting that every Indian should be a kickball champ but what I am suggesting is if we have to live in a Global village we need to understand our roles and responsibility. Gone are the days of 8-5 and picking a check, there is lot more at stake today. xxx

That is certainly true. A lot more people notice and comment on how Indians keep to themselves, eat with their own type of people, hide their food while eating, etc (these are all comments that I've heard from my friends about other Indian folks they've met). While it does not mean give up being 'Indian' (whatever that means), ,it does mean that we need to participate, assimilate at a higher level that we do now.

[DomainK]

I think this post should lead into a thread called "The Role of Indians in a Globalized market". I dont think many Indians, if not most, realize the role we have, and should, in a Globalized market. The bulk of Indians I come across are quite vitriolic when it comes to dealing with a fellow Indian but become quite meek when it comes to dealing with Westerns. Speaking specifically from IT perspective I dont see many Indians who can walk into a boardroom, hold their own against Western compatriots (more so the Managers), and instead are more than happy to be told to add a column to a table, change the do-loop to do 25 rounds instead of 50 and so on. This is one reason, I think, why companies like TCS/Infosys/Wipro have not made it to the same level as an Accenture say. This is also the reason why Indians may have an image of smart people from a poor country who avoid confrontation and keeps to themselves. I am not sure if thats an image any Indian would like to keep. Mods can you split it into its own thread? I do see this as a discussion that would add value. xxx

That is correct Lurk and I think the mentality exists within India as well. Someone from a small town finds the city guys intimidating and stays an underachiever. The reason most definitely is an inferiority complex. Some overcome it and most can not. Somewhere we believe that we are not good enough. We lack confidence and we believe very strongly that they are better than us. Macroscopically, they are. Individually, any one of us can be better than them. Its not a question of how skilled/intelligent, its a question of how confident we are. I agree strongly with Gambit. Even in India, a Bengali comes to Bombay/Delhi and finds fellow Bengalies to mix up with. A Gujju mixes with Gujjus and a Mallu mixes with Mallus. A small towner finds it hard to mix up with the city guys. They usually migrate when they are young and by the time they get used to thing, its usually quite late and they find that the inferiority complex has set deep roots already. Similar is the case with Indians abroad.

[The Outsider]

There is a lot of truth to what you are saying and it came as quite a shock to me when I moved from academia to the industry. It took me quite a bit of time to get used to the different mindset a lot of people carry, for example : 1. As you have already eluded, they would just take the requirements given to them and work on them, hardly if ever taking a constructive part in a discussion. And this does not apply only when the manager is a foreigner. I think this stems from our education system where the teacher is always right and there is hardly any atmosphere of discussion. Academics are of course on the other end of the spectrum where I have seen and been involved in arguments where a graduate student is more than willing to hold his own amongst some big names of the field. 2. The really annoying part I found was when given the requirements people would just say "Yes, I got it". And then later you find they did not "get it". A complete contrast to acedemia once again.

[cowboysfan]

i think there is a lot of truth in Lurker's theory but this might be true for most immigrant communities in the US when they first arrive here;the evidence is there in all major cities.I do think that 1st generation Indians and ABCDs are a lot more integrated into the US societies and i can see that in my own cousins who were born here.

[Lurker]

A lot more people notice and comment on how Indians keep to themselves' date= eat with their own type of people, hide their food while eating, etc (these are all comments that I've heard from my friends about other Indian folks they've met).

I think this is specially true in IT. I am not sure if some of this is driven due to the fact that chunks of Indians show up as part of overseas assignment from TCS say, and then generally go in groups together. Or that many Indian consultants are tied up with Indian companies and keep to their own. There is also this weird crab mentality of Indian companies that keep pushing their own talent down. Instead of investing in their talent/resources they often drum up in the head of Indian guys that the client is the King (how many times have I heard why a certain decision was made not because it was the best rationale but because a certain American said so). Compare this with an American company where in resources are thought of as key to success, although in this weird economy that is faltering too. xxx

[Lurker]

The reason most definitely is an inferiority complex. Some overcome it and most can not. Somewhere we believe that we are not good enough. We lack confidence and we believe very strongly that they are better than us.

I would like you to expand on that a little bit because I do think thats true. Why do we lack confidence, generally speaking? Shwetabh hits the nail on the head when he says it is very different in Academia. Why are we confident in Academics and not at work place? Is it because Academics is basically a place to excel in pure scholastic? And that noone can beat us down there? Is it because work place involves more man to man interaction and we readily suck? Is it because in Academia our Heads (Profs, Research heads etc) keep encouraging us while in Professional work we report, generally, to an Indian Manager who makes us wonder how did he get there in the first place?? There could be so many reasons really.

[DomainK]

I would like you to expand on that a little bit because I do think thats true. Why do we lack confidence, generally speaking? Shwetabh hits the nail on the head when he says it is very different in Academia. Why are we confident in Academics and not at work place? Is it because Academics is basically a place to excel in pure scholastic? And that noone can beat us down there? Is it because work place involves more man to man interaction and we readily suck? Is it because in Academia our Heads (Profs, Research heads etc) keep encouraging us while in Professional work we report, generally, to an Indian Manager who makes us wonder how did he get there in the first place?? There could be so many reasons really.

I can not say for sure as I have not had the opportunity to observe Indians in academia. But I imagine that age has something to do with that. Adaptability comes easier to students than to professionals. And the atmosphere is usually more competitive and people judgmental (of performance). All of a sudden, unlike in college, in a professional life you become a product and you have to sell yourself to others. The way you talk, the way you walk, the way you smile, your wit....everything together constitute the product that you are and you have to make that product salable. And you have to do that in an alien condition...in a culture that you have not entirely adapted. And unlike your friends in college, here your colleagues are trying to out perform you and to make you look lesser at every stage. I guess some of them slowly learn and adapt and some others (most) wear a mask. That contributes even more to the complex. I say the above based on what I have observed of students from small towns who come to study and work in cities. I myself came from a small town to Delhi after my graduation and hence I have seen and experiences the problems firsthand. I think the key lies in not trying to become like them in everything. If you are born and brought up in India (or an Indian family), you will retain that for the rest of your life. And there is nothing wrong with that. The key lies in being confident that you can out perform them with your talent and skills. Of course you have to change the outward habits. You have to follow their trends, you have to make sure that you are understandable in spite of your accent, you have yo make sure that you dont look entirely out of place. My experience says that if you are not restricting yourself, they will accept you. Be frank, be friendly and they will accept you. Be shy, stay in your 'herd' and they will make fun of you.

[atul]

In our mind, we don’t have any Indian identity but assume others are porting us as Indians. We carry all our caste/religion baggage with us. Just e.g we have two indain grocery store run by mallu and gujju, most of my mullu friend shops at mullu Indian grocery store. When ever in social Indian gathering we talked about how all software peoples are from Andhra when no Andhriates is there. Same is true back in India where all regional parties won the election. So when we are here in USA there is another new caste to deal like white American , black American and Hispanic. With out thinking in our mind we make white people equal to Brahmin ( I know in current political India Brahmins are not powerful , but still Brahmins is symbol for highest caste either for bashing or benefiting ) and treat black as shudra. As pointed out by other posters our education system, respect to elders and most important is limited opportunity while growing back lead to non confrontation nature.

[The Outsider]

I can not say for sure as I have not had the opportunity to observe Indians in academia. But I imagine that age has something to do with that. Adaptability comes easier to students than to professionals. And the atmosphere is usually more competitive and people judgmental (of performance). All of a sudden, unlike in college, in a professional life you become a product and you have to sell yourself to others. The way you talk, the way you walk, the way you smile, your wit....everything together constitute the product that you are and you have to make that product salable. And you have to do that in an alien condition...in a culture that you have not entirely adapted. And unlike your friends in college, here your colleagues are trying to out perform you and to make you look lesser at every stage.

I am sorry, but you have a completely incorrect notion of academia. I was not referring to college going students but academic professionals - graduate students, researchers, post doctoral fellows, professors. If you think the atmosphere in academics is any less competitive than the industry you are completely off base. You have to sell yourself, your work, the competition to publish and compete is intense. And yes, even in academics your colleagues are trying to outperform you at every step. The difference lies at least partly in the fact that without an open mind for discussion and criticism you are an absolute nobody in academics whereas in the industry you can still take home a decent pay check and get through your day, week, month, and career without being very critical, analytical, and fothcoming. Mediocrity in the industry is far more common than in academics, at least partially because of the number of people working in the industry compared to academics.

[Lurker]

I am sorry' date=' but you have a completely incorrect notion of academia.[b'] I was not referring to college going students but academic professionals - graduate students, researchers, post doctoral fellows, professors. If you think the atmosphere in academics is any less competitive than the industry you are completely off base. You have to sell yourself, your work, the competition to publish and compete is intense. And yes, even in academics your colleagues are trying to outperform you at every step. The difference lies at least partly in the fact that without an open mind for discussion and criticism you are an absolute nobody in academics whereas in the industry you can still take home a decent pay check and get through your day, week, month, and career without being very critical, analytical, and fothcoming. Mediocrity in the industry is far more common than in academics, at least partially because of the number of people working in the industry compared to academics.

I would concur to that. In a very recent experience that I had at one of the Ivy League colleges Indian students were fairly confident and comfortable. I would still want them to be a bit more aggressive but I have no doubts in my mind that these students would leave their professional brethens far behind in terms of overall confidence. I do have a question for you Shwetabh. Actually make it two: a) Does your idea of Academia holds true for every college or is it restricted to top colleges? For example I do expect a Cornell/Stanford/UPenn PhD to be confident because he is the best of the breed. However can I expect the same from a University of Arkansas passout? b) Do you think it helps that the top colleges are often in, and around, what are known as "Blue" States in USA? I would always expect an immigrant to flourish in and around Boston, MA than say Jackson, MO. xxx

[DomainK]

I am sorry' date=' but you have a completely incorrect notion of academia. I was not referring to college going students but academic professionals - graduate students, researchers, post doctoral fellows, professors. If you think the atmosphere in academics is any less competitive than the industry you are completely off base. You have to sell yourself, your work, the competition to publish and compete is intense. And yes, even in academics your colleagues are trying to outperform you at every step. The difference lies at least partly in the fact that without an open mind for discussion and criticism you are an absolute nobody in academics whereas in the industry you can still take home a decent pay check and get through your day, week, month, and career without being very critical, analytical, and fothcoming. Mediocrity in the industry is far more common than in academics, at least partially because of the number of people working in the industry compared to academics.[/quote'] Well, I am sorry. But in academia, your performance is mostly bases on your knowledge and Indians are probably more confident in that. But when it comes to performance based work, they find it difficult? In fact, I dont know enough to have a strong opinion on that. I have worked mostly in India. Though I have worked very closely with several American companies and have found that they show a lot of respect if you are good.

[Lurker]

I think the key lies in not trying to become like them in everything.

True, we dont have to mimic them. We have to be our own persons. However the moment we start getting in groups we kind of have a group identity and lose our very own. For the records our record is still better compared to many other ethnic groups. We do not open our own halal meat shops and dont exactly look down on a girl simply because she drinks and smokes and is a single woman.

[goose]

In my experience, the majority of Indians in the global workplace prefer to let their bat do the talking, as it were (in part why we idolize Tendulkar but that's another discussion). We work hard, we do not work smart. To use another cricket analogy, you ain't going to see an Indian in the mould of Andrew Symonds who's going to go out there and grab success by the scruff of it's neck, by hook or by crook. Where's the virtue in that? The flip side to this is that, many Indians are realizing that only a slight albeit key adjustment in approach is required to their already ample skill-set to succeed at the highest level. Hence my workplace is littered with 'comfortable' Indian employees on the one hand, and a good number too in senior management, but not much in between.

[The Outsider]

I would concur to that. In a very recent experience that I had at one of the Ivy League colleges Indian students were fairly confident and comfortable. I would still want them to be a bit more aggressive but I have no doubts in my mind that these students would leave their professional brethens far behind in terms of overall confidence. I do have a question for you Shwetabh. Actually make it two: a) Does your idea of Academia holds true for every college or is it restricted to top colleges? For example I do expect a Cornell/Stanford/UPenn PhD to be confident because he is the best of the breed. However can I expect the same from a University of Arkansas passout? b) Do you think it helps that the top colleges are often in, and around, what are known as "Blue" States in USA? I would always expect an immigrant to flourish in and around Boston, MA than say Jackson, MO. xxx

a) Definitely not - the confidence of having a good degree is immense and it's not only the fact that you have a degree from a good university which makes you confident but the time and training you spent there. What these big name universities provide you is not necessarily better education but a better overall personality build up, which in it's extreme can lead to arrogance as well, but then that's the other end of the spectrum we are talking about. A graduate course in electromagnetic theory is going to be pretty much the same in University of Arkansas and Berkeley, but if a student had one of the leading names of the field as his professor at Berkeley he will take that confidence with him througout his career whenever there is a disucssion on electromagnetic theory whereas the Arkansas guy, unless he wills himself to do it, might feel that perhaps what was taught at Berkeley was better and might shirk away from a discussion with his peer on Wave Guides. But even here, the average American coming out of Arkansas would be a lot bolder and confident than his Indian peer. And that I think has to do with the willingness to assimilate yourself into the local culture and language. I am not pointing towards putting up fake accents, but learning and using a few common phrases, generally trying to keep up to date with the NBA/NFL/Ron Paul/Sarah Pailin etc. Going out for a few drinks in a pub, having the occasional dinner outside at places other than Indian restaturants, spending time at graduate socials for more than free food. All these things add up to becoming more assimilated into the culture and reduces your risk factor of feeling like an outsider. I went out for dinner with a few IT people around a month back - two of them were Indian and had graduated from US universities, one of them from upstate NY and the other one was from some school in Texas. We went to a Japanese place and it was the first time they had come to a Japanese restaurant in 3-4 years of their stay in the US. Yeah, Japanese restaurants are on the expensive side in general and as foreign graduate students money is not always the commodity you flourish in, but surely you could have tried it out once. b) Yeah, it's a pretty big factor as I see it. If you are in some outback where college/university is the only major thing in the city/town the students are not going to be exposed to a lot. That holds true even in India - the average student from Delhi/Bombay even if not from the top college/university is going to be a lot more street smart, confident, and aware than the average student from Lucknow University or worse from Jaunpur. In a small college town you are either going to interact with fellow students/professors or rednecks, but in a big city there is going to be so much more to do, learn and grow from.

[The Outsider]

Well, I am sorry. But in academia, your performance is mostly bases on your knowledge and Indians are probably more confident in that. But when it comes to performance based work, they find it difficult? In fact, I dont know enough to have a strong opinion on that. I have worked mostly in India. Though I have worked very closely with several American companies and have found that they show a lot of respect if you are good.

Not sure what you mean by, "performance based work" but just to expand on my post on academics a very key component to success is your communication skill - written and oral. The ability to make an impact in a seminar, or to write a crisp, clear uncluttered paper are very important skills to have in addition to the obvious being good technically.

[Brainfade]

I have no business posting now - am overwhelmed with work, but this thread broke my restraint. I'll respond to this one little sub-topic and go back to lurking occasionally (self-control-willing)

Going out for a few drinks in a pub, having the occasional dinner outside at places other than Indian restaturants, spending time at graduate socials for more than free food. All these things add up to becoming more assimilated into the culture and reduces your risk factor of feeling like an outsider.

I see how your point holds true in the context of the topic-at-hand. But, I feel that socializing outside of work is overrated and unnecessary. An example is my post-doc adviser and my role model. Friendly, pleasant, polite, articulate - a perfect gentleman, and a borderline genius to boot. He comes in at 9 am. He leaves at 5 pm. He works his tail off during that time. The rest was family-time. When I worked for him - all meetings to discuss strategy, collaborations, grant-writing etc. were formal - in the lab or in his office. Not over lunch, not over drinks, not over golf. When invited to seminars, he gives a brilliant talk and then does the bare minimum socially. It is not that he is shy or lacks conversational skills - he just doesn't go out of his way to mingle. And he is highly successful. It is all about being business-like, but nice at the same time. I just don't get the "let's talk about this over lunch/drinks" culture. Dadgummit, let's talk about it now - in my office or yours. Just get the job done. In the context of this thread - I have seen Indian people here in academia and elsewhere - who go out of their way to mingle in social settings to the point that it is a joke. They suck up, try to curry (pardon the pun) favors, and generally make fools of themselves. They are not the only ones who do it (Americans, Chinese - they all do it), but I tend to notice it among the Indians. And it can be annoying. Like someone said in this thread - let your bat do the talking.

[fineleg]

Like someone said in this thread - let your bat do the talking.

Nice topic by Lurker. Cricaddict - if you are an individual contributor (e.g. senior architect), then just letting the bat do the talking may be sufficient. If you are a manager of a group or a director - then social skills (yes, some of those include going out to lunch or dinner or a "team building trip") are also a factor. Just efficiency and intelligence wont be sufficient. It depends on the role.

[punjabi_khota]

I think the Indians who spend some time in US universities, where there are far more avenues to interact/mingle with Americans and other internationals in a more informal setting (university football/basketball games, various intra-murals, even departmental social events to name a few..) tend to become more well settled/open professionals when they finally go into the workforce. People who come directly from India and start working in US (arguably, most of the IT sector), don't have that advantage, and hence are less likely to mingle.