For tests : Raina or Kohli?

[Gunner_Mania]

I'm not talking about this series or the Kolkata match for heavens sake! I'm talking about a situation which we would face very soon and a trailor of that in this series. If selectors won't work with a vision for the upcoming transition, Indian team will go back to what it was in early 90s. I hope this time I'm clear.

Look, the selectors are likely to pick the guy who is in form at the time when an opening occurs in the middle order. We all know who the contenders are for middle order positions but when there is little to choose from between them the selectors are likely to look at recent form rather than anything else. So, give this a rest.

[shubham45]

Raina hasn't predicted any earthquake or something in test level that he should be given an opportunity in test team of India. Virat Kohli, Rohit Sharma are far superior batsman then him in test circuit .Infact there is a big list of players. Look at Dinesh Karthik. He his playing some big knocks, yet sitting out and not even in selectors wishlist.

kaif shud b dere in d side

[Chandan]

Look' date=' the selectors are likely to pick the guy who is in form at the time when an opening occurs in the middle order. We all know who the contenders are for middle order positions but when there is little to choose from between them the selectors are likely to look at recent form rather than anything else. So, give this a rest.[/quote'] Recent form? So what has been Raina's recent form in the longer format? How many tons has he slammed? Why was Manish Pandey not preferred to him as he was highest run getter in Ranji trophy, if recent form is only what selectors will be looking at? And who are the contenders for the 4 MO slot according to you and for which position, who'll be given chance on recent form? And give what a rest? We come here on this forum to have a discussion, not to give them a rest!

[Karan114]

Kohli or Raina are not going to get a look-in unless something drastic happens between now and the start of the second test match.

Well if you believe this report, then there is a chance Raina is going to be making his Test debut in two days time (not confirmed, but by no means is it a given that he will be left out of the final XI): http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-search-for-right-answer/578918/0 Frankly it is ridiculous to think of giving a batsman whose ability in the longer form of the game is highly questionable a Test debut in such a crucial match against a strong attack just because of the alleged benefit of his left-handedness to counter Harris (if they are really getting into these specifics, why not consider his abysmal technique against short pitched bowling and the presence of Morkel and Steyn in the SA attack?). Really, if they are so desperate for that sort of thing, why not bring in Nayar who just slammed a hundred against the SA spinners in the tour game and has a better FC record anyways?

[teacup]

Recent form? So what has been Raina's recent form in the longer format? How many tons has he slammed? Why was Manish Pandey not preferred to him as he was highest run getter in Ranji trophy, if recent form is only what selectors will be looking at? And who are the contenders for the 4 MO slot according to you and for which position, who'll be given chance on recent form? And give what a rest? We come here on this forum to have a discussion, not to give them a rest!

Dude, you first decide if you are talking of this series or just generally about filling MO positions when the seniors retire. My response was to your post saying that it is the latter. I have already mentioned the top contenders in my earlier post. Raina is a talented batsman and he has scored well in pressure situations against top teams like Australia in the recent past so the selectors were not wrong in picking him. Of course, they would have also been right in picking Kohli. You might argue ODI performances don't matter but it does, unlike T20s. Manish Pandey has had a brilliant domestic season but it would be better to try him out in the ODIs before considering him as top contender for test matches. Instead of going in circles on this discussion, it would be better to come back to it when there is really an opening for the top contenders in test matches.

[Chandan]

Dude, you first decide if you are talking of this series or just generally about filling MO positions when the seniors retire. My response was to your post saying that it is the latter. I have already mentioned the top contenders in my earlier post. Raina is a talented batsman and he has scored well in pressure situations against top teams like Australia in the recent past so the selectors were not wrong in picking him. Of course, they would have also been right in picking Kohli. You might argue ODI performances don't matter but it does, unlike T20s. Manish Pandey has had a brilliant domestic season but it would be better to try him out in the ODIs before considering him as top contender for test matches. Instead of going in circles on this discussion, it would be better to come back to it when there is really an opening for the top contenders in test matches.

I do not agree at all. ODIs matter zilch as far as test performance is concerned because both are completely different and require different set of skills both from bowlers and batsmen. I think you and youngindia were going in circles in the discussion. Others have been quite clear. The Outsider layed out the criteria for test selection and then has evaluated both the players in discussion. And I agree with him apart from having ODIs too as one of the criteria. If you disagree, you can lay out your critera and evaluate both the players accordingly. None of the forummers who diagreed with me or Outsider have gone and done that. So who is going in circles?

[teacup]

Look' date=' the selectors are likely to pick the guy who is in form at the time when an opening occurs in the middle order. We all know who the contenders are for middle order positions but when there is little to choose from between them the selectors are likely to look at recent form rather than anything else. So, give this a rest.[/quote'] This comment was posted by me but why is it now showing under kpsrinivasan? What is the MOD trying to do here?

[teacup]

I do not agree at all. ODIs matter zilch as far as test performance is concerned because both are completely different and require different set of skills both from bowlers and batsmen. I think you and youngindia were going in circles in the discussion. Others have been quite clear. The Outsider layed out the criteria for test selection and then has evaluated both the players in discussion. And I agree with him apart from having ODIs too as one of the criteria. If you disagree, you can lay out your critera and evaluate both the players accordingly. None of the forummers who diagreed with me or Outsider have gone and done that. So who is going in circles?

Why don't you scan the thread again and see how many comments I have posted on this topic? I had only one and that was to present Kohli's statistics against top teams. I did not get into the discussion on who is better at all.

[Chandan]

Why don't you scan the thread again and see how many comments I have posted on this topic? I had only one and that was to present Kohli's statistics against top teams. I did not get into the discussion on who is better at all.

Kohli's stats against top team in the longer format? There has just been one such match IMO.

Err...his scores against Australia and Pakistan' date=' the only two teams with good pace bowling that he has faced, are 30, 10, 16. I would tone down the hyperbole until he proves himself against SA, Aus or at least Pak.[/quote']

This discussion is moot. Badri' date=' Kohli, Raina, Rohit, Pujara or whoever it is all have potential to come good in Tests. Right now though the biggest battle is between Yuvraj and Murali Vijay for the only real middle-order slot that is open. Vijay had a chance to make it his own in Nagpur but fell short of doing it. He has another chance in Kolkata in one of the most crucial Test Matches in Indian history the outcome of which will determine whether we finish the season as the No.1 Test team in the world for the first time or not. If he fails, he will give Yuvraj another lease of life as the selectors are less likely to replace Yuvraj with another batsman who does not convert good starts into big scores irrespective of how assured he looks when he bats.[/quote']

This series has only one more match left. Vijay and Badri are the only ones who will get a chance. Kohli or Raina are not going to get a look-in unless something drastic happens between now and the start of the second test match.

Look' date=' the selectors are likely to pick the guy who is in form at the time when an opening occurs in the middle order. We all know who the contenders are for middle order positions but when there is little to choose from between them the selectors are likely to look at recent form rather than anything else. So, give this a rest.[/quote']

Dude, you first decide if you are talking of this series or just generally about filling MO positions when the seniors retire. My response was to your post saying that it is the latter. I have already mentioned the top contenders in my earlier post. Raina is a talented batsman and he has scored well in pressure situations against top teams like Australia in the recent past so the selectors were not wrong in picking him. Of course, they would have also been right in picking Kohli. You might argue ODI performances don't matter but it does, unlike T20s. Manish Pandey has had a brilliant domestic season but it would be better to try him out in the ODIs before considering him as top contender for test matches. Instead of going in circles on this discussion, it would be better to come back to it when there is really an opening for the top contenders in test matches.

So you thinks are ODIs are good enough indication for successful test career? Wonder what happened to Bevan, Jadeja et al! Anyway, if this is your point of discussion, then I don't agree with you. As simple.

[teacup]

I do not agree at all. ODIs matter zilch as far as test performance is concerned because both are completely different and require different set of skills both from bowlers and batsmen. I think you and youngindia were going in circles in the discussion. Others have been quite clear. The Outsider layed out the criteria for test selection and then has evaluated both the players in discussion. And I agree with him apart from having ODIs too as one of the criteria. If you disagree, you can lay out your critera and evaluate both the players accordingly. None of the forummers who diagreed with me or Outsider have gone and done that. So who is going in circles?

ODI performances do matter because the format, though limited, does allow a batsman to build an innings in situations where his temperament is tested and an opportunity to play against most of the same players he would play against when he gets the test cap.

[youngindia]

It's a waste of time arguing with you because you pay little heed to First Class records against good bowling attacks and performance in the longer version for selection in test matches..

this is the criteria that works best more or less... 1. The players should be highly talented to be a matchwinner against the best in the world. 2. he should have gone through years of (atleast 4-5) seasoning in one day cricket, A tours and FC cricket. for the reason , even the most talented player need nurturing and maturity to succeed.But its up to the selector to make a call whether a player has made himself reasonably ready for inetrnational cricket" by working on his game I am discounting kohli's records bgecause it does not reflect the fact he is not fully mature. I discount the records of most u25 players for this reason though indivdual specific cases arise.

Badrinath has had a lot of "seasoning" with oregano, salt, and pepper for years in domestic cricket so according to your logic he should be able to strike it huge at test level immediately, I guess?

but i have more confidence in him at the moment than the young tyros.The youngsters can replace him once they are mature enough.

Jaffer also had a lot of "seasoning" - look what came of him.

there were not better alternatives. he did a fair job against all teams except aus/sa.

Heck, Yuvraj had close to a decade of "seasoning" with all the condiments available in the world and hasn't been able to hack it in tests yet.

he has all the confidence in the world to score a test hundred than the youngsters who have not done it before.

A strong First Class record is a must for success in tests. History is proof of it.

Players have been often selected without great FC records on the basis of talent. All time greats like viv richards and shane warne are there.

here are a lot of other factors to consider as well, but selecting someone with 6 First Class centuries in 50+ matches, all against ordinary bowling is just not the way to select a test batsman

richards was selected on way less. michael clarke was selected for a 37 FC average when batsmen like hodge were toiling inthe domestics. That's your uninformed notion. talent+ a reasonably seasoned game would do.

[youngindia]

Progress made in which game? Otherwise all you are doing is groping in dark and leaving things to one person's personal opinion.

in the player's batting aspects if he is a batsman :haha:. If the player is talented , next you see if he is reasonably mature enough. or pick the relatively "more mature" one. when i talk about maturity, its both about the player's game and also his mental aspect. without years of seasoning, this won't happen realistically. The more immature the player is , steyn and co will have a free and easier ride. hence Maturity(relative to one another) is a important factor as well. All this talk about kohli,pujara and pandey are ridiculous for this reason. with little or no international experience and no experience of having faced world class attacks, they are lambs thrown to t he lions. they have go thru some seasoning through onedaycricket and A tours. few years down the line, i will back their inclusion when they are 25-27. aussie btasmen often make their debuts at 29-31 ,remember.there is a reason behind it. a once in ageenration player like sachin or lara can be a exception.

[spectre]

Chandan - you are very good at first class cricket knowledge as well hence simple question, as i dont know this - How many years of domestic cricket did Sachin go through before he made his debut or what his A tours/BP XI records were before his test debut seriously its a honest question, just to counter your argument - for years of FC seasoning and A tour records for a berth @ test team

[achilles]

Raina is a better choice than Kohli. Kohli is very young and still has a lot of things to learn before being introduced to the longest format of the international game.

[graphic23]

IMO, there's no discussion to be had if you are unable to grasp that you need very good first class records to make it to the test team. While Kohli may have lesser experience, Raina's F/C record is very mediocre, and his technique, as it is, is not very good - particularly against pacemen who're at the top of their form. Kohli has scored against the best test attack (of the time) in a match, and scored a century. And what does the hell does "seasoning" mean anyway? When you're in very good form, have been correcting your mistakes, and have been doing well against good teams in tricky pitches, you need to be in the team ahead of everyone who doesn't have those criteria matched. BTW, comparing the likes of Richards, Warne, Tendulkar, Dravid to these budding cricketers is plain ignorance.

[achilles]

Comparisons to legends are wrong. Its almost killed Irfan Pathan and many others like him.

[Mr. Wicket]

Raina is a better choice than Kohli. Kohli is very young and still has a lot of things to learn before being introduced to the longest format of the international game.

Indeed. He needs more seasoning.

[vvvslaxman]

yea seasoning 1 tbspoon chillie powder 1 kg Kohli 1 tpspoon ginger garlic paste 1 tbspoon coriander powder. :icflove:

[Clarke]

Bhogle has some logic to consider for the Raina supporters: As a one-day batsman, he earns his place in the side on the weight of performance. But in any game longer than a day, those performances start to get thinner. In domestic cricket, players are told to knock the selectors' door down with sheer numbers. Raina's was, at best, a feeble knock. He should eat his cake very quickly for fear that it was delivered to the wrong address! In seven first-class innings this season he has scored 292 runs at 41.71, with no century. In a year of heavy run-getting, those are ordinary numbers and he has been comfortably out-batted by many peers. Virat Kohli averages 86 from seven innings with 138 runs more; Cheteshwar Pujara has 741 from 10 innings at 82.33; and Manish Pandey has 882 from 16 innings at 59 with four centuries. And these are stats of only middle-order players. Abhinav Mukund, Ajinkya Rahane and Patel have pretty impressive numbers as well. Experience might have been a factor. Raina has played a lot of international cricket and there is something to be said about feeling comfortable in that environment. In which case Kohli, who has shown great maturity at the crease, should have got the nod. And while Raina is one of India's cleanest strikers and a good finisher in a limited-overs game, his relationship with the short-pitched ball is marked by discomfort. If the bowler is at the top of his run, Raina will not look forward to a bouncer from him. Indeed, part of the reason India had to go back to Dravid for the Champions Trophy was that the new generation, the Rainas and the Rohits, found the short ball a little too hot to handle. It is also a length the South African bowlers don't mind. http://www.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/447858.html

[ludhianvi]

How many of you thought Sehwag would be a better Test player when he made his debut in ODIs? Atleast give these guys a chance to perform before writing them off.