zen Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 How about in England? That question is a classic example of someone relying on stats without getting the context and/or perspective. :winky:
Bublu Bhuyan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 While it can be debated whether performance outside Asia on a whole matters/is important or not, I have no doubts in my mind that he has been really poor (overall) in 4th innings of Test matches so far. He has played one good innings so far in 4th innings and that was against England in late 2008. Otherwise that average of 28.86 is pathetic, and is a major blot on his career. He needs to improve in that area.
punjabi_khota Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 While it can be debated whether performance outside Asia on a whole matters/is important or not' date=' I have no doubts in my mind that he has been really poor (overall) in 4th innings of Test matches so far. He has played one good innings so far in 4th innings and that was against England in late 2008. Otherwise that average of 28.86 is pathetic, and is a major blot on his career. He needs to improve in that area.[/quote'] It is a statistical anomaly. Sample size=27 innings. Out of 87 tests he played, India batted 2nd in 58 test. Out of those he batted in 4th innings only in 27 tests.
Bublu Bhuyan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 It is a statistical anomaly. Sample size=27 innings. Out of 87 tests he played' date=' India batted 2nd in 58 test. Out of those he batted in 4th innings only in 27 tests.[/quote'] He is just 32 and has plenty of time left in his career to rectify it. At one point in 2007, SRT had an average of about 33 odd in 4th innings. He has done really good since then to improve that average to almost 40 now. I hope Sehwag does the same. I just expect him to have a descent 4th innings average, like SRT does now.
zen Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 I don't read too many threads but of the ones that I have read this one is probably amongst the most comical ones, esp since this is a serious attempt to prove something by grasping on to the staws :P
Bublu Bhuyan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 I don't read too many threads but of the ones that I have read this one is probably amongst the most comical ones' date=' esp since this is a serious attempt to prove something by grasping on to the staws :P[/quote'] Grasping to the straws? Has anyone here given a rational explanation of his pathetic 4th innings average? He has played 27 such innings and averages 28 odd. Don't give me this garbage about how his role is to set up a match. Every batsman is expected to perform while chasing in the 4th innings, and not bottle it out. How about you find me one good/great batsman with a similar pathetic 4th innings average?
Gunner_Mania Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 How about you find me one good/great batsman with a similar pathetic 4th innings average? http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=batting_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmax1=49;qualmin1=0;qualmin2=25;qualval1=batting_average;qualval2=innings;template=results;type=batting Top4 Attapatu Steve waugh Trescothick Stephen Fleming A few more names in there to boot - David Gower, Lara etc
The Outsider Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 ^ Steve Waugh - considered as one the best batsman under pressure.
Bublu Bhuyan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=batting_average;orderbyad=reverse;qualmax1=49;qualmin1=0;qualmin2=25;qualval1=batting_average;qualval2=innings;template=results;type=batting Top4 Attapatu Steve waugh Trescothick Stephen Fleming A few more names in there to boot - David Gower, Lara etc An average of below 30 to be precise. BTW, you consider guys like Attapatu, Trescothic and Stephen Fleming in the same league as Sehwag? Careerwise, Attapatu averaged below 40, Fleming somehow just 40, and Trescothick 44 odd. Both David Gower and Brian Lara average much more than him in 4th innings. Yes, Steve Waugh is one guy who can be classified in the same league as Sehwag with an absolutely horrendous 4th innings average. You can yourself see from that list that you provided me the link to, that how poor Sehwag has done till date in 4th innings of Test matches. There are just 4 guys with lower averages in that list, and out of them only Steve Waugh can be put in Sehwag's class. P.S. I admit I should have asked you to name players of Sehwag's league with similar or inferior 4th innings averages, rather than good/great (great would qualify, good wouldn't) players.
The Outsider Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 ^ So, why is Steve Waugh considered as one of the best batsmen under pressure, if in reality he was a choker according to your definition? Even, Lara and Border are not far away. Given the small sample size of fourth innings, they are just one good innings away
Bublu Bhuyan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 ^ So, why is Steve Waugh considered as one of the best batsmen under pressure, if in reality he was a choker according to your definition? Even, Lara and Border are not far away. Given the small sample size of fourth innings, they are just one good innings away Both Lara and Border are far away. Border averaged 34 odd while Lara averaged 35 odd. It's far better than what Sehwag averages in 4th innings which is 28 odd. Chasing in 4th innings of Test matches isn't the only type of pressure a batsman has to tackle , that's just one of the areas. Steve Waugh was a failure with the capital "F" in that regard, but overall he performed well in other pressure situations. Waugh was a bonafide choker while chasing in 4th innings, that too an absolutely pathetic one. But overall careerwise he was far from being a choker. Sehwag too has been a big choker as of now in 4th innings, however that doesn't make him a choker overall. I called him a choker while chasing in 4th innings of Test matches. Overall, Sehwag is far from being a choker.
The Outsider Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 ^ Try to understand the small sample sizes involved in the 4th innings. If in his next innings, Sehwag merely scores a 65* chasing 120 in a pressure free chase, his average will jump up to 32, comparable with Lara and Border. So all of sudden he will not be a 4th innings choker anymore? Is a 65* in a dead chase all that is holding him back? So, I guess you want him to keep his average of 70 in the first innings and start averaging 50 in the second innings. That would push his overall average to 65. Anyhow, keep on going. I am learning a lot here. Lesson for today - Choking depends on the innings being played now. There are chokers who specialize in certain areas - like first innings choker, fourth innings choker etc.
punjabi_khota Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Too many ****ing arm-chair critics armed with dangerous stats and too much time on their hands :dontknow: :wall:
Sachin=GOD Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 ^ Try to understand the small sample sizes involved in the 4th innings. If in his next innings, Sehwag merely scores a 65* chasing 120 in a pressure free chase, his average will jump up to 32, comparable with Lara and Border. So all of sudden he will not be a 4th innings choker anymore? Is a 65* in a dead chase all that is holding him back? So, I guess you want him to keep his average of 70 in the first innings and start averaging 50 in the second innings. That would push his overall average to 65. Anyhow, keep on going. I am learning a lot here. Lesson for today - Choking depends on the innings being played now. There are chokers who specialize in certain areas - like first innings choker, fourth innings choker etc. :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: there's one big disadvantage of statsguru - it creates "experts" like Bublu Bhuyan.
Bublu Bhuyan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 ^ Try to understand the small sample sizes involved in the 4th innings. If in his next innings, Sehwag merely scores a 65* chasing 120 in a pressure free chase, his average will jump up to 32, comparable with Lara and Border. So all of sudden he will not be a 4th innings choker anymore? I'll admit the sample size hasn't been that big for Sehwag. Regardless, he has been disappointing so far in 4th innings chases. And I think you'll agree with me. Let's forget whether he's a choker in 4th innings chases or not, will you not agree that he has been nowhere near as good as he generally is in 4th innings chases? So' date=' I guess you want him to keep his average of 70 in the first innings and start averaging 50 in the second innings. That would push his overall average to 65. [/quote'] I have no problems with his below par (30.63) average in 2nd team innings. In fact the reason he averages 53 odd is because he makes up for his below par average in 2nd team innings with his incredible average in 1st team innings.
Gunner_Mania Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 I'll admit the sample size hasn't been that big for Sehwag. Regardless, he has been disappointing so far in 4th innings chases. And I think you'll agree with me. Let's forget whether he's a choker in 4th innings chases or not, will you not agree that he has been nowhere near as good as he generally is in 4th innings chases? I have no problems with his below par (30.63) average in 2nd team innings. In fact the reason he averages 53 odd is because he makes up for his below par average in 2nd team innings with his incredible average in 1st team innings. so what was the point of this thread again?
Bublu Bhuyan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 so what was the point of this thread again? He hasn't performed upto his standards outside Asia and in 4th innings of Test matches. Most of the arguments from the posters have been that performance outside Asia for a batsman from the subcontinent doesn't mean much. And that 4th innings average doesn't mean much for Sehwag since his job is to set up a match. It's a different matter if you believe along those lines, but you cannot avoid the fact that he has been below par outside Asia and in 4th innings of Test matches.
zen Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Let see Sehwag in the 4th inning: Innings played: 27 Meaningful contributions: 1. 33 against WI in 2002 ----> Ind won 2. 47 at Adelaide against OZ in 2003 ----> Ind won 3. 14* at Harare against Zim ----> Ind won (though chasing a small total) 4. 76* against Eng ----> Ind won 5. 22 against SA ----> Ind won! This was at Kanpur in a low scoring game. That pitch was an absolute turnerm, iirc. 6. 83 against Eng ----> Ind won! Made it possible for Ind to chase that big total by scoring those runs in 60 odd balls! Top Dog! :hatsoff: LINK No need to mention his SR!
Bublu Bhuyan Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 Let see Sehwag in the 4th inning: Innings played: 27 Meaningful contributions: 1. 33 against WI in 2002 ----> Ind won :giggle: 2. 47 at Adelaide against OZ in 2003 ----> Ind won - Yes, a pretty good one. 3. 14* at Harare against Zim ----> Ind won (though chasing a small total) :hysterical: 4. 76* against Eng ----> Ind won - Yes, a good one. 5. 22 against SA----> Ind won! This was at Kanpur in a low scoring game. That pitch was an absolute turnerm, iirc. :hysterical: 6. 83 against Eng]----> Ind won! Made it possible for Ind to chase that big total by scoring those runs in 60 odd balls! - Brilliant. Top Dog! :hatsoff: LINK No need to mention his SR!
The Outsider Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 He hasn't performed upto his standards outside Asia and in 4th innings of Test matches. Most of the arguments from the posters have been that performance outside Asia for a batsman from the subcontinent doesn't mean much. And that 4th innings average doesn't mean much for Sehwag since his job is to set up a match. It's a different matter if you believe along those lines, but you cannot avoid the fact that he has been below par outside Asia and in 4th innings of Test matches. What is this stupid fascination with Asia and outside Asia? Conditions in each country are different and in each country can be difficult depending on the pitch and the bowlers. I don't see all pitches in Asia being similar nor do I see all pitches outside Asia being similar. And I do see a lot of pitches outside Asia being similar to pitches in Asia. Yeah, Sehwag has not done well in two countries - South Africa and New Zealand. I certainly don't think that an average of 40 for an opener from India are poor returns in England. Atherton's career average wasn't even 40 and Strauss does not average much more than that. Gavaskar averaged around the same in England. To say he failed in New Zealand because of conditions or because he can't play the moving ball is a joke because the pitches were flatbeds when we went there last time. The only country Sehwag has failed due to conditions/bowling/form is South Africa. Most batsmen have a country where they are not as good. So big deal! Lara averaged 30 in India. I don't have to remind you of Ponting. 4th innings of a test is again just another senseless bogey. Ponting averaged infinity in the recent Ashes scoring a 56*. I suppose he did not choke, did he?
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