What does an opener do in his first inning in England?

[Holysmoke]

Take him to england, but keep him as a reserve opener. Jaffer and Karthik combo should be first choice. Infact, no, dont take him to England. Take Gambhir instead. Watching a series on tv while fully fit with all his mates playing live will hopefully be a kick up his ass, and he will regain a desire to do well. The problem with Sehwag right now is more mental than physical. It's his attitude. I hate questioning people's attitude, but i cannot help but question Sehwag's/

[Cricketics]

So which non minnow test series has Dravid won us single handedly? Can you name them please? Thanks.

its pretty dissapointing to see Indians have doubt about Rahul Dravid's ability , the person who has helped always to save Indian batting order in both forms of the game.. is this because ppl are obsessed with a specific player??

[Holysmoke]

its pretty dissapointing to see Indians have doubt about Rahul Dravid's ability ' date=' the person who has helped always to save Indian batting order in both forms of the game.. is this because ppl are obsessed with a specific player??[/quote']I think the key words in what he was trying to say were "Single Handedly"

[Bumper]

Bumper, I understand that you are no longer a SRT fan and probably justifiably so but you now come across extremely subjective when it comes to anything SRT and your posts are an exercise in revisionism and disparagement of his distinguished career. Coming back to your quote: Sehwag

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v Australia            9   18   1   846 195  155   76   49.76   2   3   2[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v England              9   14   1   418 106   84   76*  32.15   1   3   3[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v New Zealand          4    8   0   217 130   29   25   27.12   1   0   0[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v Pakistan             9   14   0  1276 309  254  201   91.14   4   2   1[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v South Africa         7   12   0   500 164  105   88   41.66   2   1   1[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v Sri Lanka            2    3   0    56  36   20    0   18.66   0   0   1[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v West Indies          7   12   0   643 180  147   65   53.58   2   2   1[/FONT]

Tendulkar

 
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v Australia            6   11   2   453 241*  60*  55   50.33   1   2   2[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v England             10   15   1   791 193  103   92   56.50   2   4   0[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v New Zealand          4    8   0   171  55   51   32   21.37   0   2   0[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v Pakistan             9   12   1   523 194*  94   52   47.54   1   3   0[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v South Africa         7   13   2   447 155   64   63   40.63   1   2   1[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v Sri Lanka            3    5   0   189 109   23   22   37.80   1   0   0[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]v West Indies          8   13   1   637 176  117   86   53.08   2   2   3[/FONT]

Tendulkar is way better than Sehwag against England and Sri Lanka and marginally better than Australia. Sehwag is marginally better than Tendulkar against RSA, NZ and WI and way better against Pak. It's not as clear cut as you would like us to believe. From reading your posts, it would seem as if SRT was averaging 30 and Sehwag 70. PS - away from home, Sehwag averages 48 and Tendulkar 49 (who according to you went into hiding against these opponents). Now I look forward to you belittling Tendulkar even further.

Gambit, i have been following both sehwag & Tendu's career closely in the last 5 years. Tendu's averages are very misleading as they are built on usually one or two (usually one big knock). Some examples: 2003 Aus Tour: Tendu scored only one decent knock 241 n.o yet averaged 50+ in that series. To me he was a failure in that series inspite of his 50+ average. Would u agree or not with that assessment ? Sehwag had several good knocks and ended up with pretty much the same avg. Clearly sehwag was the better bat of this series Same is true with the 2003-04 Pak tour: Sehwag was clearly the better batsman. Tendu still had a decent average because of his 194 n.o Then followed the BG trophy in which Sehwag was the lone warrior in our entire team. In the Ind-SA series that followed once again there was daylight of a difference between Sehwag & Tendu. Ind-BD'04 was Tendu's series in which he bashed the minnows to his highest test score. Ind-Pak'05 once again was Sehwag's series. Sehwag has failed only in the last two test series in which Tendu also was mediocre. As u can see in every key series that mattered it was Sehwag who stood out in the last 5 years. Averages wont convince me otherwise. In this particular debate, averages do LIE.

[Gambit]

its pretty dissapointing to see Indians have doubt about Rahul Dravid's ability ' date=' the person who has helped always to save Indian batting order in both forms of the game.. is this because ppl are obsessed with a specific player??[/quote'] What so disappointing about my question? yoda said us winning test series against non minnows is only dependant on Rahul Dravid. I asked him to cite instances of Dravid winning non minnow test series single handedly.

[The Outsider]

2003 Aus Tour: Tendu scored only one decent knock 241 n.o yet averaged 50+ in that series. To me he was a failure in that series inspite of his 50+ average. Would u agree or not with that assessment ?

In test cricket, one big knock is more likely to win you a match than several small ones. No doubt, Sehwag had a better Aussie tour but to say Tendulkar was a failure is rubbish.

Then followed the BG trophy in which Sehwag was the lone warrior in our entire team.

Ironically, it was Tendulkar's effort which won us the only test of the series though.

Sehwag has failed only in the last two test series in which Tendu also was mediocre.

Tendulkar was the second highest scorer in South Africa. If your point is that Sehwag has been better than Tendulkar over the last 3-4 years, fair enough. But over the last year, its clearly Tendulkar who has been the better batsman. Moreover, Tendulkar has the technique to scrape through some tough situations, Sehwag doesn't when he is out of form. Tendulkar also has a superb record in England.

[Gambit]

Gambit, i have been following both sehwag & Tendu's career closely in the last 5 years. Tendu's averages are very misleading as they are built on usually one or two (usually one big knock). Some examples: 2003 Aus Tour: Tendu scored only one decent knock 241 n.o yet averaged 50+ in that series. To me he was a failure in that series inspite of his 50+ average. Would u agree or not with that assessment ? Sehwag had several good knocks and ended up with pretty much the same avg. Clearly sehwag was the better bat of this series Same is true with the 2003-04 Pak tour: Sehwag was clearly the better batsman. Tendu still had a decent average because of his 194 n.o Then followed the BG trophy in which Sehwag was the lone warrior in our entire team. In the Ind-SA series that followed once again there was daylight of a difference between Sehwag & Tendu. Ind-BD'04 was Tendu's series in which he bashed the minnows to his highest test score. Ind-Pak'05 once again was Sehwag's series. Sehwag has failed only in the last two test series in which Tendu also was mediocre. As u can see in every key series that mattered it was Sehwag who stood out in the last 5 years. Averages wont convince me otherwise. In this particular debate, averages do LIE.

Ok, you have conceded that Tendulkar does not run away against better opponents something that you categorically stated a little while ago. And your point about Sehwag being much much better than SRT since he made his debut has been proved to be entirely false. And I also like the way you shift goalposts. First you compared the two from the time Sehwag made his debut. Now it's the last 4 years. What next? Last 2 hours? LOL. How ironic is it that you use the one good score per series argument to make a case against SRT and for Sehwag?! Against Australia in Australia he had 2 100+ scores from 8 innings. Same as SRT. The lone warrior against Australia in India in 04 had only two 50+ scores from 8 innings. Ind - Pak '05 Sehwag filled his boots in the first and third test which we drew. SRT made twin 50s, playing second fiddle to twin 100s by RD, in a test we won. What was Sehwag's contribution in that? Same goes for the only test we won against Aus in India in 2004.(I am using your line of reasoning that you apply to SRT about scoring when it matters etc) In WI last year, Sehwag had only 2 50+ knocks from 7 innings. So what was the point about one big knock per series again? :hysterical:

Sehwag has failed only in the last two test series in which Tendu also was mediocre.

Average of 18 against SL, 19 against England and 14 against RSA. That's three complete failures.

[dial_100]

I dont ...#$#@ care if he is picked up for this tour or not, he will fail for sure. I hate his technique yaar. Test cricket is about technique. You cant go long with the kind of technique and termperament Sehwag has. He has sailed long enough for his career. He will be picked for this series and heck we will play with 1 short batsman once again. And Keep SRT bashing on guys.... I am enjoying it.... it will be more fun when he plays good in Eng series.

[Guest dada_rocks]

we should take him to eng.. i dont have much expectation from Jaffer-Karthik pair...

English may not drop lollypop catch which karthik offers early in the inning .. Sehwag's catch too goes towards slip but more often than not it flies like bullet hence less likely to be pouched. And once sehwag crosses the 20-30 run jitter, century usually is there for taking.

[The Outsider]

By many people's "scoring when matters" argument Sehwag's 195 at Melbourne and 203 at Bangalore were useless innings.

[Cricketics]

Sehwag's 195, a useless knock?? who thinkz that?? o come on.. i was there in aus that time, whole of australia were mad and amazed at same time of how this guy was hitting fours and sixes all around the ground.. it was day one, and aussies had never witnessed such treatment from long long time. on day one in aussie homeland we were over 300+ and it was so called boxing day test..

[yoda]

So which non minnow test series has Dravid won us single handedly? Can you name them please? Thanks.

I am not talking single-handedly. I am talking about being "the man" batting wise, obviously supported by the bowlers. Recent WI away series win after 35 years is one such instance. Dravid has failed as well of late, but if I were to even give a guy a remote chance of playing series winning innings it would be him. Why? Because he puts a prize on his wicket unlike Sehwag and still knows how to play/leave the good ones unlike SRT.

[Dhondy]

Without Sehwag, India will get trashed big time in England. With him, they stand a chance. I don't see Jaffer and Kartick getting beyond 20 runs as a pair.

[Bumper]

RE: Gambit >>Ok, you have conceded that Tendulkar does not run away against better opponents something that you categorically stated a little while ago. And your point about Sehwag being much much better than SRT since he made his debut has been proved to be entirely false. Entirely false ? I just listed most of the BIG series in which both played in the last 5 years. Sehwag was Man of the series in atleast 3 of them. Your hero was a BIG ZERO with an average only bloated by ONE BIG SCORE per series, bloated even further by not outs. >>And I also like the way you shift goalposts. First you compared the two from the time Sehwag made his debut. Now it's the last 4 years. What next? Last 2 hours? The discussion was started by CC based on my reputation claims. And i was countering that claim with a subjective response. Once u stepped in, it took a new turn. In my response, I picked the last 5 years (since the beginning of 2003), which is long enuff a time period to assess both players as test bats, starting with Ind-NZ series (in which both flopped). I ignored the series in which both players performed below average as there aint much to read into such performances. What exactly is wrong with the 5 year time frame ? Methinks, u are focussing on the wrong details to make your hero look bigger than he is. And how 5 years is comparable to 2 hours is simply beyond me!! >>LOL. How ironic is it that you use the one good score per series argument to make a case against SRT and for Sehwag?! >>Against Australia in Australia he had 2 100+ scores from 8 innings. Same as SRT. The lone warrior against >>Australia in India in 04 had only two 50+ scores from 8 innings. Sehwag's scores Down Under'03: 45, 47, 47, 195, 11, 72, 47 He may have just had two 50+ scores. But he hardly failed. Besides he scored in each test match Tendu's scores Down Under'03: 0, 1, 37, 0, 44, 241*, 60* Tendu raised to the occassion in only ONE test match. His two 50+ scores merely serve to satisfy many's statistical appetite. As a batsman he had LITTLE impact on the series. Based on these numbers whom do u think is a better batsman in this series ? Sehwag or Tendu ? In Oct'04, Sehwag was the only bat who got off to a start in most innings and the only bat who showed some fight. >>Ind - Pak '05 Sehwag filled his boots in the first and third test which we drew. SRT made twin 50s, playing second >>fiddle to twin 100s by RD, in a test we won. What was Sehwag's contribution in that? Same goes for the only test >>we won against Aus in India in 2004.(I am using your line of reasoning that you apply to SRT about scoring when it >>matters etc) THIS debate isnt about, who played the most influential knocks in winning test matches. This rather is about who was the better batsman in the last 5 years. I believe, Sehwag was the MoS in Ind-Pak'05. If Tendu had played the knocks RD did in the test we won, atleast u'd have some ammunition. On this one, the debate does not even start. Sehwag was miles ahead of Tendu as a batsman. >>In WI last year, Sehwag had only 2 50+ knocks from 7 innings. So what was the point about one big knock per series >>again? Did Tendu also play in the series by any chance. Unless both played in the series, on what basis do we compare them ? Whichever way u twist it, sehwag was clearly the better batsman in the last 5 years

[Predator_05]

Whichever way u twist it' date=' sehwag was clearly the better batsman in the last 5 years[/quote'] Who gives a damn ? Tendulkar was never the same after the tennis elbow injury in '04, and coincidentally Sehwag reached the peak of his powers during that same time as he was still an unknown quantity in Test cricket and bowlers didn't know what to do with him. Obvious isn't it ? That little study of yours doesn't take anything away from Tendulkar, nor does it portray Sehwag as a better player.

[yoda]

How about they both suck? :giggle:

[veer]

:haha::haha: comparing SRT with Veeru..

[Bumper]

In test cricket, one big knock is more likely to win you a match than several small ones.

I dont disagree that one big knock is likely to win u a game than several small ones. But to use such not out knocks to quote a 50+ avg (which gives u an impression of consistency) is what i found misleading.

No doubt, Sehwag had a better Aussie tour but to say Tendulkar was a failure is rubbish.

Do u reckon Sehwag (who scored 250+ in the first test, followed by no shows in the next 2 games) in Ind-Pak'06 a success or failure ? Perhaps if the big knock was as great as Dravid's 240 at Adelaide, u could excuse other failures. Otherwise failures look like the norm with that one big score being an oddity.

Tendulkar was the second highest scorer in South Africa.

Him finishing second or third says a lot about our batsman in SA. I reckon he had a very average series while Sehwag had a poor series.

If your point is that Sehwag has been better than Tendulkar over the last 3-4 years, fair enough. But over the last year, its clearly Tendulkar who has been the better batsman. Moreover, Tendulkar has the technique to scrape through some tough situations, Sehwag doesn't when he is out of form. Tendulkar also has a superb record in England.

Tendulkar's technique is overrated going by his recent exploits. He has scored runs in the recent past only on the flattest of tracks against friendly bowling attacks. When the ball does something him & Sehwag are on a level plane surface and because of his defensive instincts he may fail with a poorer score.

[CC1981]

Baloney sausage. Totally irrelevant points.

No they are not. I am responding to the comment that if Tendulkar can be picked on reputation, why not Sehwag. Note that i've not said that Tendulkar should be picked on reputation- i've been on record saying that if Tendy fails in England, he should be dropped. I've only challenged the ludicrous notion that Tendulkar and Sehwag's reputation are anywhere comparable.

[Gambit]

Entirely false ? I just listed most of the BIG series in which both played in the last 5 years. Sehwag was Man of the series in atleast 3 of them. Your hero was a BIG ZERO with an average only bloated by ONE BIG SCORE per series, bloated even further by not outs.

First of all, your tall claim of Sehwag being MUCH better than SRT since his debut has been torn to shreds and so has your other claim of SRT not showing up against big opponents. What was your laughable quote again?

(During this time, Tendy has predominantly been a minnow basher making mince meat of the mighty Bangles while promptly hiding when better opponents showed up).

:hysterical: Deny all you want, you were proven to be completely wrong here. Secondly since Sehwag's debut, SRT has outperformed him against RSA away '01, England home '01, England away '02, WI home '02, NZ away '02, SL '05 and RSA '07. (7 series) Sehwag has outperformed SRT in Aus home '04, Pak away '04, Pak home '05, Pak away '06 and RSA home '04(5 series) They are comparable in Aus away '03. So what were you saying again?

In my response, I picked the last 5 years (since the beginning of 2003), which is long enuff a time period to assess both players as test bats, starting with Ind-NZ series (in which both flopped). I ignored the series in which both players performed below average as there aint much to read into such performances.

Why 2003? Why not since Sehwag's debut as you claimed which prompted me to step in to relieve you of your misconceptions?

>>Against Australia in Australia he had 2 100+ scores from 8 innings. Same as SRT. The lone warrior against >>Australia in India in 04 had only two 50+ scores from 8 innings. Sehwag's scores Down Under'03: 45, 47, 47, 195, 11, 72, 47 He may have just had two 50+ scores. But he hardly failed. Besides he scored in each test match Tendu's scores Down Under'03: 0, 1, 37, 0, 44, 241*, 60* Tendu raised to the occassion in only ONE test match. His two 50+ scores merely serve to satisfy many's statistical appetite. As a batsman he had LITTLE impact on the series. Based on these numbers whom do u think is a better batsman in this series ? Sehwag or Tendu ?

Hmm. Given your love for your fanciful "crunch situations", wouldn't SRT be the winner given he stepped up in the most crucial test of them all i.e. the 4th one when the series was grippingly locked at 1-1? And it's not like SRT made 6 ducks in a row. He made 37 in the 4th inning at Adelaide and 44 in the 3rd inning at MCG.

In Oct'04, Sehwag was the only bat who got off to a start in most innings and the only bat who showed some fight.

And that proves what exactly? By that measure, Tendulkar is the greatest ever hands down given how our lineup used to cave in with alarming regularity. BTW showing some fight means just 2 50+ knocks from 8 innings with an average bolstered by a 10 odd not out? When Tendulkar does the same, you chasten him!

THIS debate isnt about, who played the most influential knocks in winning test matches.

Oh really? But didn't you say this in this very thread?!

If anything I'd argue sehwag has a better case for being picked on reputation, because he has a MUCH BETTER match winning potential AT THIS POINT than Tendulkar.

which basically amounts to saying who plays the more influential knock doesn't it? Bizarre!

This rather is about who was the better batsman in the last 5 years. I believe, Sehwag was the MoS in Ind-Pak'05. If Tendu had played the knocks RD did in the test we won, atleast u'd have some ammunition. On this one, the debate does not even start. Sehwag was miles ahead of Tendu as a batsman.

I have never claimed Tendulkar to be better than Sehwag in the last 5 years. I have, however, shot down your ridiculous claim for SRT not performing against bigger opponents. Like I said earlier, you were making it out to be as if SRT was averaging 30 and Sehwag 70! It's safe to say those 'facts' of yours have been blown apart! :hahaha::saint:

Whichever way u twist it, sehwag was clearly the better batsman in the last 5 years

I am twisting....at that comment of yours. :hysterical: Clearly indeed! It is blatantly clear that we are not going to agree on SRT ever. You show a complete disregard for his achievements and I hold him in great regard but also temper that the view that should he fail in England, he should be dropped.