Guilty beyond doubt...

[King]

Majority are convinced about the involvement of certain Pakistani players but there could still be some doubt about some of the players' involvement. The person that is in the police custody is the biggest evidence and secondly the currencies that were found in players' room. The News of the world agency will have obviously noted down the currency numbers and the same currency if was found in the players' room then it is proved beyond doubt the players were involved. It's pretty simple really, don't reckon this case will go as long as the one that did in the 90s. The news is that NOTW pretty much planned this immaculately with currencies ending up with the players. It has even been suggested in some of the articles the cops were involved at all times with the NOTW reporters. Pakistan were lucky to have ECB hosting their home games and now it would be pretty hard for other cricket boards to host them or play them in a neutral venue. I'd hope NZ Cricket cancel Pakistan's tour this summer. People may just not turn up at the grounds as they wouldn't know which game is fixed and which one isn't. Sadly there must be a lot of young lads working towards playing for Pakistan but this incident will back track their development as PCB will struggle to get other cricket boards to schedule games against them.

[Sachinism]

What happens if the currencies handed over by NOTW are not found with the players? Does the case collapse?

[kabira]

How long does it take to match the currency?? Should be done by now??

[Mamu]

Majority are convinced about the involvement of certain Pakistani players but there could still be some doubt about some of the players' involvement. The person that is in the police custody is the biggest evidence and secondly the currencies that were found in players' room. The News of the world agency will have obviously noted down the currency numbers and the same currency if was found in the players' room then it is proved beyond doubt the players were involved. It's pretty simple really, don't reckon this case will go as long as the one that did in the 90s. The news is that NOTW pretty much planned this immaculately with currencies ending up with the players. It has even been suggested in some of the articles the cops were involved at all times with the NOTW reporters. Pakistan were lucky to have ECB hosting their home games and now it would be pretty hard for other cricket boards to host them or play them in a neutral venue. I'd hope NZ Cricket cancel Pakistan's tour this summer. People may just not turn up at the grounds as they wouldn't know which game is fixed and which one isn't. Sadly there must be a lot of young lads working towards playing for Pakistan but this incident will back track their development as PCB will struggle to get other cricket boards to schedule games against them.

King the more and more I read your posts -- i feel you are extremely naive ! If I am a bookie, I would never transfer the same cash to players -- for the reason you mentioned. You will have to think the crooked minded bookie -- is surely thinking on those lines. NOTW could not possibly have said - "You transfer the same cash to players". I would really laugh my ass off if the bookie indeed did that -- after NOTW said that. That would be the highlight of this whole episode! But then again -- we are talking about a Paki Bookie, wouldnt be surprised if even he is dumb :-)

[zen]

King the more and more I read your posts -- i feel you are extremely naive ! If I am a bookie, I would never transfer the same cash to players -- for the reason you mentioned. You will have to think the crooked minded bookie -- is surely thinking on those lines. But then again -- we are talking about a Paki Bookie, wouldnt be surprised if even he is dumb :-)

[kabira]

King the more and more I read your posts -- i feel you are extremely naive ! If I am a bookie, I would never transfer the same cash to players -- for the reason you mentioned. You will have to think the crooked minded bookie -- is surely thinking on those lines. NOTW could not possibly have said - "You transfer the same cash to players". I would really laugh my ass off if the bookie indeed did that -- after NOTW said that. That would be the highlight of this whole episode! But then again -- we are talking about a Paki Bookie, wouldnt be surprised if even he is dumb :-)

You never know, its cash business, he is not going to go home and find another set of notes and then give it to the players.

[Ram]

where is the doubt? If there was any, it was all gone when Salman Butt attended the post match press conference after the end of the match. That was the ideal opportunity for him to come out clean and declare that 'I am innocent, I have been charged wrongly, I completely distance, first myself, and then my team, from these allegations. We are looking forward to clearing our name at the end of this..' But there he was, looking like a kid caught trying to steal candies, fumbling and bumbling and trying to side-step all the questions related to the controversy.

[Sachinism]

where is the doubt? If there was any, it was all gone when Salman Butt attended the post match press conference after the end of the match. That was the ideal opportunity for him to come out clean and declare that 'I am innocent, I have been charged wrongly, I completely distance, first myself, and then my team, from these allegations. We are looking forward to clearing our name at the end of this..' But there he was, looking like a kid caught trying to steal candies, fumbling and bumbling and trying to side-step all the questions related to the controversy.

THIS. Butt had the opportunity to say he's being wrongly accused, he's not involved in any way, but he didn't

[DomainK]

where is the doubt? If there was any, it was all gone when Salman Butt attended the post match press conference after the end of the match. That was the ideal opportunity for him to come out clean and declare that 'I am innocent, I have been charged wrongly, I completely distance, first myself, and then my team, from these allegations. We are looking forward to clearing our name at the end of this..' But there he was, looking like a kid caught trying to steal candies, fumbling and bumbling and trying to side-step all the questions related to the controversy.

Fully agree with that. I had expected a very angry response from the players and the management furiously claiming innocence and threatening with lawsuits. But they seem to be scared and are trying to be diplomatic in their replies. They are guilty. Just listen to Rameez commenting on Butt's response. He flatly calls him a liar and the response a joke.

[Fontaine]

1. The guy in custody took money for three no balls that HAPPENED EXACTLY as he predicted. That's pretty damning evidence right there plus Butt taking to Aamir directly before his 2nd no ball. 2. The guy was seen, filmed handing over a jacket that supposedly contained 10,000 pounds to Wahib Riaz so the numbers from those notes would have to match. 3. Then there's the 140,000 pounds that, if the money is indeed found in the player's rooms then it's another damning bit of evidence. 4. The man in custody has to be charged within 24 hours or released. There's no question about his guilt as the video tape showed. The question is whether the players indeed took the bribes to cheat. That could take weeks to determine because the charges aren't against the players so it's up to the ICC and PCB to investigate and prosecute. Either way, it doesn't change what I believe. When you include ONE cheat who got away with being a two time doper and drug user in Asif then the entire team is tainted.

[Ram]

What happens if the currencies handed over by NOTW are not found with the players? Does the case collapse?

Well, match fixing allegations are notoriously difficult to prove, because there is no way to prove, beyond doubt that the 'supoosed' event could not have happened otherwise. For example, Aamir could well have inadvertently bowled that no ball (Though he did himself no favors by over-stepping by a light year ) So here's what the police will be looking for, to indite the players; 1) Confession from the dude Mazhar Majeed - When he met the players, how much money he gave them, what currency notes and try to cross reference that with the currency notes (if any), found in the Pakistan players' rooms 2) Any recorded phone calls/text messages b/w the Majeed and Pakistani players, where the discuss the fix 3) Confession from any of the players themselves - One of the involved players might well volunteer to come forward and spill the beans, though that is hard because once the Pakistani players leave English soil, it will hard for Scotland Yard to interrogate them. But at some point, this will move from being a Scotland Yard investigation to an ICC investigation

[Fontaine]

Well, match fixing allegations are notoriously difficult to prove, because there is no way to prove, beyond doubt that the 'supoosed' event could not have happened otherwise. For example, Aamir could well have inadvertently bowled that no ball (Though he did himself no favors by over-stepping by a light year ) So here's what the police will be looking for, to indite the players; 1) Confession from the dude Mazhar Majeed - When he met the players, how much money he gave them, what currency notes and try to cross reference that with the currency notes (if any), found in the Pakistan players' rooms 2) Any recorded phone calls/text messages b/w the Majeed and Pakistani players, where the discuss the fix 3) Confession from any of the players themselves - One of the involved players might well volunteer to come forward and spill the beans, though that is hard because once the Pakistani players leave English soil, it will hard for Scotland Yard to interrogate them. But at some point, this will move from being a Scotland Yard investigation to an ICC investigation

The Pakistan players have to stay because they are involved in the rest of the t20/ODI tours. Neither the PCB or ECB has the balls to cancel those matches because they would be under penalty of MILLIONS of pounds from the TV rights that have already been sold. Secondly, this guy Majid claimed that he setup Swiss Bank accounts for these players so the evidence from previous fixed matches would be investigated as well and it would be pretty simple to trace the bank lodgements etc. Either way, if the allegations are true then it involves 7-10 people and all it takes is one person to confess in the team and they're all screwed.

[Ram]

The Pakistan players have to stay because they are involved in the rest of the t20/ODI tours. Neither the PCB or ECB has the balls to cancel those matches because they would be under penalty of MILLIONS of pounds from the TV rights that have already been sold. Secondly, this guy Majid claimed that he setup Swiss Bank accounts for these players so the evidence from previous fixed matches would be investigated as well and it would be pretty simple to trace the bank lodgements etc. Either way, if the allegations are true then it involves 7-10 people and all it takes is one person to confess in the team and they're all screwed.

Oh great, these guys are the worst match fixers in the world.. So yea, the main focus of the investigations will be - proving the money trail, having some paper trail (emails, SMSes, phone records), confessions from bookies and the players themselves.

[Fontaine]

Oh great, these guys are the worst match fixers in the world.. So yea, the main focus of the investigations will be - proving the money trail, having some paper trail (emails, SMSes, phone records), confessions from bookies and the players themselves.

I don't know if you watched sky news or not but they showed Scotland Yard agents taking one person from the team/squad in for questioning and they took away quite a few large bags of evidence that contained cash, phones, computers and other things from the player's rooms. They've already charged the agent with conspiracy to cheat book makers so Scotland Yard must feel they have enough evidence to prosecute him for that and by that evidence alone the two no-ballers will be named and shamed with that further evidence.

[Mamu]

Holyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Feck @ Indeed that was brazen! and very very stupid. It seems like the same cash was paid to Umar Amin and Riaz ! Though I still think -- the Bookie dealt with Players on a different term from the guys who paid him and am still thinking he had some cash in his coat from beforehand ! That indeed was wow!

[King]

King the more and more I read your posts -- i feel you are extremely naive ! If I am a bookie, I would never transfer the same cash to players -- for the reason you mentioned. You will have to think the crooked minded bookie -- is surely thinking on those lines. NOTW could not possibly have said - "You transfer the same cash to players". I would really laugh my ass off if the bookie indeed did that -- after NOTW said that. That would be the highlight of this whole episode! But then again -- we are talking about a Paki Bookie, wouldnt be surprised if even he is dumb :-)

On the other hand I reckon you are naive. You reckon bookies will take 150000 pounds, go home hide it and take another 150000 pounds from the bank to hand over to players?:--D Your theory sounds like a Hitchcock thriller. These bookies are not that smart. He wouldn't reveal all that he has if he has not done this many times before and trusted the betters. Just his bad luck he was set up this time. I'm sure many a times in the past he would have gone through this ordeal and got away with it. When doing it the first time he would have been careful but not when he's into this regularly.

[Ram]

Fully agree with that. I had expected a very angry response from the players and the management furiously claiming innocence and threatening with lawsuits. But they seem to be scared and are trying to be diplomatic in their replies. They are guilty. Just listen to Rameez commenting on Butt's response. He flatly calls him a liar and the response a joke.

Exactly, a completely innocent guy would have come out guns blazing, defiant and dismissing all the charges against him. He was like 'I dont want to talk about it..' Btw, the most repeated sentence during the press conference was 'Allegations are allegations..'... Of course, they're allegations, did anyone call them blueberries? The worst part of the press conference, not once during its entire duration did either the manager or Butt say the words 'We are innocent..'. :haha:

[Mamu]

On the other hand I reckon you are naive. You reckon bookies will take 150000 pounds' date=' go home hide it and take another 150000 pounds from the bank to hand over to players?:--D Your theory sounds like a Hitchcock thriller. These bookies are not that smart. He wouldn't reveal all that he has if he has not done this many times before and trusted the betters. Just his bad luck he was set up this time. I'm sure many a times in the past he would have gone through this ordeal and got away with it. When doing it the first time he would have been careful but not when he's into this regularly.[/quote'] Indeed I am. Still surprised at the bookies stupidity. I live in DC Metro Area and you must have read about the theft of Gold from Indian household in this area. Let me tell I am was amazed the sophistication and the flair with which the whole theft was carried. Nothing stopped the damn thieves from stealing, no matter what the Indians did. They changed door locks, installed security etc etc. Still lot of house holds who had gold got stolen. The gang was equipped with such high tech devices, they found a way to break every obstacle. So much so -- they left the rolled gold items behind and took away ONLY the real gold. The whole Indian community was panic struck, they all ran to the banks to put all their gold in the lockers. Police was just dumb struck. They all couldnt do anything. Banks were running out of locker space. Finally after more than a year -- police found them. But it took them a year (may be more). Anyways the point here the crooked guys who plan these things are always 3 steps ahead of the general thinking, so was quite surprised -- by this dumb guy who was doing all of this so brazenly out in the open. in fact honestly quite surprised at the players acceptance of the jacket out in the open. If I were the player, i would be be quite honest and say -- No Money changes hands till at least the tour is over and that too quite possibly in a 3rd country like Switzerland or some place. That is the minimum I would do.:cantstop:

[Rajiv]

Mamu, If I am a bookie, I wouldn't know what customer is coming with what amount to play. Typically, how I have seen and played in Mumbai is u call the Bookie, and he writes it up, offcourse, it's a safe thing to do as no one will screw with the bookie and they know how to get their money if not paid. BUT, if I go with cash, you think a bookie will have bundles of fixed amounts like 10K or 15K to be exchanged and transferred for the risk o notes being traced. If the guy was smart, he shouldn't have said that he will call the players in front of them to confirm? also the transfer of jacket ( of someone caught on camera, predicting no-balls which came true ) is enough, regardless of the notes being matched or not. You think in public opinion, people would buy the fact that Wahab Riaz and Umar Amin were street shopping for a used jacket from someone who happens to be a bookie and claim innocence? Camera recording and no-ball at the precise moment is nail in the coffin

[King]

Like a couple asked was the video a fabrication, were they filmed at a later stage of the game. Certainly not as you can see. Logically there were plenty more they could have fabricated if the video was shot after the day's play. They went with futile and meager no balls. Moreover the copy may have been working in tandem with the NOTW who knows? Silly enough the no balls were a foot ahead and Salman Butt brings out saw dust after the ball. That is so lame. Even worse they brought out the saw dust when Asif over-stepped too. That is as lame as it can get. Overall, they are all pretty stuffed. All they can now do is wait and speculate what action will be taken by ICC, PCB and the cops.