Is Cricket losing its popularity amongst India's urban youth?

[Ultimate_Game]

I agree he is the best wk-batsman india has produced which i have seen.But if captain takes all the credit for wins then he is also captain to get whitewashed twice in test series and his performance in world cup as a whole as captain and batsman were mediocore.Actually some of his decisons like playing chawla and poor captaincy nearly cost us the wc.

There's a difference in nearly costing us the win and losing. Dhoni won 2 World Cups and that's what matters. As for him being mediocre say what you want but he delivered in the biggest game India played in years. Before him we didn't have anything to show for since 1983 and since Dhoni took over we have 2 World Cups in 5 years. I would have such "mediocre" players in my team all the time.

[CG]

There's a difference in nearly costing us the win and losing. Dhoni won 2 World Cups and that's what matters. As for him being mediocre say what you want but he delivered in the biggest game India played in years. Before him we didn't have anything to show for since 1983 and since Dhoni took over we have 2 World Cups in 5 years. I would have such "mediocre" players in my team all the time.

I said his performance was medicore in the wc 2011 as a player /captain.What i meant was captaincy should not be brought in as mostly captain is as good as his team.

[Ultimate_Game]

I said his performance was medicore in the wc 2011 as a player /captain.What i meant was captaincy should not be brought in as mostly captain is as good as his team.

That's a load of cr@p. We had a better team under Ganguly but all we did was reach finals and lose. At one time we had reached and lost 9 consecutive finals :omg: Dhoni on the other hand turned the team around and India's performances in finals improved drastically. Whoever says "captain is as good as the team" didn't see the likes of Imran or Dhoni get the best out of their teams. Good captains mould the team in their reflection and India's performances in finals is a reflection of how Dhoni steps up in big matches. Under Ganguly the same, and in some cases even a better team, usually faltered in the big games.

[CG]

That's a load of cr@p. We had a better team under Ganguly but all we did was reach finals and lose. At one time we had reached and lost 9 consecutive finals :omg: Dhoni on the other hand turned the team around and India's performances in finals improved drastically. Whoever says "captain is as good as the team" didn't see the likes of Imran or Dhoni get the best out of their teams. Good captains mould the team in their reflection and India's performances in finals is a reflection of how Dhoni steps up in big matches. Under Ganguly the same, and in some cases even a better team, usually faltered in the big games.

also its not like we won every final under dhoni wehave lost many finals under dhoni like kitply cup,asia cup.Players have played a major role particularly gambhir in tournament finals like t20 and wc . We have been shocking away from home in odis losing in sa and eng and in icc champions trophy also in 2 two t20 world cup we have been destroyed.We have been tigers at home in odis and lambs abroad also and regarding comparison to imran,diff is he had an eye for talent and dhoni clearly lacks one and will go to any way to back players like jaddu.Its better not to bring capataincy when talking about individual skills . and i do not agree under ganguly we had a better team,also ganguly team faced australia in few finals and that aussie team was one of the greatest.

[The Outsider]

You know there is nothing left in the argument when "delivering" World Cups due to great kaptaani skills is being used to big up a cricketer. Do Richards and Waugh need the crutches of kaptaani skills to support their stature as all time greats of the game? Dhoni is an all time great ODI cricketer and a mediocre test cricketer - I give much more weight to test cricket in assessing a cricketer's overall value. You are free to do the opposite and in fact a lot of the country does it given Dhoni's superstar status. What's wrong in these viewpoints coexisting?

[Old guy]

You know there is nothing left in the argument when "delivering" World Cups due to great kaptaani skills is being used to big up a cricketer. Do Richards and Waugh need the crutches of kaptaani skills to support their stature as all time greats of the game? Dhoni is an all time great ODI cricketer and a mediocre test cricketer - I give much more weight to test cricket in assessing a cricketer's overall value. You are free to do the opposite and in fact a lot of the country does it given Dhoni's superstar status. What's wrong in these viewpoints coexisting?

but by wicket keeper standards is he really tht mediocre in tests? fair enough not good enough to be such a big super star but he is super star cos of his odi performances and also cos of his captaincy is there anything wrong with it ?

[The Outsider]

^ I'll tr to summarize my stance since the discussion is going all over the place. The core discussion in this thread is whether cricket is losing it's popularity among the younger generation. I am not sure that is the case if one were to include IPL in the discussion, but if one were to go by the core of cricket - test matches, then yes the younger generation does not care about it as much and has little idea about the skills and temperament involved to succeed in test matches. To show my point, I gave an example of Dhoni - a huge success in T20 and ODI, but a distinctly mediocre test cricketer. He is the biggest brand name in India and while there are other factors behind that like his cool personality, love for bikes, coming from a small town, well spoken and well mannered the main reason behind it his success in IPL and ODIs. Would Dhoni have been even a fraction of the brand name that he is if he had only played test cricket? Dhoni is okay in tests, but certified flops like Yuvraj and Raina are superstars. All this shows the dilution of appreciating the core skills behind the game and a love for mediocrity and cowlashing. Do I grudge Dhoni or Jadeja their success? Of course not. The cricketing landscape has changed and a spell of impeccable defense like Tendulkar showed against Steyn or Dravid did against Anderson and Broad over the last year or so is not appreciated nearly enough as cowlashing some brainless trundlers in IPL. That is a fact and it means that a large section of the cricket viewing population does not understand or appreciate cricket, but is more happy having some fun watching the IPL. That's how the market has evolved and players like Jadeja and Raina have cashed in on the changing dynamics. Does that mean I have to jump on the bandwagon and start appreciating cowlashing? No, I should be able to have my like for test cricket irrespective of the fact that Laxman earns nowhere near Dhoni.

[Marut]

Dhoni is not a mediocre test batsman. Please compare him with wicket keepers of all eras and not against top order batsmen. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting Dhoni is 7th in terms of average for wicket keepers of all eras. Expecting a 50 average for a wicket keeper is hardly rational because the best of the breed does not average 50. If we take away performances, Dhoni is at 9th for wicket keepers of all eras. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;keeper=1;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting How do 7th and 9th all time best averages make him a mediocre test batsman? Treat him as an all rounder, with two core skill, keeping and batting, and you will note that he is a fine test batsman. In ODIs he is legendary.

[CG]

Dhoni is not a mediocre test batsman. Please compare him with wicket keepers of all eras and not against top order batsmen. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting Dhoni is 7th in terms of average for wicket keepers of all eras. Expecting a 50 average for a wicket keeper is hardly rational because the best of the breed does not average 50. If we take away performances, Dhoni is at 9th for wicket keepers of all eras. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;keeper=1;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting How do 7th and 9th all time best averages make him a mediocre test batsman? Treat him as an all rounder, with two core skill, keeping and batting, and you will note that he is a fine test batsman. In ODIs he is legendary.

:cantstop: at best he is a good test batsman considering his form in past few years.Regarding wk of different eras as you know keeping was the primary skill then .

[Ultimate_Game]

also its not like we won every final under dhoni wehave lost many finals under dhoni like kitply cup,asia cup.Players have played a major role particularly gambhir in tournament finals like t20 and wc . We have been shocking away from home in odis losing in sa and eng and in icc champions trophy also in 2 two t20 world cup we have been destroyed.We have been tigers at home in odis and lambs abroad also and regarding comparison to imran,diff is he had an eye for talent and dhoni clearly lacks one and will go to any way to back players like jaddu.Its better not to bring capataincy when talking about individual skills . and i do not agree under ganguly we had a better team,also ganguly team faced australia in few finals and that aussie team was one of the greatest.

Kitply Cup :hysterical: As for Asia Cup we didn't even reach the finals :dontknow: The difference under Dhoni is that we don't choke in the finals like we used to under Ganguly. I mean what would you prefer - a team which wins matches in group games, consistently reaches finals but never wins any finals (under Ganguly), or a team which may be inconsistent, may not reach finals for every tourney but in case they reach knockouts - semis & finals - they show up and generally win (under Dhoni). I am not sure about you but I will go with the latter. Yes, our team is inconsistent and hasn't won everything but under Dhoni the team isn't like it used to be under Ganguly in big games. Now I know that if India plays a final it won't choke. It may lose but not like 9 straight finals. A captain does mould a team in his image and you do see teams take the characteristics of their leaders. You saw it with Pakis under Imran, Aus under Waugh/Taylor, India under Ganguly and now India under Dhoni. Contrary to what you said, i.e. captain is as good as the team, it's not as if the team will perform the same under any pplayer. For example we all saw how India performed under Tendulkar as captain and we see the difference when Sehwag captains a team. Captaincy is an art and a good captain can and does make a difference to the team. A team with a captain with good leadership and man-management skills will generally always trump a team with a captain who doesn't know how to get the best out of his players. In fact this is so true that we actually saw a specialist captain in Mike Brearley. The guy wasn't the best player/batsman but was definitely one of the best captains.

[CG]

Kitply Cup :hysterical: As for Asia Cup we didn't even reach the finals :dontknow: The difference under Dhoni is that we don't choke in the finals like we used to under Ganguly. I mean what would you prefer - a team which wins matches in group games, consistently reaches finals but never wins any finals (under Ganguly), or a team which may be inconsistent, may not reach finals for every tourney but in case they reach knockouts - semis & finals - they show up and generally win (under Dhoni). I am not sure about you but I will go with the latter. Yes, our team is inconsistent and hasn't won everything but under Dhoni the team isn't like it used to be under Ganguly in big games. Now I know that if India plays a final it won't choke. It may lose but not like 9 straight finals. A captain does mould a team in his image and you do see teams take the characteristics of their leaders. You saw it with Pakis under Imran, Aus under Waugh/Taylor, India under Ganguly and now India under Dhoni. Contrary to what you said, i.e. captain is as good as the team, it's not as if the team will perform the same under any pplayer. For example we all saw how India performed under Tendulkar as captain and we see the difference when Sehwag captains a team. Captaincy is an art and a good captain can and does make a difference to the team. A team with a captain with good leadership and man-management skills will generally always trump a team with a captain who doesn't know how to get the best out of his players. In fact this is so true that we actually saw a specialist captain in Mike Brearley. The guy wasn't the best player/batsman but was definitely one of the best captains.

If a captain would make a team not choke then southafrica could be changing captains everyday to get the right man.At the end of the day its the players ,i agree team management and motivation also plays a role .But quality of player is important .you see with the same team and captain we got whitewashed twice .suddenly dhoni has not lost everything,regarding captaincy we won series in india under shewag and gambhir captaincy also .

[Sehwag1830]

We must remember under Ganguly's captaincy we became mediocre ODI team even at home. We couldn't beat WI and ENG at home. IND was ranked no.8 ODI side in 2005.

[Marut]

:cantstop: at best he is a good test batsman considering his form in past few years.Regarding wk of different eras as you know keeping was the primary skill then .

Of the modern wk, only Prior and Sanga have better averages, and Sanga has now left wk'ing. He is second to Prior. Dhoni's averages for the past 3 years are same as his career averages. Not sure what you mean by his poor form in past few years. If you mean the last year and half, not just Dhoni, the whole team has sucked.

[CG]

Of the modern wk' date=' only Prior and Sanga have better averages, and Sanga has now left wk'ing. He is second to Prior. Dhoni's averages for the past 3 years are same as his career averages. Not sure what you mean by his poor form in past few years. If you mean the last year and half, not just Dhoni, the whole team has sucked.[/quote'] Stats can be misleading ,but dhoni as a test batsman does not give me confidence particularly away from home.

[Ultimate_Game]

If a captain would make a team not choke then southafrica could be changing captains everyday to get the right man.At the end of the day its the players ' date='i agree team management and motivation also plays a role .But quality of player is important .you see with the same team and captain we got whitewashed twice .suddenly dhoni has not lost everything,regarding captaincy we won series in india under shewag and gambhir captaincy also .[/quote'] So are you saying a captain is immaterial and a team will perform the same no matter who the captain is? i.e. India will perform the same whether it's captained by Dhoni, Tendulkar, Bhajji, Sehwag or Munaf?

[vvvslaxman]

Topic totally derailed.

[The Outsider]

Dhoni is not a mediocre test batsman. Please compare him with wicket keepers of all eras and not against top order batsmen. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting Dhoni is 7th in terms of average for wicket keepers of all eras. Expecting a 50 average for a wicket keeper is hardly rational because the best of the breed does not average 50. If we take away performances, Dhoni is at 9th for wicket keepers of all eras. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;keeper=1;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;template=results;type=batting How do 7th and 9th all time best averages make him a mediocre test batsman? Treat him as an all rounder, with two core skill, keeping and batting, and you will note that he is a fine test batsman. In ODIs he is legendary.

Firstly, averages are misleading. Dhoni averages more than Kapil whereas he is nowhere close to Kapil as a batsman. He is not a poor test batsman but his averages have been inflated by making merry from 300/5 kind of scores thanks to our top order. Chalo, let's say he is a good test batsman for a wicket keeper - what about his other core skill - keeping? Mediocre, right? I can name at least 5 keepers from India itself who have been better keepers than Dhoni. And more pertinently to the topic if Dhoni had never played any IPL or ODIs would he have been even close to the most popular cricketers in India? Would Yuvraj and Raina have been household names if they had played only test cricket? Would Jadeja have been a multimillionaire if talking about core cricketing skills? Why is a master class in test match defense by Tendulkar against Steyn less appreciated than cowlashing by Yusuf Pathan in the IPL? Is it not because core cricketing skills are losing their appreciation among the viewers and crass slogging and darts gaining ground?

[Vilander]

Twirling a cricket bat after hitting a six =! winning the world cup for the country.

Yeah it was cringe worthy but he is rustic, did not know how to react so twrilled it imagining it would look cool but it was a fail a grand one at that but he did win the wc with a 6. This has got to do with education not attitude, give him some credit dude.

[Vilander]

Firstly, averages are misleading. Dhoni averages more than Kapil whereas he is nowhere close to Kapil as a batsman. He is not a poor test batsman but his averages have been inflated by making merry from 300/5 kind of scores thanks to our top order. Chalo, let's say he is a good test batsman for a wicket keeper - what about his other core skill - keeping? Mediocre, right? I can name at least 5 keepers from India itself who have been better keepers than Dhoni. And more pertinently to the topic if Dhoni had never played any IPL or ODIs would he have been even close to the most popular cricketers in India? Would Yuvraj and Raina have been household names if they had played only test cricket? Would Jadeja have been a multimillionaire if talking about core cricketing skills? Why is a master class in test match defense by Tendulkar against Steyn less appreciated than cowlashing by Yusuf Pathan in the IPL? Is it not because core cricketing skills are losing their appreciation among the viewers and crass slogging and darts gaining ground?

if india did not loose 0-8 then the masses would be more than glad to chest beat about test cricket.

[youngindia]

Firstly' date=' averages are misleading. Dhoni averages more than Kapil whereas he is nowhere close to Kapil as a batsman. He is not a poor test batsman but his averages have been inflated by making merry from 300/5 kind of scores thanks to our top order. ?[/quote'] A load of uninformed garbage. Kapil clearly has much less batting pedigree than dhoni. Dhoni is a highly gifted cricketer but was not taught cricket in the right way. people from poorer schools with mediocre coaches exhibit awkward to poor technique.as a result he will never be a technical master. The problems of dhoni and raina stem from them obviously not getting the best coaching and competition in their formative years. but tier 2 town talents signal a breakthrough in indian sports nevrtheless. you cannot expect guys from tier 2 town and villages who had no access to even proper coaches and competition (until their later years) to be highly refined like gavaskar or tendulkar Simplistic. Gilchrist was not the best keeper in australia either. they were chosen for being the best batsman who can keep. keeping is not as strategic as bowling or batting where the weight of runs and wickets are very improtant. raina and jadeja have a pretty solid defence. what the hell are you whining about? yes they suffer from tier 2 town backlground a bit .Without outstanding talent and aptitude for the game , they would not have made this far. you are sounding like a madman and with no credibility because you distribute words like "cowlashing" without really understanding the difference between proper shotmakers and real cowlashers. jayasuriya, yuvraj and raina are proper shotmakers . does tendulkar himself play defence all the time? that's one part of the game. what about the other crucial part?" you have to hurt the opposition with shots haven't aggressive batsmen from WI and Aus go after the bowling in tests as well? how is it "cowlashing" when richards or greenidge murdered bowlers even in tests. who told you "shotmaking = crass slogging", ignoramus? how are top batsmen able to play shots and stay long as well? does gayle have a poor test record? does abdv has? why can't pollard or smith do the same your whining is unnecessary,ignorant and getting on the nerves. you don't really know what's going on.