Was Dennis Lillee really that great?

[The Outsider]

Opinions of experts and players are the least reliable mostly because when it comes to things like rating all time greats and such there is invariably a large element of being gracious and not comming out as a sore loser aspect involved. And many times these experts give contradictory opinions.

Cardus, Fingelton, Guha - those are some of the finest writers I've read in any area, let alone cricket. The attention to detail present in their work cannot be made up. There were other independent observers as well who could have called them out for lying and fabricating things, but there is near universal acclaim for their journalism. They were of a different breed than the Kamran Abassis of cricinfo, to put it mildly. As a classic example of correlating reality with writings you can choose Rahul Bhattacharya's Pundits from Pakistan. You have followed and watched that series, and if you read the book you will be hard pressed to find any gross exaggerations, factually incorrect statements, or misinformed opinions. You might argue that he did not do it because of TV coverage, but remember even in those days there were people to call out dishonest journalism. The very reason that only a select few reached that status.

[vvvslaxman]

Cardus, Fingelton, Guha - those are some of the finest writers I've read in any area, let alone cricket. The attention to detail present in their work cannot be made up. There were other independent observers as well who could have called them out for lying and fabricating things, but there is near universal acclaim for their journalism. They were of a different breed than the Kamran Abassis of cricinfo, to put it mildly. As a classic example of correlating reality with writings you can choose Rahul Bhattacharya's Pundits from Pakistan. You have followed and watched that series, and if you read the book you will be hard pressed to find any gross exaggerations, factually incorrect statements, or misinformed opinions. You might argue that he did not do it because of TV coverage, but remember even in those days there were people to call out dishonest journalism. The very reason that only a select few reached that status.

I have long list of cricket fans who are over 50 years old. Friend's dad, uncle, so many elderly fans.SOme of them far more intuitive than an average cricket fan you find these days. We had tons of sportstars archive to read. You cannot find those things anywhere. There are so many reliable sources i have access to. If you ask me cricinfo stat should be just used as supplement not main. I can prove anyone a mediocre player purely based on stats. Kapil averages 31 in Tests with bat. But anyone who watched him grow in his career would know he is a far better batsman than that.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[King]

Lillee was a terrific bowler but was he the greatest hell no... Malcom Marshall in my opinion was truly great. Hadlee's not far ahead. McGrath may not be liked by the old timers but he's proved he could bowl on any wicket around the world and rose up to the occasion every time. Ashes series', last frontier in India, several world cups and so forth. McGrath is undersold by a lot but I do believe being a fast bowler and to be the best for over a decade is truly remarkable. Personally I preferred to watch Hadlee/Akram over any fast bowlers given their skills but Marshall/McGrath are probably the two greats.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest BossBhai]

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[King]

Waqar Younis of the 1991-1994 vintage ' date=' Curtley Ambrose and Allan Donald were truly mesmerising from purely a watching perspective ...[/quote'] Yup got to agree, used to give up everything to watch the duo of Waqar/Wasim, Ambrose/Walsh and certainly Allan Donald.

[vvvslaxman]

My personal favorite is Thirunavakarasu Kumaran. Very under-rated bowler.

[The Outsider]

Even the Rahul Bhattacharyas make mistakes and are not fallible .... He wrote of Boss circa 2007 (IIRC) in a scathing article only to eat a humble pie a few months later ... Atleast he had the moral fortitude to own up unlike the Manjrekars the Sunnys and the Chappels whos opinion is being taken by some here as gospel.

Huh? Completely irrelevant. Factual description and analytical assessment of an event is completely different from making a prediction about the future of a player. It's cricket and it's commonsense that no one can do that. Rahul might have got Tendulkar's future in the game wrong, but you would be hard pressed to find any factual inconsistencies or gross exaggerations in his work, which is the topic of discussion.

The bottom line is there is no substitute for making your own judgements based on first hand experience ... after that stats are the only thing that will tell you the cold story. Yes you need to factor in conditions,eras and other things that go under "common-knowledge" but to solely base your opinions on what Sunny says about Lillee is very flawed in my opinion. In fact I dont even know if Sunny rates Lillee over Marshall given the infamous near walk out after Lillee's antics at the MCG circa 1981.

Stats can even then be used only as a support system. The main information has to come from unbiased and respected opinions. It just makes sense - descriptions aiding the numbers provide the complete picture. But since we fundamentally disagree on it, I'll leave you with just your cold numbers meanwhile I'll have fun of both the worlds and form an informed opinion.

[vvvslaxman]

Going by stats Steyn is the greatest fast bowler ever to play. He averages 20 in India. His strike the second best in history. He only averages 23. Mind you he plays in an era where pitches are dead flat. Every tom, dick and harry average 50 in this era. So stats can be manipulated anyway we want.

[putrevus]

I have long list of cricket fans who are over 50 years old. Friend's dad' date=' uncle, so many elderly fans.SOme of them far more intuitive than an average cricket fan you find these days. We had tons of sportstars archive to read. You cannot find those things anywhere. There are so many reliable sources i have access to. If you ask me cricinfo stat should be just used as supplement not main. I can prove anyone a mediocre player purely based on stats. Kapil averages 31 in Tests with bat. But anyone who watched him grow in his career would know he is a far better batsman than that.[/quote'] Sometimes Stats dont tell the whole story if you look the centuries which Kapil made and Imran made,most of Imran centuries were like add on centuries when they already had one of more tons already scored by other batsmen. Imran average is boosted by not outs and scored more runs towards end of his career when he no longer was potent force with the ball. Thats why as all rounders I rate Ian Botham and Kapil dev more than Imran most of kapil dev big scores came when India really needed them and top order failed or didnt score enough. Botham also scored his runs when his team was down was even better batsman than kapil, I saw one interview in which Hadlee was saying Imran was better all rounder among the four Botham was very disappointed with assertion.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest BossBhai]

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[vvvslaxman]

Longevity is a very imp factor here. Steyns career is still in the first stage maybe just into the 2nd stage ... once he has ateast about 70-80 tests behind him we can start ranking him over others.

if you go by longevity Mcgrath leaves everyone to the dust. (Whole list of Marshall, Holding.. etc) He also played in an era where batting was much easier.

[Watson87]

I have never watched him play, but heard from my uncle that he was one of the fastest bowlers ever. All I can say is Sir Aggy Rocks.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Mr. Wicket]

Yup, not to mention that Cardus did tend to overromanticize many aspects of the game. But a lot of other cricket writers should not be tarred with the same brush, guys like Jack Fingleton, Richie Benaud (whose books from the late 50s/early 60s are superb reading), John Arlott and others were superb writers who didn't bother with over romanticism and produced a lot of writing on the game that offers a ton of insight and detail.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Mr. Wicket]

Unfair! Unfair! There are so many overhyped, overglorified English (or South African :D) players that have been lauded to infinity by the Pommy press and then underwhelmed at the international level. Mark Ramprakash? Graeme Hick? Mike Atherton? Nasser Hussain? Ian Bell? Alastair Cook? Kevin Pietersen (a competitor to Bradman who averages below 50 )? Michael Vaughan? And that's not even getting into the bowlers. (Steve "Curtly Ambrose II" Harmison, anyone?)