WikiLeaks: 'India would grow at 12% if it were South, West only'

[Lurker]

Question : Do you think Mangal Pandey was a casteist or a nationalist ?

I have meandered from a serious into volatile into a humorous mood, in which mood did you ask that Yoda-esque

[bulbul]

Although I do understand entirely what you mean here I would beggar to differ slightly. Discussing about communities is bad when it is meant to be bad in the first place. Having been brought up in the most cast ridden state (perhaps) of all Indian states, I have also seen how people easily call each other with a stereotypical nickname, so every Kayastha was a Laala, Brahmin a Pundit, Muslim a Miyaanji, a Punjabi was always a Sardaar, Bengali well he was a Bengali :cantstop: So I grew up with a - Abbe Miyaan Pundit ko le kar aana be. I do miss that these days.. and yes I am a casteist :secret::secret:

I don't mind discussing Casts... but we all know how the debate goes on here...at least we don't want to hurt sensitive guys... I am not castiest....I believe this cast thing is the biggest bane to Hindu community

[bulbul]

Question : Do you think Mangal Pandey was a casteist or a nationalist ?

you have to ask Poonam Pandey or Aamir khan

[Yoda-esque]

I have meandered from a serious into volatile into a humorous mood' date=' in which mood did you ask that Yoda-esque [/quote'] I am serious...It is a random thought, perhaps not for this thread, but when you said casteist (in humor) it just set my train of thought in motion

[Lurker]

I don't mind discussing Casts... but we all know how the debate goes on here...at least we don't want to hurt sensitive guys... I am not castiest....I believe this cast thing is the biggest bane to Hindu community

Oye I am not a casteist :hitler: yeah casteism is obviously a bane of India, but I do miss speaking that language. It was/is beyond culture. How many times I heard Abbe Lala Eid mein subah aayega be, kurta pahanega saale, lungi mein mat aana. It was never a caste statement, it was something else. Today in this PC world talwaar would be out before that statement was completed.

[Lurker]

I am serious...It is a random thought' date=' perhaps not for this thread, but when you said casteist (in humor) it just set my train of thought in motion[/quote'] Tell me why you feel that way mate? I think it is alright for this thread, PC made a stupid statement (me thinks), we sure can not do much worse :winky:

[kubrickian]

I mostly see Indians around me.why ? because I live in Delhi hehe,but I stated my point on basis of what I hear from people (specially my relatives ) ,who are well settled abroad . If Bihar/UP/Delhi or any other state of India is "gutter" doesn't mean AP is any good either .Just leave Hyderabad ,and you will see the difference .

If you leave Hyd, you would go into Telangana which is a little backward but rest of the state is not like that. Actually coastal Andhra is much more prosperous and probably the per capita is on par with TN and Punjab. That's why there is a demand for separate statehood from Telangana people.

[Yoda-esque]

Tell me why you feel that way mate? I think it is alright for this thread, PC made a stupid statement (me thinks), we sure can not do much worse :winky:

Oh..When you said that growing up, people referred to each other stereotypically, it took me back to that line "Lala Munshi Pujari Sipaiyya...." from the ballad in the Mangal Pandey movie. :) Set off my thought process about whether Pandey retaliated on account of him being threatened by what he thought was a slight to his caste and religion or ... Was he a freedom fighter as perceived by most people? I don't believe he was much of the latter for two reasons : 1) He was already serving in the British army up until that cartridge incident 2) The idea of India wasn't born then (Actually it was there but not everybody had grasped its essence) Anyways, like I said, this is probably not the discussion for this thread. [EDIT : Mangal Pandey, however, was the spark that triggered of the first war of independence, although his purpose was entirely different.Its a bit like Anna's anti-corruption drive turning into an anti-Government drive]

[Clarke]

1) It is factually incorrect, specially in the time frame, check the stats.

You're right about Bihar, but in general the fact is that South has done much better than the north. There are the very prosperous states such as Punjab but then there's states where poverty stats are similar to Sub-Saharan Africa.

2) Every country will have this inequality. Developed countries are no different where the growth rate of California would be different to almost 4/5th of the nation.

Of course, the reason we emphasize this for India is because our worst performing states are similar to nations performing real bad (in terms of important numbers on poverty, literacy, per capita gdp etc) & there is no reason that should be the case in a stable democracy like ours.

3) Gujrat's prosperity can not be compared to a state like Bihar (say). Gujarat has always been a rich(er) state compared to many others. Like many other rich economies it benefits from a sea route that has always worked for it historically (and also made it a target of many an attacks). Taking nothing away from Gujrat's success it is good to see things in complete perspective. By the way Gurcharan Das's book India Unbound, has a good theory about why Gujratis have succeeded in modern post liberalisation economy. You may want to read upon it, if you havent already. xxx

There are various reasons why certain states do better than others, Gujarat is just an example wherein the central govt does not play a major role in its development. Yes, the central govt should handle areas on a priority basis, but that's not the root of the matter. My overall point being, its necessary to identify a problem before we go about troubleshooting it. I reckon we have disagreed on this earlier (along with many other topics such as NRIs & inflation of urban property prices).

[Lurker]

Oh..When you said that growing up, people referred to each other stereotypically, it took me back to that line "Lala Munshi Pujari Sipaiyya...." from the ballad in the Mangal Pandey movie. :)

Thats a Javed Akhtar special. Doesn't get enough accolodates for his work as a lyricist.

Set off my thought process about whether Pandey retaliated on account of him being threatened by what he thought was a slight to his caste and religion or ... Was he a freedom fighter as perceived by most people? I don't believe he was much of the latter for two reasons : 1) He was already serving in the British army up until that cartridge incident 2) The idea of India wasn't born then (Actually it was there but not everybody had grasped its essence) Anyways, like I said, this is probably not the discussion for this thread. [EDIT : Mangal Pandey, however, was the spark that triggered of the first war of independence, although his purpose was entirely different.Its a bit like Anna's anti-corruption drive turning into an anti-Government drive]

It is kind of hard to put Mangal Pandey in such words as a freedom-fighter considering what we know (or lack there of) about his whereabouts before he fired the shot. Although it is safe to say that he was the spark that triggered the war and he in turn was triggered was by the cartridge incident. That being said you may have raised a relevant point to this thread, that of 1st war of Independence. If you read up on the 1st war of Independence, by most account it was largely a Eastern (or Purabiyas as they were called) affair. Take for example, William Darlymple's The Last Mughal It has vivid description of Purabiyas launching attack against British and coming over to Delhi looking for a leader to take them to glory. Ghalib also noted this in his writing of the time, not all of which coloured Purabiyas in any glory. However what remains unquestioned is the role of Purabiyas in launching the first war of Independence. What also remains unquestioned is the supporting (Indian )cast of British in destroying this mutiny and how they were propelled enough to be tagged as modern day "martial" race. Too many murky questions in there, perhaps the biggest one being " What time frame is a valid one in a nation's history". A 20 year growth rate or a 150 year old first shot :winky: xxx

[Lurker]

Of course, the reason we emphasize this for India is because our worst performing states are similar to nations performing real bad (in terms of important numbers on poverty, literacy, per capita gdp etc) & there is no reason that should be the case in a stable democracy like ours.

I am not denying that at all. Indian economic reform, and emergence if you will, has to happen on all levels and in all the states. Else it is not going to be sustainable. Most likely will end up in mass migration to the areas of wealth, which is perhaps as much the reason to make an effort to develop the nation as a whole instead of making snide remarks. It kind of reminds me of what we would do in school days, "Yeah he has received 82% marks, had it been Science only it would have been 90%". The comment was typically made to impress girls, or parents of other students. Wonder who PC was trying to impress here.

There are various reasons why certain states do better than others, Gujarat is just an example wherein the central govt does not play a major role in its development. Yes, the central govt should handle areas on a priority basis, but that's not the root of the matter. My overall point being, its necessary to identify a problem before we go about troubleshooting it. I reckon we have disagreed on this earlier (along with many other topics such as NRIs & inflation of urban property prices).

I am curious to know your point of view on this, help me understand what do you think are the reasons why certain states have done better than others?

[Aaku]

btw..we need moar mixing of northies and southies to solve this me thinks :angelic:

You a southie ? :ohyeah: j/k.. peace:icflove:

[Yoda-esque]

You a southie ? :ohyeah: j/k.. peace:icflove:

Hes a southie who wants to mate with a northie :--D

[Anonymous]

You a southie ? :ohyeah: j/k.. peace:icflove:

lol yeah.

Hes a southie who wants to mate with a northie :--D

I dont discriminate when it comes to that btw..jeez what has this thread turned into :cantstop:

[Clarke]

I am curious to know your point of view on this, help me understand what do you think are the reasons why certain states have done better than others?

Some inherent strengths: Gujarat - Entrepreneurship Punjab - Agriculture Haryana - Industry ( i mean manufacturing) AP/South in general - Higher literacy rates, bigger pool of engineers for IT, although there's more to it such as automobile industry in TN. Not all of this is a result of central govt & its policies/priorities.

[Anonymous]

^^ To add to that, the boom in technical education i.e. number of engineering colleges primarily in TN and followed by the other south states contributed significantly to the growth of the IT industry.

[Lurker]

The response is a tad philosphical so I wont blame you if we do not land on the same wavelength but let me see if I can make a sensible response.

Gujarat - Entrepreneurship

What you define as Entrepreneurship is scoffed at in many other parts of the nation. This is what I was hinting about the book India Unbound. Gujratis (and you can extend it to Marwaris etc) essentially were pioneers in trading, which was also scoffed by many other regions. Baniya is still considered an abuse for many. Purely anecdotally one of my cousins owned the largest Electronics shop in Patna (this is in 80s) and he was unable to land a wife. Even today you wont see too many Biharis doing entrepreunerships. Now whether they are correct, or Gujjus are, is a cultural discussion. My point essentially is to look beyond what has merely succeeded and start using that as a template.

AP/South in general - Higher literacy rates, bigger pool of engineers for IT, although there's more to it such as automobile industry in TN.

To add to that, the boom in technical education i.e. number of engineering colleges primarily in TN and followed by the other south states contributed significantly to the growth of the IT industry.

Again, a hint of success insinuating the method was correct. The education system of Southern states is hardly any better than rest of the nation. What is different is a mushrooming of colleges in technology that was basically built upon a "donation college" mentality. Growing up it was considered an abuse if anyone said he was studying in South, simply because it meant a donation college. Of course I dont mean an Anna University, or REC Trichy here. What happened essentially is with the IT boom these colleges stepped up and suddenly became mainstream and respected. And voila you now have a winning strategy. Who cares what remains at the base of these institutions?

Punjab - Agriculture Haryana - Industry ( i mean manufacturing)

This I do agree with, specially Punjab. The way it carried on even in the height of terrorism is nothing but spectacular. Let me ask you a question now. Again very anecdotal so take it with a pinch of salt. I did my Engineering from one of the RECs. You have 50% seats reserved for the state (maybe it has changed now), the other 50% of that was open to rest of the country. To get to the top 3 branches - Computer, Electronics, Mechanical - you had to be ranked within 100 of Bihar. When I look back now the Bihari students had their eyes set on MBAs, IASs, IECs etc. Some were thinking of jobs, while the bulk of Southern Indian students had their eyes set on taking the route to US. I know 3 Biharis who work at DRDO, ISRO and BARC from my batch, the Southern chaps I know have mostly earned Green Card. Which state got "richer" you think? :winky: xxxx

[Anonymous]

^^On the contrary, all the govt research institutions like the DRDO, ISRO etc are filled with southies. This proves nothing mate.

[Lurker]

^^On the contrary' date=' all the govt research institutions like the DRDO, ISRO etc are filled with southies.[/quote'] I knew that was coming hence the word anecdotal. It should not be very difficult to verify, principally amongst members of our generation, about how educated folks (technologists in particular) have shown difference in behavior based on the region where they orginally come from.

[ludhianvi]

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What's the secret behind the triple xxx and sometimes even xxxx or no x'es at all? Is it something like this: no x's - normal post xxx - you feel post is great xxxx - a notch higher than a great post What's the mystery? Have I cracked this puzzle? :hmmm: