Indian Renaissance

[Lurker]

^ Golden period by whom? By a few individuals who believe things were the best 'back in the day'? If you look at it from an unbiased view, it is the emotion of 'nostalgia' in play here. And nostalgia is one of the very best emotions, really.

Dude, everything does not have to be argumentative. If you accuse others as being nostalgic, surely you also run the danger of being dismissive, or even ignorant, simply by suggesting those who appreciate a certain time and culture are being nostalgic. Look within this thread, you have over 60 responses, if even half of them have dealt with the subject you still have 30 or so post worth merit about how/why/what is amiss today. Now it is your choice to just brush those 30 with 1 post claiming you are the one who is unbiased and everybody else is nostalgic OR read the merits/demrits and question the perspective. By the by if your larger point is that culture, like everything else, evolves with time and nothihg stays the same, even if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that is well taken. xxx

[Late Cut]

Great topic; I think the axiom, necessity is the mother of invention, holds true. The biggest issue i see is cultural more than anything else. I think our culture does not promote innovation, risk taking, or thinking outside the box; we focus much more or stability and social acceptability- both good qualities but not conducive to innovation. As can be seen, most innovators, artists and game changers tend to be outside of the norm- as our culture evolves, we'll see more and more non traditionalists and see more innovators. iAs for famous authors, I'll let you know when i publish my book. :haha:

[zen]

Great topic; I think the axiom, necessity is the mother of invention, holds true. The biggest issue i see is cultural more than anything else. I think our culture does not promote innovation, risk taking, or thinking outside the box; we focus much more or stability and social acceptability- both good qualities but not conducive to innovation. As can be seen, most innovators, artists and game changers tend to be outside of the norm- as our culture evolves, we'll see more and more non traditionalists and see more innovators. iAs for famous authors, I'll let you know when i publish my book. :haha:

Don't forget to send out a free copy too :winky:

[Rajiv]

One thing I can notice in this thread is that there seems to be a view that 'old is gold'. Indian cinema, Indian culture before the 90s was way better than what it is now. I'll not get into better/worse because fundamentally I believe there are no absolutes. Things become better or worse in space, time, perspective, and context. Maybe the 'oldies' (dont mean it in any disrespectful way) will do well to be aware of the fact that a "culture" is never stationary. A culture evolves constantly. I think our kids are doing mostly good in ensuring that some core values are still maintained in our national culture but that's just my pov.

..mmm, if I have seen 80's 90's, 2000+ then I am in a better position to compare innit?

[zen]

I have heard that many times before, mostly by English proponents but I have never been convinced. For starters to me language is lot more than simple medium of expression. There is a reason why Gulzar wrote (in Dil se) - Woh Yaar hai jo khusboo ki tarah, jiski jubaan Urdu ki tarah...With all respect had he written jiski jubaan Malayalam ki tarah most folks would have gone WTF? Some of the great scenes in Hindi cinema, again using as a reference, would be those laced in Urdu and well Hindi. Try translating "Ek sau solak chaand ki raatein ek tumhare kaandhe ka til " (Mera Kuch saaman). Something always gets lost in translation. While we are on the subject one of the reason for the demise of arts and culture is the slow death of languages like Urdu. The golden era of Indian arts, in past few centuries of course, coincides with golden era of Urdu. Be it shayari, story telling or movie with songs.

I agree that languages like French and Urdu are more suited to poetry (and would like to see more of Urdu) but at the end of the day, a language is still a medium of expression. For e.g. saying 'I love you', 'Mein tumse pyar karte hoon', and "Ich libe du"each make the point .... Someone who is born in Kerela wouldn't be hindered by not knowing Urdu when it comes to writing poetry for example. Like you said, Urdu might make him sound sweeter though

[Late Cut]

I agree that languages like French and Urdu are more suited to poetry (and would like to see more of Urdu) but at the end of the day' date=' a language is still a medium of expression. For e.g. saying 'I love you', 'Mein tumse pyar karte hoon', and "Ich libe du"each make the point .... Someone who is born in Kerela wouldn't be hindered by not knowing Urdu when it comes to writing poetry for example. Like you said, Urdu might make him sound sweeter though[/quote'] I agree with all of this; other than German; try talking sweetly (or dirty) in German:haha:

[zen]

I agree with all of this; other than German; try talking sweetly (or dirty) in German:haha:

58p1ce3Ciwc&feature=related :P

[Lurker]

I agree that languages like French and Urdu are more suited to poetry (and would like to see more of Urdu) but at the end of the day' date=' [b']a language is still a medium of expression. For e.g. saying 'I love you', 'Mein tumse pyar karte hoon', and "Ich libe du"each make the point .... Someone who is born in Kerela wouldn't be hindered by not knowing Urdu when it comes to writing poetry for example. Like you said, Urdu might make him sound sweeter though

Nope, it is lot more than a medium of expression. Thats akin to suggesting clothes are meant to cover your body and whether be it burqa, or bikini serves the same purpose. The reality of course is different.

[zen]

Nope, it is lot more than a medium of expression. Thats akin to suggesting clothes are meant to cover your body and whether be it burqa, or bikini serves the same purpose. The reality of course is different.

Shakespeare or Tagore or Tolstoy work would have even more appreciated if they had written in Urdu, I guess .... Poor chaps :P

[Vijay.Sharma]

Dude, everything does not have to be argumentative. If you accuse others as being nostalgic, surely you also run the danger of being dismissive, or even ignorant, simply by suggesting those who appreciate a certain time and culture are being nostalgic. Look within this thread, you have over 60 responses, if even half of them have dealt with the subject you still have 30 or so post worth merit about how/why/what is amiss today. Now it is your choice to just brush those 30 with 1 post claiming you are the one who is unbiased and everybody else is nostalgic OR read the merits/demrits and question the perspective.

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I think you misunderstood my posts. I have very clearly said that, even my pov is neither better nor worse than anyone else's - surely that is a give away of my relative balance? The nostalgia thing is just an observation (possibly if I used some other words to express it, it may not have sounded like I am arguing against it). I am nostalgic too. In fact my point was that nostalgia as an emotion is very powerful and all of us just love it. All I did in my previous post is acknowledge this basic truth of most human beings' experience. And as I have maintained thru out (not only in this discussion but in many others) I believe that the reference to things like "30 or so post worth merit about how/why/what is amiss today" is a matter of the 4 fundamental variables of experience: time, space, perspective, and context. The same 30 posts may be viewed from a 180 degree opposite perspective from someone else and neither of the two would be right or wrong.

By the by if your larger point is that culture, like everything else, evolves with time and nothihg stays the same, even if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that is well taken. xxx

Yes sir, that is the larger point :-)

[Vijay.Sharma]

Great topic; I think the axiom, necessity is the mother of invention, holds true. The biggest issue i see is cultural more than anything else. I think our culture does not promote innovation, risk taking, or thinking outside the box; we focus much more or stability and social acceptability- both good qualities but not conducive to innovation. As can be seen, most innovators, artists and game changers tend to be outside of the norm- as our culture evolves, we'll see more and more non traditionalists and see more innovators. iAs for famous authors, I'll let you know when i publish my book. :haha:

Very very very apt observation that is. I believe the reason for the lack of innovation and the focus towards "conformance" is essentially because of the 300 year psychological rape of our culture. We were made to feel useless and we were forced to feel that to be great or even good you had to be westernized especially anglicized. But, like I said in my previous post, the generations of the 70s and 80s...the guys in their late 40s and 50s dared to rise and look the world in the eye. The next two generations i.e. ppl in the early 40s and mid 30s delivered stuff. The current generation of the late 20s have tremendous confidence and the teens couldn't care a damn for the firangs. They know they are a class apart and I think these kids will change the course of India - make it an invention country like it used to be all those centuries back.,

[Vijay.Sharma]

..mmm' date=' if I have seen 80's 90's, 2000+ then I am in a better position to compare innit?[/quote']Possibly. OT: my take on wisdom and experience - knowledge can be gained by reading, by listening to people, etc. Wisdom comes from experience and experience here does not necessarily mean having lived during the 70s or 60s. Number of years or the time frame fow which you experience a thing does not cause you to become wiser (although there is a correlation). A person becomes wiser based on what he has learned through his experiences. So even if he has done something just few times compares to a veteran, the kid may be wiser because he has learned more than the veteran in just a few instances of doing something. Back to topic. If you think you are in a better position to compare then so be it. My pov, no opinion is intrinsically right or wrong.

[Vijay.Sharma]

Nope, it is lot more than a medium of expression. Thats akin to suggesting clothes are meant to cover your body and whether be it burqa, or bikini serves the same purpose. The reality of course is different.

Totally agreed! I think Urdu is one of the best languages humans invented. My goodness the regality it has is just awesome. They say in Urdu there is a word for every human emotion and expression. Boy what a language...think about Mirza Ghalib! Edit - I think modern English is also getting there what with its vast array of influences from various languages of the world. Of course it does not have the regality of Urdu and may never become a regal one but English has adapted to a role in sophisticated expression and at the same time being a fluid conversational tool. If only it could become a little more intuitive in its spellings...American spellings are far better than Brit from mwhere I stand

[Mariyam]

I agree with all of this; other than German; try talking sweetly (or dirty) in German:haha:

I agree. Ze Germans whistle a lot when zay takk. Vi haff to kip zat in ze mind. unzerstandungsprungzeedung?? But if you are willing to overlook the last 100 odd years, when the Germans were only interested in winning the football WC and the genocide WC, they have produced some absolute literary giants. Faust by Geothe The dialogues between Faust and the Devil (Mephisto) will leave you soul searching. The Metamorphosis by Kafka Or just try going through the philosophies of Hegel, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. Really interesting reads. Will leave yu thinking. Heavy duty stuff. * * Haven't completely read any of their works. Too complicated for a simpleton like me. :((

[zen]

Add to that: * Mein Kempf by :hitler: * Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx

[Vijay.Sharma]

I agree. Ze Germans whistle a lot when zay takk. Vi haff to kip zat in ze mind. unzerstandungsprungzeedung?? But if you are willing to overlook the last 100 odd years, when the Germans were only interested in winning the football WC and the genocide WC, they have produced some absolute literary giants. Faust by Geothe The dialogues between Faust and the Devil (Mephisto) will leave you soul searching. The Metamorphosis by Kafka Or just try going through the philosophies of Hegel, Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. Really interesting reads. Will leave yu thinking. Heavy duty stuff. * * Haven't completely read any of their works. Too complicated for a simpleton like me. :((

At the heart of all complex structures and ideas are the simplest of principles :winky: Yeah the Deutsch have had some real great philosophers, thinkers, inventors, and scientists. Braun, Goethe, Einstein, Levi Strauss, the atom bomb fellow, Kant, and the guy who had the balls to own up his ills, Max Mueller.

[Mariyam]

Examples like Brazil, Spain, China etc is redudant. Amongst other common themes they also have a common language. India's strength, diversity, is also its weakness. Non-Hindi speakers love to hate Hindi (even if they can speak it at times), but love to love English even if its not Indian. It is fascinating, and possibly embarassing, that Indians tend to communicate in English in high society of India and certainly when abroad. A Pakistani girl once gave me a beautiful insight into this - Indians love to chat in English unless they get real close with someone, thats when they start speaking in Hindi (or Tamil or Telugu). Its like being a prostitute who would do it to make a buck but only kiss people who she actually likes. For the record I do appreciate Pakistanis willingness to come across as total uneducated jackass when it comes to speaking in English, but communicate with each other in Urdu or Punjabi laced with Urdu. xxx

Though your words are rather harsh, I agree with your overall sentiment. It is more or less a necessity for a person to master English to succeed in any wake of life in modern day India. Almost any, maybe you can still be a successful rich farmer in Punjab if you don't know English. But thats about it. English has become indispensable. Kids who've grown up in Mumbai who can't construct a sentence in Hindi without injecting 1-2 English words in between. It becomes the norm. These include kids who come from literary families. These kids/youth have nothing but scorn for works of literature of Indian authors ( non English). :(( This is true of those who grow up in Marathi, Gujarati speaking households too. Even they have to use English words in every sentence. Personally speaking, I prefer Hindi/Urdu to English, in terms of day to day communication. I think ( the few times that I do) in that language. And I can express myself better in that language. On this forum, I refrain from speaking in Hindi because South Indians, NRIs, South Indians who are NRIs and other such uncouth barbaric people should get a chance to read and enjoy my posts.* There are very few Hindi/Urdu speakers left. Its Hinglish all the way. (*) Joking

[Mariyam]

Lurker: I came across this list today: Top 10 innovative companies in the world Hindustan Unilever is at #6 and BHEL is at #9. I don't know how they've computed 'innovation', but if this is true, things aren't all that bleak after all.

[IKnowU]

tbh I would love to master Hindi.........but there is no one to talk to other than my parents :((

[punjabi_khota]

Lurker: I came across this list today: Top 10 innovative companies in the world Hindustan Unilever is at #6 and BHEL is at #9. I don't know how they've computed 'innovation', but if this is true, things aren't all that bleak after all.

Unilever is not indian :acute: