A good wake up call: the way forward for Ind

[zen]

Back to square one. Lots of perspective. No point in arguing as really simply' date=' our whole damn argument is [b']based on hindsight.

And I guess 7+4 is not :giggle:

[ganeshran]

We cannot blame our bowling alone when even the fielding and the overall attitude of the team sucked. Compare the team that was on for the first 42 overs and the one that was on for the last 8. We are getting way too complacent after posting big totals hoping for a opposition collapse. Every team in our group have a strong batting lineup. If we can post 350+ against their moderate bowling, they too can do the same against our below average attack, just as easily. The key is attitude, the attacking, the running around. We squandered way too many chances and simply werent sharp enough. As a commie said, Indian fielding looked like a bunch of old guys in the field.

[DeXteR]

I guess nothing can be done .7+4 is our strength. May be get Ashwin for Piyush. Bowlers have to really deliver on this stage. It was really sad that after scoring 338 its a tie. ( i hope this was one exceptional match due to Strauss innings, hopefully our bowlers deliver next time , at least stop opposition around 270 if Indian team is scoring 300 ) This is wakeup call for Indian team.Not only bowling even fielding was ordinary today - Poor even by Indian standards. Come on guys , buck up your bowling.Get us the cup

[Karan114]

We cannot blame our bowling alone when even the fielding and the overall attitude of the team sucked. Compare the team that was on for the first 42 overs and the one that was on for the last 8. We are getting way too complacent after posting big totals hoping for a opposition collapse. Every team in our group have a strong batting lineup. If we can post 350+ against their moderate bowling, they too can do the same against our below average attack, just as easily. The key is attitude, the attacking, the running around. We squandered way too many chances and simply werent sharp enough. As a commie said, Indian fielding looked like a bunch of old guys in the field.

Very good point about the contrast in attitudes during the English innings and I agree we expect the opposition to crumble under the pressure of a big total. The Lanka game at Rajkot in 2009 when they nearly made 420 should have been a reminder that you can't take anything for granted against the top sides. That time it was Sanga, today Strauss, tomorrow it might be Smith or Ponting making a big score like that. As I mentioned on the match thread, during such big chases, even if you aren't getting wickets, a few very tight overs will force the opposition into something stupid or the asking rate will just become unmanageable. We could hardly string together two overs like that - they were getting a boundary plus a couple of singles almost every over. Then again, our fielding is so poor that it is difficult building pressure that way.

[zen]

Have to say that w/ the kind of fielding we do, we probably need bowlers like Ambrose, Akram, etc who can create a few wkt taking opportunities by themselves :P

[ganeshran]

Very good point about the contrast in attitudes during the English innings and I agree we expect the opposition to crumble under the pressure of a big total. The Lanka game at Rajkot in 2009 when they nearly made 420 should have been a reminder that you can't take anything for granted against the top sides. That time it was Sanga, today Strauss, tomorrow it might be Smith or Ponting making a big score like that. As I mentioned on the match thread, during such big chases, even if you aren't getting wickets, a few very tight overs will force the opposition into something stupid or the asking rate will just become unmanageable. We could hardly string together two overs like that - they were getting a boundary plus a couple of singles almost every over. Then again, our fielding is so poor that it is difficult building pressure that way.

Exactly, a dive here and there, a direct hit, a marvellous catch, all off these gets the rest of the team fired up and the adrenaline pumping. Here they looked like a bunch of old ladies who didnt get their meds on time :facepalm:

[retterimp]

And I guess 7+4 is not :giggle:

that is based on historical facts, 7+4 has worked well and we've won games. its your idea that is purely speculative unless a supremely talented bowler pops out of the fields of jalandher or wherever, 6+5 gives no added advantage.

[SachDan]

Very good point about the contrast in attitudes during the English innings and I agree we expect the opposition to crumble under the pressure of a big total. The Lanka game at Rajkot in 2009 when they nearly made 420 should have been a reminder that you can't take anything for granted against the top sides. That time it was Sanga, today Strauss, tomorrow it might be Smith or Ponting making a big score like that. As I mentioned on the match thread, during such big chases, even if you aren't getting wickets, a few very tight overs will force the opposition into something stupid or the asking rate will just become unmanageable. We could hardly string together two overs like that - they were getting a boundary plus a couple of singles almost every over. Then again, our fielding is so poor that it is difficult building pressure that way.

few good,valid points there.

[zen]

that is based on historical facts, 7+4 has worked well and we've won games. its your idea that is purely speculative unless a supremely talented bowler pops out of the fields of jalandher or wherever, 6+5 gives no added advantage.

Hindsight is more likely to be based on history, no? :P on the contrary, if a supremely talented bowler pops up, 7+4 would work even better as then you can get away by playing 4 bowlers :winky: Many of the random thoughts, just amaze me .... It hard to believe that 80% of folks have no clue as to what they are talking about. And even worse, a general opinion is formed based on that .... There is no point even in debating as to debate, the folks have to at least understand what's being implied and discussed I finally give up on debating/discussing at ICF and will only express my opinion. if people agree with it then its fine, if they don't then so be it :((

[SachDan]

Unlike many here I'm not a fan of Dhoni's captaincy but you just can't ignore his luck factor.Even after a mediocre day in the field,guy managed not to lose the match! It has nothing to do with his captaincy..was a combination of an inspired spell from ZAK and insipid batting in the end overs from Poms that tied the match but Dhoni, the captain was never gonna end up as the captain who lost in the highest scoring world cup match!

[someone]

Hindsight What a bloody thing! Everyone just loves using it. Every single fan, media believe they know so much about cricket using hindsight. This is the difference between us sitting down and watching vs the players, standing and being counted. Every comment after we lose is why did player XYZ used XX tactics, but when we win, XYZ was smart using XX Tactics. Seeing the likes of indian media and large % of supporters talking shite and totally difference pre and post match makes me angry. Someone should record them as you really cannot praise them and criticize them the next moment just to make yourself look right. So please stop the hindsight in discussion.

[zen]

What a bloody thing! Everyone just loves using it. Every single fan, media believe they know so much about cricket using hindsight. This is the difference between us sitting down and watching vs the players, standing and being counted. Every comment after we lose is why did player XYZ used XX tactics, but when we win, XYZ was smart using XX Tactics. Seeing the likes of indian media and large % of supporters talking shite and totally difference pre and post match makes me angry. Someone should record them as you really cannot praise them and criticize them the next moment just to make yourself look right. So please stop the hindsight in discussion.

Calm down dude and stop posting this nonsense everywhere, it's not about what makes you angry but how your stupid anger could make someelse angry :P You keep babbling about hindsight but it's not like people thought that 7+2+2 is great (and thus agreed with what the team did) but after it failed people started calling it out as if they were experts. You are probably the one who supports almost everything the team does but that doesn't mean you do your hindsight babble everywhere :P This is what I had posted before Ind's first game and before the game at B'lore:

Anyways, my 11 for the first game. I think we wouldn't need 7 batsmen on a flatish pitch against BD bowlers, mainly spinners. And we play spin well - Tendulkar - Sehwag - GG - Kohli - Dhoni - YP - Ashwin / Chawla (or Yuvi to see if he can strike some form. He has been bowling well lately) - Bhajji - Zak - Munna - Sree / Nehra India :isalute:

Can't wait for the game to start at B'lore .... also waiting for the match-tracker w/ cool analysis for the game to open Would prefer the same 11 as the above for B'lore :isalute:

Also my thread A brief analysis: .... Btw, would appreciate it if mods merged this thread with the one above as the subject is similar Thank you!

[someone]

Calm down dude and stop posting this nonsense everywhere, it's not about what makes you angry but how your stupid anger could make someelse angry :P You keep babbling about hindsight but it's not like people thought that 7+2+2 is great (and thus agreed with what the team did) but after it failed people started calling it out as if they were experts. You are probably the one who supports almost everything the team does but that doesn't mean you do your hindsight babble everywhere :P This is what I had posted before Ind's first game and before the game at B'lore:

Lol, that post was moved to this thread, it was not addressed to this issue but rather to the majority who start posting after the match that Dhoni should not have bowled Patel in last over, Chawla 2nd last, these kind of things. Maybe the reason I support the team is due to the fact I am a supporter not manager of the team. I know my only role is to support the team unless there is real evidence that there were mistakes in the match.

[youngindia]

Against a good bowling and fielding side, you could end up w/ 280. Which is where we need depth in our bowling, at least in terms of options.

the fundamental flaw in your thinking (which is highly shallow) is the 5th bowler will make any difference. It will not...the opposition may still score 340 against india with 5 bowlers. the QUALITY is important,...quantity does not make up for quality. the 5th bowler was tried by greg and dravid with no results...are you guys too blind tos ee the results?

If we lose some early wkts, whatever the 7th batsman does may not be enough or if the top 5 fire, the 7th batsman's chances to contribute would not be that high. So in either case, we will need our bowling to bail us out :winky:

totally false. ' the 325 chase vs england was brought by the last wicket partnertship between yuvraj and kaif. kaif and dravid also had the crucail partnership vs pakistan when we are chasing 290 in lahore 2004 trailing 2-1 amd we were 160-4. uthappa as the 7th batsman helped india get over the line vs england in 2007 and also in that low scoring match vs australia in mumbai. clarke and symonds have had many a versatile 7th wicket partnerships. the 7th batsmen has proved very important. jadeja as the fifth bowler has msotly done very mediocre. there is NO JUSTIFICATION whatsoever for playing the fifth bowler. it gives us nothing except weaken the cruciaL BATTING.

[zen]

Lol, that post was moved to this thread, it was not addressed to this issue but rather to the majority who start posting after the match that Dhoni should not have bowled Patel in last over, Chawla 2nd last, these kind of things. Maybe the reason I support the team is due to the fact I am a supporter not manager of the team. I know my only role is to support the team unless there is real evidence that there were mistakes in the match.

My bad! :icflove:

[Fontaine]

What a bloody thing! Everyone just loves using it. Every single fan, media believe they know so much about cricket using hindsight. This is the difference between us sitting down and watching vs the players, standing and being counted. Every comment after we lose is why did player XYZ used XX tactics, but when we win, XYZ was smart using XX Tactics. Seeing the likes of indian media and large % of supporters talking shite and totally difference pre and post match makes me angry. Someone should record them as you really cannot praise them and criticize them the next moment just to make yourself look right. So please stop the hindsight in discussion.

Exactly. This was the flattest wicket in the tournament so far. No spin, no seam/swing even in the first 10 overs. Out of the 12 bowlers used only two (Bhajji/Bresnan) went below 6 an over. Even when good deliveries were bowled all a batsmen had to do was bat through the line and with any timing it was a four or six. England's supposed strength going into the tournament was their bowling right? Everyone was saying that they've got one of the best and deepest bowling lineups in the world and here they gave away 330+ runs and nearly 300 to the dutch. Stop blaming the players for the mistakes of the curator.

[someone]

Exactly. This was the flattest wicket in the tournament so far. No spin, no seam/swing even in the first 10 overs. Out of the 12 bowlers used only two (Bhajji/Bresnan) went below 6 an over. Even when good deliveries were bowled all a batsmen had to do was bat through the line and with any timing it was a four or six. England's supposed strength going into the tournament was their bowling right? Everyone was saying that they've got one of the best and deepest bowling lineups in the world and here they gave away 330+ runs and nearly 300 to the dutch. Stop blaming the players for the mistakes of the curator.

If that is sarcasm, then alright otherwise WTH? You are again doing the same thing I mentioned above, curator is brilliant till the end of Indian innings but really poor as India could not get wickets because of the only pitch. Lame excuse, everybody in team can improve, however, we should stop making crazy comments like why Dhoni bowled him in X over, this is what I do not want.

[zen]

LINK

Dale Steyn, South Africa's premier fast bowler, has said the mandatory ball change after 34 overs in an ODI innings could benefit seamers in this tournament. "The change of ball helped to get some reverse swing," he said from Chandigarh. "We worked nicely on the second ball, and it has become clear that it's going to play a massive role." On Thursday, at the Feroz Shah Kotla in Delhi, the West Indies lost six wickets for 68 runs after the change of ball, with three of the scalps going Steyn's way. The effect of the second ball was also pronounced in the game between England and India in Bangalore. England lost six wickets for 109 runs, as their slide was sparked by a spell from Zaheer Khan, who took three wickets. "He got [Andrew] Strauss and [ian Bell] with reverse," Steyn said.

We need to get guys who can swing and reverse swing into the playing X1. The overs that we may need to bowl seamers in: 1. 1-12 = 12 overs 2. 34-39 = 6 overs 3. 43-50 = 8 overs Approx. 26 overs Remaining. 24 overs We also need to go for the kill w/ the ball at every given opportunity. This is making me more inclined towards a 3 seamers + 2 spinners attack. Dhoni being a WK all-rounder, really gives us a nice balance so we would be ok w/ 6 batters. Guys like Bhajji and Ashwin are no mug w/ the bat either.

[Lord]

it may seem that 7th batsman is being wasted atm' date='but it will come into play wen we chase.chasing high scores u almost certainly need the 7th batsmen to get over the line[/quote'] just like I felt even in a small chase,7th batsman was needed.it almosts comes into play in a chase.shows how stupid OP's idea is

[zen]

just like I felt even in a small chase' date='7th batsman was needed.it almosts comes into play in a chase.shows how stupid OP's idea is[/quote'] Was the pitch flat or a 300 runs pitch that we got to see in the last two games at B'lore? :hmmmm2: If not, then what's the point of your post! If the pitch has something in it for the spinners, then our part-timers (who are spinners) become effective, thus automatically giving us extra bowling options. On the other hand, if the pitch is flat and a team gets 320+, and we are 100 for 4 (top order gone), it's difficult to chase that down against strong teams more often than not. How successful a bi chase is usually depends upon how the top 4-5 go. And then on a good batting surface, guys like Ashwin, Bhajji, etc can hit a few too. Obviously, you don't understand what's being implied. What's next when Ind make 330/5, w/ the 7th batsman being 30 not out (and the opposition comes close or chases it), do I come out here and say see I said we could have gone in w/ 5 bowlers *rolleyes*