EnterTheVoid Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Fantastic stuff Viru_Rulez. Hats off padre Just wanted to enquire why the significance of the burqa varies from Islamic countries, all of which follow the teachings of the same prophet. For instance, why in Saudi Arabia, say, are women required to cover from head to toe, whereas in countries such as Turkey / India, the restrictions more leniant ? Muslim models / actresses hardly wear the head scarf, Katrina Kaif one example P.S. Where in India are you based ? My guess, New Delhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Viru, Re: your not following hadith. These hadithes are VERY carefully traced back to the prophet himself and every person who narrates it in the chain is noted. The work that went into it was enormous and there are scholars who do just this, if there even a shred of coubt regarding a hadith it would be noted as 'weak'. Its vital that both the quran and the hadith are taken up as guidelines Re: the headscarf “O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful†[al-Ahzaab 33:59] So it is in the Quran. The veil in itself is sometimes open to debate, the more consverative/strict elements would say its not optional. However wearing loose clothing and covering the head is, as far as i am aware, compulsory People focus on this a lot but there is a lot of emphasis on men to lower their gaze and not look at women with lust/desire too. So its no just women being picked on. My fiancee wears a headscarf to college/etc and I wouldnt want it any other way. If she didnt I would ask her too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikred Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 soods u IZ muslim? which part of india are you from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 You watched Star Wars yet? No answer for you hombre until you do. :P soods u IZ muslim? which part of india are you from? I am, yes. My folks are from the great dump that is Chennai. I only lived there briefly, have been In UK-ville for a little while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr123 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Ok. In simple words, Quran is one of the 5 holy books which was passed on to humanity by Allah through the holy prophets. The 5 books also include Bible and Torah (Jewish holy book I suppose). But Quran is the last of the 5 books and Allah told people to follow it over the other 4. Jesus Christ, Moses, Abraham etc. are all our prophets too. Torah was passed through Moses (I am not sure), Bible was through Jesus Christ and Quran was through Prophet Mohammad. So, these are direct guidance of Allah or God. On the other hand, Hadiths dont have much validity IMO as they were simply instructions etc. from Prophets Mohammad. And Hadiths were actually orally passed on through generations and it was written hundreds of years later after Prophet Mohammad's death. So, the instructions and other information could have been grossly misinterpreted through that long period of time. And Allah has not told us to follow any of the Hadiths. So, there is no basis. These Shariyat law etc. were never made or advised by Allah and so all these are man-made things. So, all the customs were simply taken by people of that age and has no proper instructions from God and hence, I dont accept those as the ultimate guidance. None of the members of my family has ever bought a niqab/hijab/burqa or ever worn it so there is no question of even asking them to wear it leave apart forcing it. In fact, we always believe that women are equal to men and all the female members in my family enjoy equal rights and have complete freedom to lead an independent life. Sry Viru by name 4 books are mentioned in Quran The TOURAAT (OLD TESTAMENT) given to Hazrat MOOSA -Moses (AS), ZABOOR (PSALMS) given to Hazrat DAWOOD - David (AS),The INJEEL -Bible (NEW TESTAMENT)given to Hazrat ESA - Jeasus(Alayhis-Salaam) and The HOLY QURAN. btw... i think u need to get ur facts right , Hadith are important as Quran because without hadith its difficult to understand Quran . Quran says perform Prayer , hadith shows u the way .. Quran tells u to fast , hadeeth gives u information on how to fast , when shud the fast beings when to break . So in short QUran is the commandment and hadith shows u how to follow the commandments... The case of forcing some1 to wear hijab... no one is compled to follow any of the Islamic laws . I don't deny that some indiviuals they try to force it . At my home my wife and Sister they are highly educated but they wear scarf no one told them neither forced them. Why dont some one ask a muslim women how she feels... ask a muslim women who wear the hijab, ask those who have come up in life and still wear hijab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak_Fan_4_Eva Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Sooda and Mhr123 clarified it perfectly. Hats off to them:hatsoff: Dunno who told Viru there are 5 Holy books o_O? Islam teaches us persuasion,not coercion. There`s the answer to force someone on wearing the hijab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Another good point is, as mhr says, Im not sure many people appreciate that probably 90% of muslim women who wear the scarf and even the veil do so out of choice and not because theyve been forced by their father/husband etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punjabi_khota Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Another good point is' date=' as mhr says, Im not sure many people appreciate that [b']probably 90% of muslim women who wear the scarf and even the veil do so out of choice and not because theyve been forced by their father/husband etc. And you know that how ? :hmmmm2: I can give any number and you will have nothing but anecdotes to counter my argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 The thread is pretty borderline on ICF's no religious discussions policy - any transgressions which have the potential to flare up and it will be locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViruRulez Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Fantastic stuff Viru_Rulez. Hats off padre Just wanted to enquire why the significance of the burqa varies from Islamic countries, all of which follow the teachings of the same prophet. For instance, why in Saudi Arabia, say, are women required to cover from head to toe, whereas in countries such as Turkey / India, the restrictions more leniant ? Muslim models / actresses hardly wear the head scarf, Katrina Kaif one example P.S. Where in India are you based ? My guess, New Delhi In Saudi Arabi or in any Islamic country too, it is not compulsory to cover the head. It is the personal choice of the person mostly. Katrina Kaif or Sania Mirza does not feel the need to wear it and hence does not wear it. It does not suit their social lifestyle maybe as they are sportsperson, celebrities etc. and hence hijab does not make sense. But in some cases, burqa or veil etc. is also associated to social trends etc. For example, if a girl wears a mini-skirt or even a shirt-pant in rural areas, then people might look oddly at her. Even in India, you would find more persons wearing Sari, Salwaar etc. rather than pants or minis because it is simply social norms. The girls are not forbidden in India too but it is just that it does not work well in those societies. Similar is the case with burqa where people wear it as per their choice. Viru, Re: your not following hadith. These hadithes are VERY carefully traced back to the prophet himself and every person who narrates it in the chain is noted. The work that went into it was enormous and there are scholars who do just this, if there even a shred of coubt regarding a hadith it would be noted as 'weak'. Its vital that both the quran and the hadith are taken up as guidelines Re: the headscarf “O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-Ahzaab 33:59] So it is in the Quran. The veil in itself is sometimes open to debate, the more consverative/strict elements would say its not optional. However wearing loose clothing and covering the head is, as far as i am aware, compulsory People focus on this a lot but there is a lot of emphasis on men to lower their gaze and not look at women with lust/desire too. So its no just women being picked on. My fiancee wears a headscarf to college/etc and I wouldnt want it any other way. If she didnt I would ask her too. Sry Viru by name 4 books are mentioned in Quran The TOURAAT (OLD TESTAMENT) given to Hazrat MOOSA -Moses (AS), ZABOOR (PSALMS) given to Hazrat DAWOOD - David (AS),The INJEEL -Bible (NEW TESTAMENT)given to Hazrat ESA - Jeasus(Alayhis-Salaam) and The HOLY QURAN. btw... i think u need to get ur facts right , Hadith are important as Quran because without hadith its difficult to understand Quran . Quran says perform Prayer , hadith shows u the way .. Quran tells u to fast , hadeeth gives u information on how to fast , when shud the fast beings when to break . So in short QUran is the commandment and hadith shows u how to follow the commandments... The case of forcing some1 to wear hijab... no one is compled to follow any of the Islamic laws . I don't deny that some indiviuals they try to force it . At my home my wife and Sister they are highly educated but they wear scarf no one told them neither forced them. Why dont some one ask a muslim women how she feels... ask a muslim women who wear the hijab, ask those who have come up in life and still wear hijab. Sooda and Mhr123 clarified it perfectly. Hats off to them:hatsoff: Dunno who told Viru there are 5 Holy books o_O? Islam teaches us persuasion,not coercion. There`s the answer to force someone on wearing the hijab Another good point is' date=' as mhr says, Im not sure many people appreciate that probably 90% of muslim women who wear the scarf and even the veil do so out of choice and not because theyve been forced by their father/husband etc.[/quote'] I am not so religious and personally speaking I might be wrong in some aspects. So, may be I am wrong about the no of holy books etc. But I still firmly believe that we should acknowledge the Quran as the ultimate guiding book rather than Hadiths. The Hadiths have also condtradicted each other on several occasions and hence, personally I am not convinced on many things. At the most it is sunnat and not faraz to follow it IMO. Regarding wearing veils or headscarf, I have never had anybody in my family wear it. My mom, sister etc. have never ever worn burqa or headscarf in their whole life. As Soods mentioned it, it is an individual choice of the women and my mom and sister does not like it much. I have lived in cities throughout my life and hence, maybe sister and mom never wore it because it did not suit the city life. Anyways, as mentioned previously it is their personal life. Regarding whether I would prefer them wearing, then I would say no. The reason is because if they wear a burqa they might have an inferiority complex and feel as if they are not equal in society. But I am a firm believer of equality of both sexes and in their freedom and choice. I have always supported democracy because every person should have complete independence. I have had several debates with religious scholars of Muslims, Hindus, Christians and other religions over many things. Whenever I judge anything, I dont view it from the prospect of a Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Sikh, Buddhist or any other religion. I always try to make my judgments from an unbiased point and a peaceful and modern outlook. Whatever is right is right and what is wrong is wrong according to me and I have never cared if it goes against the tenets of any religion. I have spoken against Hindu religious leaders and parents of my Hindu friends too saying how bad the caste system is. I tell them on their face and debate over it as I dont believe in inequality. Similarly, I have spoken against purdah system and other issues with Muslim scholars and other friends and relatives. I believe that religions have to change as per the times because if you think unbiasedly and logically then the things which were applicable thousands of years ago are not applicable right now. And the last guidance etc. about Islam was at 7th century AD and social life, facts and amenities are not comparable to it in the present era. Prophet Mohammad said about the importance of studies saying to gain knowledge you should go as far as China. But in today's world, China is just a few hours hours on the plane and so it is not difficult. So, facts or sayings at that time does not make complete sense in the modern world. The world has changed completely and so there also needs to be gradual change in religious customs accordingly. I am not saying about Muslim, Hindu, Christian or any specific religion but every religion has to get accustomed to the time and social structures. Anyways, I take every decision or judgment from unbiased and neutral perspective where logic and common sense is more important than any religious traditions or customs. I want world peace and good for all humans and that is the most important thing for me. And everybody should enjoy complete freedom till the time it is acceptable in the social structure. If I start going into religious discussions, then I can give a lot of points in every religion (more so Islam as I know it better) which cannot be considered right if we start following word by word. There is need of mental change of people while following the religions and that is important as the world has changed a lot and everything cannot be the exactly the same. And it is with every religion and not only with Islam, Hinduism, Christianity or any other religion. This would go on a long conversation if we go into depth. I iz less religious (though my dad, mom and sister are a lot more religious than me) and so I may be wrong in Islamic facts often but my logic would not deceive me most of the time. :icflove: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 So it is in the Quran. The veil in itself is sometimes open to debate, the more consverative/strict elements would say its not optional. However wearing loose clothing and covering the head is, as far as i am aware, compulsory People focus on this a lot but there is a lot of emphasis on men to lower their gaze and not look at women with lust/desire too. So its no just women being picked on. My fiancee wears a headscarf to college/etc and I wouldnt want it any other way. If she didnt I would ask her too. Do you wear the taqiyah/tagiyah (skull cap worn by muslim men) always? Will you wear it all the time (even to work) if she asks you to? [honest question, no offence meant] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 ^That isnt in the Quran. Not actually commanded to do so by God. So I would'nt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desi Cartman Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 ok .. question #2. Whats the difference between Shia and Sunni .. and what do they fight over .. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr123 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 ok .. question #2. Whats the difference between Shia and Sunni .. and what do they fight over .. ? They are plenty @ Desi Paji... Core Differences are : 1) Sunnis follow the Khulfa Rashidun "rightly-guided Caliphs", who were the first four caliphs after the death of Muhammad: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman Ibn Affan, and Ali. Shia don't accept the first three caliphs and believe that Alī is the second-most divinely inspired man (after Prophet). 2) Shia beleives spiritual qualities have been granted not only to the Prophet Muhammad but also to Haz Alī and the 11 imams. There are other major issues and i dont think this forum allows neither time permits to point out all of them... Why do Shia and Sunni fight : Sometimes Shia goes over board they use a lot of abusive languages on the first 3 chalips which sparks anger , when things goes beyond control they try to kill each other. Thats the main reason you find common riots between Shia and Sunni when they are staying together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooda Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 And you know that how ? :hmmmm2: I can give any number and you will have nothing but anecdotes to counter my argument. Fair point. And 90% maybe an exaggeration. But in the UK at least, definitely a majority do so by choice and not compulsion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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