ganeshran Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 No' date=' The chinese will have an inherently inferior technology since they just copy or reverse engineer from others. There is no innovation going into any of their crap.[/quote'] Can we just generalize all of their air force as crap? I mean they are known to employ the dirtiest of tricks and underhand tactics to acquire technical know-how, but they have been stealing from the experts in the field And they have scale and resources on their side. Even if J-10 turns out to be utter crap, they can mass produce hundreds and claw some sort of advantage using numerical superiority. Not sure which one you are talking about. There is a F35 stealth fighter right now - not operational right now IIRC, but the F-22 Raptor is already being used by USAF. The US however doesnt allow the Raptor to be sold to anyone. Even if they do in the future, I doubt it would be offered to India
ganeshran Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 Brah you are not getting the point, no one wants the Eurofighter. It is a very expensive toy. The europeans are just trying to recover their costs, they will throw in a factory in Germany if you want. :haha: Ya, Costwise EFT will be at a disadvantage as there is a clear cost difference between it and Rafale (not sure about exact numbers).
Guest Gunner Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Ya' date=' Costwise EFT will be at a disadvantage as there is a clear cost difference between it and Rafale (not sure about exact numbers).[/quote'] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Costs Here some info from Wiki. This is why I said no one wants to touch this plane.
Guest Gunner Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 The total european offtake including all three tranches is 559 aricrafts which at 90 mill works out to total revenue of 50 bill. This is not even enough to cover the costs of UK. They can't do much with this.
ravishingravi Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 Reading this thread I feel enlightened. You guys do follow this kind of stuff.
Guest Gunner Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 Can we just generalize all of their air force as crap? I mean they are known to employ the dirtiest of tricks and underhand tactics to acquire technical know-how, but they have been stealing from the experts in the field And they have scale and resources on their side. Even if J-10 turns out to be utter crap, they can mass produce hundreds and claw some sort of advantage using numerical superiority. The russians have a famous expression "quantity has a quality of its own". This is also the mantra of the chinese. Their planes and their airforce is bullcrap but can they cause a lot of damage to us, yes they can throw the numbers at us. Secondly, China's military doctrine towards India is not about engaging in an aerial war of this nature with us. They will essentially pound us with MRBMs which they have positioned in Tibet and once they have softened us enough (and they will) then establish air superiority over India. So from that perspective the discussion about whether their airforce is crap or not is moot. Not sure which one you are talking about. There is a F35 stealth fighter right now - not operational right now IIRC' date=' but the F-22 Raptor is already being used by USAF. The US however doesnt allow the Raptor to be sold to anyone. Even if they do in the future, I doubt it would be offered to India [/quote'] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II I am talking about this aircraft, this is an MMRCA. This is a more expensive toy than the F22 raptor although it has a different role. The F22 fills the role of the F16s. They will sell the F22s in a few years once the USAF has enough in its arsenal to take down anyone. If we had bought the FA18, the US would have invited India to be one of its partners in one of the two programmes (like the Israelis and the Europeans). It is not a question of buying stuff of the shelf for India anymore but more about being a Partner in the development phase. From a purely commercial point of view being a "partner" these days means that they have runaway costs (like the F35) and they think you have deep enough pockets to pay a part of it.
ganeshran Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 The russians have a famous expression "quantity has a quality of its own". This is also the mantra of the chinese. Their planes and their airforce is bullcrap but can they cause a lot of damage to us, yes they can throw the numbers at us. Secondly, China's military doctrine towards India is not about engaging in an aerial war of this nature with us. They will essentially pound us with MRBMs which they have positioned in Tibet and once they have softened us enough (and they will) then establish air superiority over India. So from that perspective the discussion about whether their airforce is crap or not is moot. :agree: Chinese numerical superiority will certainly come into play if the war is not very short, or if they open a second front other than Arunachal Pradesh. That is why I believe we should modify our nuclear doctrine to bring the nuclear option on the table. Its most unlikely that we would actually use it, but not ruling out its possibility increases the diplomatic/economic cost of an armed conflict. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II I am talking about this aircraft, this is an MMRCA. This is a more expensive toy than the F22 raptor although it has a different role. The F22 fills the role of the F16s. They will sell the F22s in a few years once the USAF has enough in its arsenal to take down anyone. If we had bought the FA18, the US would have invited India to be one of its partners in one of the two programmes (like the Israelis and the Europeans). It is not a question of buying stuff of the shelf for India anymore but more about being a Partner in the development phase. From a purely commercial point of view being a "partner" these days means that they have runaway costs (like the F35) and they think you have deep enough pockets to pay a part of it. Awesome plane :woot: But I doubt if IAF is keen on buying jets from the US, given its past cooperation with the PAF. This partner funda is cool, allows countries to subsidize their development costs and interested nations to "book" planes in advance
Guest Gunner Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 :agree: Chinese numerical superiority will certainly come into play if the war is not very short' date=' or if they open a second front other than Arunachal Pradesh. That is why I believe we should modify our nuclear doctrine to bring the nuclear option on the table. Its most unlikely that we would actually use it, but not ruling out its possibility increases the diplomatic/economic cost of an armed conflict.[/quote'] We have a no first use policy only against Pakistan. :winky: The Americans have a very stringent policy on these co-development programmes, under US law you wouldn't be able to sell it to anyone. One of the reason why we are unable to buy the arrow defense system from the israelis.
ganeshran Posted June 22, 2011 Author Posted June 22, 2011 Lockheed Martin may re-enter the deal and offer us the F-35 :woot: If it happens, would be an amazing thing as the F35 is actually more advanced in some aspects than the F22 (overall F22 ranks far higher). http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/lockheed-martin-to-re-enter-11-bn-indian-deal-with-f-35-stealth-fighter/articleshow/8945476.cms PARIS: India's status as a cherry in the global defence and aerospace segment has been underlined again as Lockheed Martin , one of the global defence majors who tried in vain for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, has been quoted as being hopeful of re-entering the race for the $11-billion deal. The US defence major's continued hope for the Indian defence deal is seen by experts here as reflective of the intensity of global competition to catch a piece of the Indian defence pie, but it is learnt that Lockheed's chances of a re-entry into the race is only speculative at the moment. Lockheed vice-president for corporate strategy and business development, Patrick Dewar, was quoted as saying that the company's chances of offering the F-35 stealth fighter for the MMRCA deal had improved when the US senate armed services committee asked the defence department to study the feasibility of a joint strike fighter sale to India. Lockheed officials at the Paris Air Show here said the statement should be considered of a "draft" nature. "This is a governmental decision, on what aircraft to offer to countries. He (Dewar) was referring to a draft language in a senate bill", Lockheed director of F-35 communication, Michael J Rein told ET. Rein said the company was not in discussion with the Indian government on the matter. A reversal of the combat aircraft selection process is considered unlikely as analysts are already saying that such a step would be considered to be succumbing to US pressure, overlooking technical merits of the competing aircraft. Lockheed, which has a fleet of proven combat aircraft, including the F-16, lost out to Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault's Rafale in the MMRCA race. Typhoon and Rafale are both on display at the air show here, and the European companies are hoping to hear from India the final word on the winner in about a month. Defence and aerospace officials here say that the defeat in the combat aircraft race in India need not be a complete setback for the US defence sector, considering that the arming of India promises attractive downstream business opportunities, including technology solutions for India's defence sector in the coming years. While India has decided on one of the European aircraft - Typhoon or Rafale - to lead its airstrike power in the immediate future, global aerospace majors are also tapping opportunities in the Chinese market. Boeing on Tuesday announced the opening of an innovation centre in Shaanxi Province in China, in association with Aviation Industry Corporation of China. The AVIC-Boeing venture is expected to enhance Boeing's production system by increasing AVIC's efficiency and capacity to supply high-quality parts for Boeing aircraft.
achilles Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 These planes are really good. Hope we make the best deal.
cowboysfan Posted June 23, 2011 Posted June 23, 2011 india needs better ICBMs as an effective deterrent to china than these planes which will never be used anyway.
Clarke Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 Baniyas :desiman: gonna open the bids today EADS & Dassault employees/shareholders reportedly in church :antijinx:
jairamesh Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 Manned Combat Aircraft are out of date philosophy, in other words "so yesterday". Already the US has admitted it's current JSF F-35 program will be their LAST manned combat aircraft developed. Their concentration is on drones. The future of aviation combat/surveillance/defense is: It's better to spend the R&D in Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) which can provide better flexibility for border patrols and stealth strike capability, and also even a loss of UAV behind enemy lines does not compromise the pilot ("joystick handler", incidentally it takes a team of 3-4 to handle one UAV hence loss of job for a pilot is a non-argument) or the circumstantial evidence for covert missions (as UAVs lost in behind enemy lines are set off for self-destruct). This 11 billion is a huge waste capital as strategy behind manned aircraft for future combat is becoming an inferior strategy against UAVs. The French (Rafale) and Europeans (Tyhpoon) ain't stupid, trying to offload a dying breed. Have a look at the Rafale and Typhoon manufacturing bases, they have scaled back big time, even the European countries have cutback their orders.
surajmal Posted November 5, 2011 Posted November 5, 2011 India needs to bridge the technological gap and that is why there are going after western aircrafts. MMRCA (+ LCA) followed by PAKFA and AMCA will be the last manned combat aircraft in the chain. After that it should be the age of UCAVs. India has a drone project underway by the name of Rustom (supposed to be the equivalent of predator) and they have had a prototype tested already (for instrument testing). So the final prototype should come online in the next couple of years.
Anonymous Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 BUMP Rafale WINS... http://ibnlive.in.com/news/rafale-wins--104-bn-iaf-deal-to-supply-126-jets/225921-3.html
Clarke Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Good for the french, their first export success of the bird and a big one. Lets see how much this costs, surely way more than $10 billion initially planned.
hari504504 Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Wonder if there are hidden conditions to pressure them to stop French submarine sales to Pak...
Clarke Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 ^^ That sounds ridiculous! I mean Pak Bahrya considered the French/German options but chose the best, the Chinese (who else would give soft loans) .. They have such brilliant tailunt that would put HAL/DRDO etc to shame! I mean, just look at their first helicopter, you think Dhruv/LCH can stand next to it ? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WawXzU8IcxA]Helicopter made in Pakistan. Û�یÙ„ÛŒ کاپٹرمیڈاÙ† پاکستاÙ† - YouTube[/ame] Key features: - No runway for takeoff - No runway for landing - Pani pe bhi land karega - Pani se bhi takeoff karega - Alhamdulillah top notch, comparable to any (Lockheed/Boeing included) Beat that IAF!
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