Is VVS Laxman a better player than Goddy under pressure?

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Ram]

This whole notion of the pressures out there in the pitch during the 4th/final innings of a test match being significantly more intense than those of the first innings of a match has to be one of the most commonly flaunted about urban legends of all time. Sure, the proponents of this theory will point out things like the pitch deteriorating to bolster their case that batting last is quantitatively more difficult than batting first and hence, the obvious corollary is that those people who have inferior 2nd/final innings record are somehow not in the same level as those that have stellar records for the same. But seriously, how often do pitches deteriorate these days? If anything, more and more, batting in the first innings seem to be getting harder and harder (as indicated by the deluge of low 1st innings scores in some of the recent matches, followed by substantially better 2nd innings efforts..). And its not like when the 2nd innings begind, neon lights flash around the pitch, sirens go off and a mini-grenade explodes every time the bowler pitches the ball. At the end of the day, its still a contest of the bat versus ball. You speak to any batsmen worth his salt about his approach to batting in the first innings versus the 2nd and he will tell you that, at a fundamental level, it is still pretty much the same. Unfortunately, somewhere in the early 2000s, right about the time when cricket began to have stat databases, people began this micro-****ysis of different batsmens’ careers, coming up with all sorts of obtuse criteria that no one talked about before. That sort of infantilie approach is fine if you’re a Pakistani troll trying to say belittle Sehwag’s career by using the oft-used cliché of his 2nd innings numbers, but to want to segregate two Indian batsmen, two qualified greats at that, on the basis of conjured up yardsticks that have little meaning out there on the cricket field is just pure insanity. Depending on how you twist your stats, you can probably prove that Jesus was Muslim, but that still doesn’t change the reality out there on the field.

[zen]

This whole notion of the pressures out there in the pitch during the 4th/final innings of a test match being significantly more intense than those of the first innings of a match has to be one of the most commonly flaunted about urban legends of all time. Sure, the proponents of this theory will point out things like the pitch deteriorating to bolster their case that batting last is quantitatively more difficult than batting first and hence, the obvious corollary is that those people who have inferior 2nd/final innings record are somehow not in the same level as those that have stellar records for the same. But seriously, how often do pitches deteriorate these days? If anything, more and more, batting in the first innings seem to be getting harder and harder (as indicated by the deluge of low 1st innings scores in some of the recent matches, followed by substantially better 2nd innings efforts..). And its not like when the 2nd innings begind, neon lights flash around the pitch, sirens go off and a mini-grenade explodes every time the bowler pitches the ball. At the end of the day, its still a contest of the bat versus ball. You speak to any batsmen worth his salt about his approach to batting in the first innings versus the 2nd and he will tell you that, at a fundamental level, it is still pretty much the same. Unfortunately, somewhere in the early 2000s, right about the time when cricket began to have stat databases, people began this micro-****ysis of different batsmens’ careers, coming up with all sorts of obtuse criteria that no one talked about before. That sort of infantilie approach is fine if you’re a Pakistani troll trying to say belittle Sehwag’s career by using the oft-used cliché of his 2nd innings numbers, but to want to segregate two Indian batsmen, two qualified greats at that, on the basis of conjured up yardsticks that have little meaning out there on the cricket field is just pure insanity. Depending on how you twist your stats, you can probably prove that Jesus was Muslim, but that still doesn’t change the reality out there on the field.

Ah ha, the kid still though about toys when he wrote this :giggle:

[Ram]

Ah ha' date=' the kid still though about toys when he wrote this :giggle:[/quote'] Yes, kids play with hand grenades..! I know you’re still smarting from the ass-kicking you got yesterday.. But honestly, I try to stay away from deluded dudes who refer to themselves in the third person.. They sort of freak me out you know.. :haha: C’ya.

[zen]

Yes, kids play with hand grenades..! I know you’re still smarting from the ass-kicking you got yesterday.. But honestly, I try to stay away from deluded dudes who refer to themselves in the third person.. They sort of freak me out you know.. :haha: C’ya.

Toy grenade :P

[Raghav_12]

who has abused Tendulkar in this thread?

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1267283&postcount=70 do you approve this kinds language - Laxman pawns Sachin- regarding two greats of indian batting? Thread title could very well have been "VVS is best player in world for pressure situations". On the other hand do you think that it is appropiate to open a thread like the one which I suggested in my previous post -"If Laxman had supported Sachin like the way GG, Sehwag, RD, Vijay and Dhoni did, India would have saved Centurion"?

[yoda]

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1267283&postcount=70 do you approve this kinds language - Laxman pawns Sachin- regarding two greats of indian batting? Thread title could very well have been "VVS is best player in world for pressure situations".

First of all that post says "Laxman owning Sachin. " using 2nd inning stats to show it and no that is not abuse. Player A owning player B in a commonly used phrase. I think some of you guys have just lost it, not sure why.

On the other hand do you think that it is appropiate to open a thread like the one which I suggested in my previous post -"If Laxman had supported Sachin like the way GG, Sehwag, RD, Vijay and Dhoni did, India would have saved Centurion"?

Not appropriate because it is convoluted and will not have much takers, not because it is abusive.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

so its official then laxman is the greatest indian batsman ever

[Raghav_12]

First of all that post says "Laxman owning Sachin. " and no that is not abuse. Player A owning player B in a commonly used phrase. I think some of you guys have just lost it' date=' not sure why.[/quote'] I don't find it appropriate to use this kinda language. If we are using some slangs on forum that doesn't mean it is "commonly used phrase".

Not appropriate because it is convoluted and will not have much takers, not because it is abusive.

But it is fact isn't it? Laxman and Raina were the only two failures from Indian batting line up in that second innings. Raina nobody trusts on bouncy pitches but Laxman should have risen to occassion and supported Sachin to save that match. Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to pull down Laxman. But I don't understand why you think that first thread is fine but second one is convoluted. While intent wise there is not much difference - First is trying to pull down Sachin and Second is trying to pull down Laxman.

[Shawn]

VVS easily

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[The Outsider]

First is trying to pull down Sachin and Second is trying to pull down Laxman.

You find the OP in the thread a pull down on Tendulkar? All with phrases like, 'Laxman is the new Goddy' and smileys? If anything it's a lighthearted appreciation thread for Laxman comparing one aspect of his batting to the person who is considered the best modern batsman by many. Hobbs is said to have a been a better batsman on sticky wickets than Bradman by many writers. Would that be considered a pull down on Bradman by any expect the most fanatical of his fans?

[Raghav_12]

You find the OP in the thread a pull down on Tendulkar? All with phrases like, 'Laxman is the new Goddy' and smileys? If anything it's a lighthearted appreciation thread for Laxman comparing one aspect of his batting to the person who is considered the best modern batsman by many. Hobbs is said to have a been a better batsman on sticky wickets than Bradman by many writers. Would that be considered a pull down on Bradman by any expect the most fanatical of his fans?

Don't stay only on the OP part, haven't you seen all the posts which have been posted in thread? Don't you think whole discussion hasn't been really light hearted? In fact this thread has stopped many people from appreciating Laxman's achievement with most open hearts as they have been dragged into this meaningless debate. If nothing else, timing of this thread has been really poor.

[yoda]

If we can't even say player A is better than player B in pressure situations and discuss it using stats and game situations and ****ysis, we might as well shut the site down. Some of you guys frankly are missing something called common sense.

[The Outsider]

Don't stay only on the OP part, haven't you seen all the posts which have been posted in thread? Don't you think whole discussion hasn't been really light hearted? In fact this thread has stopped many people from appreciating Laxman's achievement with most open hearts as they have been dragged into this meaningless debate. If nothing else, timing of this thread has been really poor.

The thread was going fine and in the vein it was started till : http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1265522&postcount=15 http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1266699&postcount=26 http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1267098&postcount=39 over zealous Tendulkar fans entered the thread to 'defend his honor' like the Rajputs. In the middle there were some irritating response from others as well which took the thread downhill, like : http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1266686&postcount=24 The problem is not just this thread. It's an epidemic on ICF - criticize Tendulkar on any aspect, compare any aspect of cricket of any cricketer with Tendulkar - and there is this vocal, fanatical minority which descends on to you. It's not limited to ICF. It's the trend of the modern Indian media who have taken it upon themselves to rewrite history in order to shore up their inferiority complex. 'How dare anyone compare anyone to Sachin? We'll show them. '

[Raghav_12]

The thread was going fine and in the vein it was started till : http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1265522&postcount=15 http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1266699&postcount=26 http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1267098&postcount=39 over zealous Tendulkar fans entered the thread to 'defend his honor' like the Rajputs. In the middle there were some irritating response from others as well which took the thread downhill, like : http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1266686&postcount=24 The problem is not just this thread. It's an epidemic on ICF - criticize Tendulkar on any aspect, compare any aspect of cricket of any cricketer with Tendulkar - and there is this vocal, fanatical minority which descends on to you. It's not limited to ICF. It's the trend of the modern Indian media who have taken it upon themselves to rewrite history in order to shore up their inferiority complex. 'How dare anyone compare anyone to Sachin? We'll show them. '

Sorry, rt now don't have much time to go through the links that you have posted. However your following statement doesn't make much sense -

The problem is not just this thread. It's an epidemic on ICF - criticize Tendulkar on any aspect, compare any aspect of cricket of any cricketer with Tendulkar - and there is this vocal, fanatical minority which descends on to you. '

the whole issue is that why Laxman appreciation thread should go around criticizing Sachin. This mentality of people that you can make your line longest by rubbing off other's line rather than by extending your own line is wrong.

[Raghav_12]

If we can't even say player A is better than player B in pressure situations and discuss it using stats and game situations and ****ysis, we might as well shut the site down. Some of you guys frankly are missing something called common sense.

There is no problem with this kinda comparison but it has to be done in right tone at right time. I think both of these things were not very appropriate in this case.

[The Outsider]

the whole issue is that why Laxman appreciation thread should go around criticizing Sachin. This mentality of people that you can make your line longest by rubbing off other's line rather than by extending your own line is wrong.

It didn't start off like that, did it? You admitted it started off as a lighthearted Laxman appreciation thread. If anything it was complimentary to Tendulkar because what is considered one of Laxman's strongest suite as a batsman was being compared to Tendulkar. It was only when the 'How dare someone compare anyone to Sachin' brigade entered the thread that it went downhill. I asked you this earlier as well - is saying Hobbs was a better player on sticky wickets a pull down on Bradman?

[Sachin=GOD]

[

The thread was going fine and in the vein it was started till : http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1265522&postcount=15 http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1266699&postcount=26 http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1267098&postcount=39 over zealous Tendulkar fans entered the thread to 'defend his honor' like the Rajputs. In the middle there were some irritating response from others as well which took the thread downhill, like : http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1266686&postcount=24 The problem is not just this thread. It's an epidemic on ICF - criticize Tendulkar on any aspect, compare any aspect of cricket of any cricketer with Tendulkar - and there is this vocal, fanatical minority which descends on to you. It's not limited to ICF. It's the trend of the modern Indian media who have taken it upon themselves to rewrite history in order to shore up their inferiority complex. 'How dare anyone compare anyone to Sachin? We'll show them. '

you forgot one post: http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1266729&postcount=27 now tell me who is going off-topic here by making comparisons with Don Bradman in this thread.

[yoda]

There is no problem with this kinda comparison but it has to be done in right tone at right time. I think both of these things were not very appropriate in this case.

Not appropriate cause Sachin failed in the 2nd innings and Laxman played a blinder in the most recent test? It is customary for threads to be opened based on recent performances and no one goes postal at those except ofc Sachin Fanatics. If Dravid fails, we will see threads asking for him to be dropped, if Harby succeeds you will see some bumping threads which said he was the greatest, etc. This is how a MB works. You may or may not like them and you are free to discuss/air your opinion, but it doesn't mean you derail the threads, accusing the thread starter and those who disagree with your POV as a hater/non-indian cricket fan, etc. Anyways I am done with this for now. Thread has been derailed enough already.