SachDan Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 :omg: how did ya guess?? nope i started watching cricket in 1995 just before Wills WC... i was 6 yrs old den :--D however while i saw azhar in the late 90's i saw him dropping a few catches though he was great in ground fielding and so i said not too great... :beee: i am not here to prove my point by showing statistics like ICFers like rett and vibhash and others do cause i believe that statistics don't speak the whole story... having watched the game since 1995 and watching all INDIAN test matches without miss i have seen the way RD and LAX approach their innings under pressure and the same time i never critcized sachin for that but in my opinion i liked more number of innings played by the other guys better under pressure... yes some by sachin too but if u ask me to give statistics i am not gonna search for those as my opinion is purely based on all those games i tirelessly saw on tv and in the stadiums and not on mere stats which sometimes dont show the whole picture
carnish Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 And how often have the others done it? :hmmm: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=runs;result=1;team=6;template=results;type=batting Dravid hasn't made a 4th innings 50 in 5 years now. This has been the time when we have chased some of our highest totals in test cricket. No issues with having Laxman at number 1 in such situations because he deserves it but not Dravid. To group them together is unfair on Laxman. Dravid hasn't actually played a great 4th innings knock in his career - Kandy and Ad were good rather than great knocks. Check out the scorecards and see the contributions... http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1701070&postcount=3 Before the WI series this year, he hadn't made a hundred outside India (ex Bang) since 2006. I wonder how many people are even aware of these numbers. You can bet that Tendulkar would get massive attention if he had the same numbers. Agree with ya completely... dravid isnt reliable to take india to a win in tests... and about his not getting a century outside india since 2006... he was terribly out of form between 2007- 2009... he just got back to form in west indies series this year and look what he did in england... form is temporary, class is permanent:--D
carnish Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 This is what I have been saying in so many other posts. The keyboard warriors have really started that rage agianst Sachin now' date=' stating that Dravid played in tough condiotions in England and Sachin failed. What they don't realize is that Sachin has been scoring runs in the same tough conditions when Dravid was faltering. I have nothing against Dravid, but this [b']Sachin bashing , when Dravid scores,is what I hate. no one here is bashing sachin... atleast not me... i have never said a single word against him... if you guess that from my comparisions between him and laxman you are wrong. I just said having rahul and laxman are better than him.... doesnot mean what i am saying is Sachin bashing... For sachin fanatics anyone praising any other batsman in the team is sachin bashing for such people ... :finger:
daryl1985 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 The only decent 4th Innings knock that Dravid has played in his entire career has to be the unbeaten 70 Odd against Australia in Adelaide yet for some reason he still remains the Crisis Man for some folks . Dravid got out for 4 runs while chasing 387 where Tendulkar hit a Ton yet seems like this never happened at all . If Dravid had played a similar knock with Sachin getting out for 4 runs then this match would have been remembered till end of this world . That match will always be remembered anyway. One of my biggest dislikes on ICF is that people always feel that they have to discredit one player in order to give credit to another.
vamos_rafa Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 no one here is bashing sachin... atleast not me... i have never said a single word against him... if you guess that from my comparisions between him and laxman you are wrong. I just said having rahul and laxman are better than him.... doesnot mean what i am saying is Sachin bashing... For sachin fanatics anyone praising any other batsman in the team is sachin bashing for such people ... :finger: I can see that you are pretty young.
vamos_rafa Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 That match will always be remembered anyway. One of my biggest dislikes on ICF is that people always feel that they have to discredit one player in order to give credit to another. Yes and they give all kinds of stats to prove it. Sometimes it does irritate.
Cricket Tragic Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Agree with ya completely... dravid isnt reliable to take india to a win in tests... and about his not getting a century outside india since 2006... he was terribly out of form between 2007- 2009... he just got back to form in west indies series this year and look what he did in england... form is temporary' date=' class is permanent:--D[/quote'] But you said that he was great under pressure and that 4th inn = pressure. :cantstop: Alright, check the numbers since 2009 in 4th innings since that is the only pressure situation according to some people. They will be terrible I can assure you. Like I said, he hasn't really played a truly great 4th inn knock while Laxman has multiple ones. You can't group them together because that would be unfair on Laxman. Dravid's chasing record isn't great even in ODIs. I used that example to show how some things go under the radar. I can bet that most people even on ICF were not aware of those numbers. 2nd inn stats are abused far too often. 10 years from now, some one will use 2nd inn stats which shows that Tendulkar outperformed Dravid in England this summer. :hysterical:
Sachin=GOD Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Nice. Without a doubt that 96 by VVS will be ranked very high on the list of great Test knocks given no one else crossed 39 from both sides in 4 combined innings on a seamer friendly track. It is worth it weight in gold given that it is the only Test we won on the tour of SA which helped us draw the series and thus retain the No.1 Test slot. To me an argument can be made this to be the 2nd best Test knock in Indian cricket history after that inarguable 281 all things considered. No wonder Laxman has the most unique initials in all of sports embedded in his name - VVS - Very Very Special. Exactly. Anyone who watched that Mohali 73* could make out VVS that day looked like he exactly knew what he was doing cool as a cucumber and played genuine cricket shots at almost run a ball while selectively shielding Ishant when he could see the finish line. It is one of the most calculated run chases and finishes as it turned out to be in the end when one analyzes it easily making it another of the great Test knocks in Indian Test cricket history. It is silly to even debate if it is a pressure situation or if it qualifes as one. It sure was once it got down to around 175 odd for 8 and the partnership with Ishant flourishing. The way VVS managed the run chase while getting the last 40-45 runs and getting India to the finish line surely has to be to be one of the best moments ever in Indian cricket which again helped us maintain that No.1 ranking where a loss there could have had an impact on the No.1 ranking. That is very true though given the quality of attack and team felling like nine pins around him and to score 167 out of 250 odd qualifies as a brilliant knock for just the sheer nature of extraordinary shot making. And you will not be alone in that line of thought. One could go no wrong while rating RD or VVS over SRT as their personal choice for Tests given what they have done throughout their brilliant careers in varying conditions and match situations. Ok.
Raghav_12 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 2nd inn stats are abused far too often. 10 years from now, some one will use 2nd inn stats which shows that Tendulkar outperformed Dravid in England this summer. :hysterical: Indeed. I would add that 4th innings average are abused even more. Any T,D and H would jump to 4th innnings average to show how good or bad a batsman is for under pressure situations. They don't realize that 4th innings sample size is so small, that talking abount statistical parameters is absurd. In total Sachin has scored just 10% of his runs in 4th innings ( many other batsmen 10-15%) and to define a batsman on basis of just 10-15% of his runs is unfair. Another point is because of this small sample size, statistical parameters, batting average, may change very quickly in one or two innings. For example, hypothetically speaking, if Sachin goes on to score a 130* in fourth innings at Wankhede in next test match. His 4th innings average will shoot up to 44 from current sub 40. So what that will show? Sachin remained poor in 4th innings for 22 years of 24-25 years long career. But ended up being a great 4th innings bat..!! Argument is not about Sachin being good 4th innings bat but about highlighting fallacy of using 4th innings batting average as parameter to judge batsmen.
carnish Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Indeed. I would add that 4th innings average are abused even more. Any T,D and H would jump to 4th innnings average to show how good or bad a batsman is for under pressure situations. They don't realize that 4th innings sample size is so small, that talking abount statistical parameters is absurd. In total Sachin has scored just 10% of his runs in 4th innings ( many other batsmen 10-15%) and to define a batsman on basis of just 10-15% of his runs is unfair. Another point is because of this small sample size, statistical parameters, batting average, may change very quickly in one or two innings. For example, hypothetically speaking, if Sachin goes on to score a 130* in fourth innings at Wankhede in next test match. His 4th innings average will shoot up to 44 from current sub 40. So what that will show? Sachin remained poor in 4th innings for 22 years of 24-25 years long career. But ended up being a great 4th innings bat..!! Argument is not about Sachin being good 4th innings bat but about highlighting fallacy of using 4th innings batting average as parameter to judge batsmen. true enough... seeing the two innings bhajji played with laxman against newzealand in the 3rd or 4th innings it must have boosted his average too but that can't mean he is better... point taken:--D
mishra Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Most of the fourth inning toppers are opener batsmen. Which makes sense
CSK Fan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 look at the average in 4th innings.... vvs 100 sachin 72... dat speaks it all for the man in crisis for india...:hatsoff: But Sachin scored more runs in more matches, doesnt that count? would you rahter someone score winning 100s for 2 match or winning 50 for 5 match? Who is better?
CSK Fan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 And you will not be alone in that line of thought. One could go no wrong while rating RD or VVS over SRT as their personal choice for Tests given what they have done throughout their brilliant careers in varying conditions and match situations. Exactly. Anyone who watched that Mohali 73* could make out VVS that day looked like he exactly knew what he was doing cool as a cucumber and played genuine cricket shots at almost run a ball while selectively shielding Ishant when he could see the finish line. It is one of the most calculated run chases and finishes as it turned out to be in the end when one analyzes it easily making it another of the great Test knocks in Indian Test cricket history. It is silly to even debate if it is a pressure situation or if it qualifes as one. It sure was once it got down to around 175 odd for 8 and the partnership with Ishant flourishing. The way VVS managed the run chase while getting the last 40-45 runs and getting India to the finish line surely has to be to be one of the best moments ever in Indian cricket which again helped us maintain that No.1 ranking where a loss there could have had an impact on the No.1 ranking. That is very true though given the quality of attack and team felling like nine pins around him and to score 167 out of 250 odd qualifies as a brilliant knock for just the sheer nature of extraordinary shot making. Nice. Without a doubt that 96 by VVS will be ranked very high on the list of great Test knocks given no one else crossed 39 from both sides in 4 combined innings on a seamer friendly track. It is worth it weight in gold given that it is the only Test we won on the tour of SA which helped us draw the series and thus retain the No.1 Test slot. To me an argument can be made this to be the 2nd best Test knock in Indian cricket history after that inarguable 281 all things considered. No wonder Laxman has the most unique initials in all of sports embedded in his name - VVS - Very Very Special. Ok
Guest BossBhai Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 -- Removed on request of the user --
Guest BossBhai Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 -- Removed on request of the user --
Trichromatic Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I am not generally as much interested in batting averages as much I am interested in players dominating and thumping the opposition. The "peak prowess" ( ability to perform at the best from) of players is my criteria for evaluation, provided the players are reltively consistant throughout their career and have better than 45 average. For me it is Viv - Viv was ranked world no 1 batsman for nine calender years. Sachin - 4 years. When Viv got into peak form, it was a nightmare series for bowlers, he scored 829 in one series at the peak of his prowess. In 1976, Richards scored 1710 runs at the average of 90! Viv's ability to peak was phenomenal and would score at a rapid pace ( when compared to other good batsmen of his time). His only weakness perhaps was that he was so arrogant a batsman that he would sometimes loose his wicket to relatively weaker bowlers and did not put such a big price on his wicket, otherwise we do not know what he would have achieved. Perhaps he could afford to play like that, given the strength of WI bowling. Viv was also at his best in WSC, a very competitive tour. Sachin was consistant, but can't remember him taking an entire test series by storm and demolishing the opposition completely, like scoring 600 or 700 runs one or more times in test series. The peak form of Sachin never came close to that of Viv's peak in test matches. I guess there are very few great players who never scored 500+ runs in a series and Sachin is one of them. Once upon a time way back in ... erm 2010 a certain batsman made 1562 runs at a avg of 78 ... but pls continue dont let facts bother you. SRT scored 1792 runs 30 Nov 2001 to 30 Oct 2002 1722 runs from 17 Jan 2010 to 2 Jan 2011 :winky:
ganeshran Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 He also holds the record for scoring most runs without getting dismissed. 497 IIRC
carnish Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 you talked about it in post#831 (see quote below ) which is why I asked you that question. Nope not even that .... its about batting under pressure. So to get out of the pickle what you have done is quietly shifted the goal post to a position where you feel you can defend your opinion in a better way. Its a tried and tested strategy here. The thing is a batsman can be under pressure for a variety of reasons in any of the 2 innings. Being a team game the end result is not entirely in your hands and simple common sense tells that a batsman batting lower down the order will have more chances to be there at the end. It in itself cannot be a deciding criteria to determine batting. If so then a whole bunch of great openers and top order batsmen will simply not qualify. The second problem is that a inngs like 136 gets no credit for batting under pressure. Again anybody who watched that inngs will tell you that it was one heck of a inngs under very trying circumstances. To say that it doesnt count is being dishonest. I mean do you really think the pressure really started only when there were just 16 more runs to get in that chase ? The point is the end result cannot suddenly make the batsman as someone who cannot contribute in the 4th inngs. Especially for performances in the 3rd inngs. I mean how do you know at the end of that 3rd inngs whether the batsman has scored a match winning knock ? You cannot unless you are clairvoyant. Only after the 4th inngs has ended will you be able to judge. Heck the greatest inngs of all time - VVS 281 - would have been consigned as a inngs that saved the match had it not been Tendulkars 3 very crucial wickets. Just think about it. Going back to your list any reason why you left out Tendulkars 155 ? Selective thinking perhaps as MTC , CT , akshay and others have explained in a much better way ? okay so you have a problem is because i mentioned about sachin's centuries... this is where you people misjudge comments... i referred to his centuries just cause its a lot easier to find those statistics(just a lil lazy) but really speaking 4th innings matches india won... sachin has 1 hundred(chennai vs eng) and 4 half centuries... out of 18 innings which is pretty good but all of these five innings came after 2007... i.e. after 18 years of his career... and before he got that 100 against Eng(superb knock) he just had one 50 in the 4th innings for win games. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;result=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings next you have talked about third innings knocks under pressure in winning causes that lead to indian wins... sachin in third innings for india has 2 centuries and 3 fifties in 19 innings when india have won... the 155 vs Australia in chennai is one we all remember where he smashed warne... but i will rate the one at mumbai(52) in that low scoring game much higher than that. but apart from that the others were not much under pressure as india were in easy positions. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=3;orderby=start;result=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings matches where india have played to save a test match.... drawn games for india 4th innings... sachin just 1 century and no 50's and that century was way back in 1990 against ENG http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=start;result=4;template=results;type=batting;view=innings the games we haven't been able to save... the matches india lost...4th innings.. sachin has scored 1 century and 3 50's... we know the heartbreak in chennai when sachin failed to take india over the line against PAK was his onli such century, two out of three such half centuries didnt touch 60 in whitewash series against ENG(2011) and AUS(1999)... http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=start;result=2;template=results;type=batting;view=innings the only credit due for sachin is his third innings performance in losing causes which is pretty impressive boosted by two great centuries when we were thrashed by south africa recently in centurion and nagpur in the last two series against them http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=3;orderby=start;result=2;template=results;type=batting;view=innings Now about LAXMAN's stats... Won games for INDIA.... 4th innings.... 8 innings he has played... 4 times crossed 50 including one 100... one time notout... and he got out at adelaide once after getting 38 when india was at 221 chasing 233 to win... thats not a failure by any means... average of 100... http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30750.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;result=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings won games for india... 3rd innings... 16 knocks for VVS... 8 times above 50 including one 100(281 vs AUS)... 8 failures... so bad on that front... however average of 58 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30750.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=3;orderby=start;result=1;template=results;type=batting;view=innings saved matches... 4th innings... 9 innings for VVS... 6 not outs... and one inns he was out he got 69... and out of 9 times 6 times he stayed there to ensure the draw... average of 79 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30750.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=start;result=4;template=results;type=batting;view=innings saved matches... 3rd innings... 16 knocks for VVS... average of 99... 8 scores above 50 including 2 centuries... 8 scores below 50 out of which on two occasions he remained not out... http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30750.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=3;orderby=start;result=4;template=results;type=batting;view=innings His result is pathetic in lost games though which shows that more often than not when lacchhuu fails India fail.. He has an avg of 30 and 22 in 3rd and 4th innings of matches india lost respectively, with just 1 century and 5 fifties in 35 innings... that shows what a match winner he is..
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