A good wake up call: the way forward for Ind

[zen]

This is one of the best chance that Ind has to win this world cup. I am glad that we got this jolt from Eng (the match is going on and even if Ind sneaks in a win, we need to rethink our strategy) early on then in one of the KO games. It appears as if Pak could be A2 in its group, so being B3 might not be that bad considering our record against them in WC and how it could propel us What Ind has shown so far is that its top 5-6 batsmen are good enough to get 320 on board on good batting surfaces. 7 to 7.5 per over in the 20 PP overs, 5.5 to 6 per over in the 30 regular overs = approx. 320. With the kind of form the 5-6 batsmen are in, they, along w/ the tail, should back themselves to get those. We need to make sure that the good work by our batsmen doesn't go down the drain. The question is, how do we defend or restrict the opposition to less. For this Ind has to pick bowlers who focus on picking wkts up. Runs would come anyways against our attack. Now-a-days good batting sides are smart and calculative enough to take advantage of slight opportunities, so bowling restrictive lines to ball dot balls which in turn would create pressure to lead to a wkt falling may work against lesser batsmen but not against the top ones. We need to consider going in w/ 5 bowlers. Let's keep it simple: batsmen score runs, bowlers pick wkts :two_thumbs_up: We cannot afford crappy line of thinking like play 8 batsmen (as if ability to pick wks up doesn't count and bowlers are just there to go and bowl their quota or dots, and as if there is not much difference b/w part-timers and regular bowlers) or 2+2 bowling combination (which is neither here nor there unless the pitch has turn in it), etc. Btw, Eng needs 56 of 36 balls. 2 quick wkts has probably shifted the momentum into balance. Still this is Eng's game to lose, but anything can happen as they say you never know till the last ball is bowled :winky: for a miraculous Indian win

[someone]

Really stupid. Fact is there is no golden rule to win matches. There are riskes taken, and really you need to go with the formula which has consisted guranteed you to win. Which for india, is 7+ 4. The fact is every batting lineup do collapse in key moments and it has and will be our reason for not winning the matches/world cup(if we are to) Bowling is no difference, if your 4 batsman cannot take wickets, additional bowler will be no difference from part timers.

[NareshK]

With a bowling attack like India's, it will be a mammoth achievement to get to Semi Finals.

[zen]

Really stupid. Fact is there is no golden rule to win matches. There are riskes taken' date= and really you need to go with the formula which has consisted guranteed you to win. Which for india, is 7+ 4. The fact is every batting lineup do collapse in key moments and it has and will be our reason for not winning the matches/world cup(if we are to) Bowling is no difference, if your 4 batsman cannot take wickets, additional bowler will be no difference from part timers.

Since there is no golden rule to winning, taking 7+4 as some kind of a magic formula that would always work doesn't make sense either :winky: If 3 bowlers are regularly picking up top order wkts and putting pressure on the opposition and we need the extra cushion for our batting then by all means we can go with 7+4 .... 6+5 suggestion is based on seeing how in this tourney so far our top 5-6 are performing and the bowling option that we have Am tired of reading such bench racer type beliefs. I think Ind would do well to do the opposite such general beliefs :P

[cowboysfan]

I am ticked at the way they used Kohli,he could have got the same run a ball fifty as yuvi and we could have really used yuvi in the last 10 overs.Its not like kohli cant hit 4s and 6s.

[someone]

Since there is no golden rule to winning, taking 7+4 as some kind of a magic formula that would always work doesn't make sense either :winky: If 3 bowlers are regularly picking up top order wkts and putting pressure on the opposition and we need the extra cushion for our batting then by all means we can go with 7+4 .... 6+5 suggestion is based on seeing how in this tourney so far our top 5-6 are performing and the bowling option that we have Am tired of reading such bench racer type beliefs. I think Ind would do well to do the opposite such general beliefs :P

Missed the point. It(7+4) has worked very well for India(particularly in India) a lot, there must a reason which is it suits the criteria of India team very well. Look again matter of ifs, if they perform, no need for others....

[zen]

Missed the point. It(7+4) has worked very well for India(particularly in India) a lot, there must a reason which is it suits the criteria of India team very well. Look again matter of ifs, if they perform, no need for others....

IMO, 7+4 would be a better option in bilateral series, where the chances of batting giving you 3 wins out of 5 games is high .... I am talking from the KO games perspective where you don''t get a 2nd chance and thus we need to attack both with the bat and the ball which is why I think 6+5 balances the side better Against a good bowling and fielding side, you could end up w/ 280. Which is where we need depth in our bowling, at least in terms of options. If we lose some early wkts, whatever the 7th batsman does may not be enough or if the top 5 fire, the 7th batsman's chances to contribute would not be that high. So in either case, we will need our bowling to bail us out :winky:

[someone]

IMO, 7+4 would be a better option in bilateral series, where the chances of batting giving you 3 wins out of 5 games is high .... I am talking from the KO games perspective where you don''t get a 2nd chance and thus we need to attack both with the bat and the ball which is why I think 6+5 balances the side better Against a good bowling and fielding side, you could end up w/ 280. Which is where we need depth in our bowling, at least in terms of options. If we lose some early wkts, whatever the 7th batsman does may not be enough or if the top 5 fire, the 7th batsman's chances to contribute would not be that high. So in either case, we will need our bowling to bail us out :winky:

You just mention one perspective, there are tons more. Lol, non stop arguing but really we both should not care as long India wins.

[asterix]

Sendin UV ahead of Kohli was costly. Kohli's superb hand speed would've allowed him to score more freely against Yardy..Just to give UV some batting practice, the match got almost screwed up. The launching pad we had was lost and the momentum screwed up. We could've easily got above 350 runs..

[zen]

You just mention one perspective, there are tons more. Lol, non stop arguing but really we both should not care as long India wins.

Ofc, there are tons of more perspective. I can only present the ones that I think would work but I am no expert so .... Yep, let's hope Ind puts up a better show :nice:

[cowboysfan]

I dont know a lot of things but i highly doubt we go into an odi with just 6 batsmen.

[Lord]

so we should weaken the only strength,great idea:giggle: we've seen our bowlers hit around.whether we play 7 bowlers,its not gonna change.good teams will make 300+ against us.so its better we MAKE SURE we get to 300+ every time.thats the only chance we have. its risky strategy,but thats the best we can adopt.thats why I'm not too hopeful of India winning it.our bowling n fielding is just too bad

[someone]

Sendin UV ahead of Kohli was costly. Kohli's superb hand speed would've allowed him to score more freely against Yardy..Just to give UV some batting practice, the match got almost screwed up. The launching pad we had was lost and the momentum screwed up. We could've easily got above 350 runs..

That the last thing I would blame. Our batting score was as good as we could. And regarding this topic as "Lord" said so we should weaken the only strength,great idea Probably answers why 7+4 is better

[zen]

Btw, Eng went in with 5 bowlers: 3+2 and tied the game with some good top batting by the top order SA also did well with 5 bowlers + 1 all-rounder against the WI Aus also has a lot of good bowling option It is probably Ind that thinks anything less than 7 is a no-no despite having probably the best top 4 and that too in form and a relatively weak bowling attack, which needs more options to support the good work by the batsmen

[Sachin=GOD]

so we should weaken the only strength,great idea:giggle: we've seen our bowlers hit around.whether we play 7 bowlers,its not gonna change.good teams will make 300+ against us.so its better we MAKE SURE we get to 300+ every time.thats the only chance we have. its risky strategy,but thats the best we can adopt.thats why I'm not too hopeful of India winning it.our bowling n fielding is just too bad

we have seen that however huge a score our batsmen score, the bowlers are simply unable to defend it and almost all the batsmen are in good form so it may not be such a big risk to go with 5 bowlers.

[zen]

That the last thing I would blame. Our batting score was as good as we could. And regarding this topic as "Lord" said so we should weaken the only strength,great idea Probably answers why 7+4 is better

It weakens the batting on paper :winky: As I said in one of my posts, if we lose early wkts, whatever the 7th batsman does may not be enough and if we don't lose early wkts (like in this game), the contribution is more in the lines of slogging a few balls .... Which is why in either case, it's the bowling that needs to step up, esp considering the KO games Can't explain better than this.

[someone]

It weakens the batting on paper :winky: As I said in one of my posts, if we lose early wkts, whatever the 7th batsman does may not be enough and if we don't lose early wkts (like in this game), the contribution is more in the lines of slogging a few balls .... Which is why in either case, it's the bowling that needs to step up, esp considering the KO games Can't explain better than this.

Back to square one. Lots of perspective. No point in arguing as really simply, our whole damn argument is based on hindsight.

[Lord]

it may seem that 7th batsman is being wasted atm,but it will come into play wen we chase.chasing high scores u almost certainly need the 7th batsmen to get over the line

[Sooda]

^ Fair points I think. But who would come in and who would miss out. Id say Pathan for a paceman (Nehra). But can we honestly say that Nehra would deliver a better spell than Pathan would? He is not in great form. Had Praveen been fit it might have worked as he is a good ODI paceman and can bat a bit. Or would you play Ashwin instead of YP (as Ash is a better bowler and can bat a bit too) and have a 2 paceman plus 3 spin bowler attack? Given the presence of Yuvraj as well thatd be too many spinners. Technically India play a 6 +1 + 4 as YP is an allrounder.

[zen]

To expand on playing 5 bowlers: 1. We need 3 seamers for the power plays and bowling at the death. By playing 2+2 we all saw how we had to use a spinner in the last few overs. It's easier to hit 2 balls out of the park of a spinner 2. We also need two good spinners to pick wkts in the middle overs and not allow the opposition to milk them And we know that Sehwag, Tendulkar, Gambhir and Kohli are in top form. Dhoni (100 in the warm up against NZ), and Pathan (based on his performances against NZ and SA) are shaping up well too. Yuvi seems to be getting better. If Dhoni and one of Pathan, Yuvi or Raina, along with guys like Bhajji, Ashwin (if playing), can support the top 4 well, we would be ok with 6 batsmen. Playing 5 bowlers say Zak, Munna, Sree/Nehra, Bhajji and Ashwin/Chawla adds depth to our bowling. By playing an extra bowler, we are also giving ourselves an additional option to see if we can bowl more wkt taking balls and thus improve our chances of picking up more wkts :winky: