Vijay.Sharma Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 How can you live in a foreign country and not have some sort of attachment to that place? If you say NO, you are either a liar or just talking out of your ****.Relativity, Sree, relativity. I can say this with the conviction of a gazillion Gods - each one of us in this forum will NECESSARILY change our allegiance based on the prevalent time, space, perspective, and context. Having said that, why is there such a huge hue and cry in the west about the word "liar" and about lying...every bloody westerner I come across on these cricket forums seems to accuse the others of being liars and that lying is worse than a million murders and thousands of rapes? It's like they use the accusation of lying to thwart any bloody debate. If I think differently from you then I am a liar sayeth the westerner! If I say I believe Sachin is the greatest, "liar" sayeth the westerner. Damn it do you even know the meaning of the word, 'liar'? Liar! Bloody bastard Bhajji is a liar! Sachin Tendulkar is a liar because he heard Bhajji say monkey. I am not a liar! Liar! Liar! Liar! Something wrong with the western ethos? Are they so dumb that they don't realize lying is as real and as pervasive as saying the truth???????????????????????????
Vijay.Sharma Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 ^^^ epic rant that one - LOL!
Vijay.Sharma Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 Vijay, I dont unedrstand why you want People born up in another country to show alligiance to India...their parents showing allegiance to India fine,but we dont need to expect same from next generations... even in case of People who went from here to abroad and settled there change alligiance also we cant do anything..thats just individual preference or else they should have stayed here onlyDude, did you even read the OP? Maybe you misunderstood the whole thing. Lemme put it point-wise for easier legibility. 1. Friend of mine said it is immoral/unethical to support India if they were born and brought up outside India 2. I said, dude it's just a game, why you becoming serious? Besides, to each his own. 3. He said his blood boileth because he feels it is un-citizenlike 4. I said, alright dude I post on this cricket forum so lemme start a poll there and I'll let you know the general responses from the guys there. 5. end of story.
bulbul Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Dude, did you even read the OP? Maybe you misunderstood the whole thing. Lemme put it point-wise for easier legibility. 1. Friend of mine said it is immoral/unethical to support India if they were born and brought up outside India 2. I said, dude it's just a game, why you becoming serious? Besides, to each his own. 3. He said his blood boileth because he feels it is un-citizenlike 4. I said, alright dude I post on this cricket forum so lemme start a poll there and I'll let you know the general responses from the guys there. 5. end of story. fine then...but lastmfew posts are bit different to u r OP By the way i ahve similer opinion like u r friend... :winky:
Malcolm Merlyn Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 How can you live in a foreign country and not have some sort of attachment to that place? If you say NO, you are either a liar or just talking out of your ****. So you rooted for the Aussies during the WC QF?
Vijay.Sharma Posted September 13, 2011 Author Posted September 13, 2011 fine then...but lastmfew posts are bit different to u r OP By the way i ahve similer opinion like u r friend... :winky:I am in the mode of 'to each his own' - lol! psst - confession, I support Bangalore more than India though. I can possibly support Kenya when they play India but cannot support Mizoram when they play Bangalore (I mean my support for Ktaka is because it has Bangalore in it...lol)
ravishingravi Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 I think this blog mught be relevant for this thread Patriotism And The NRI [This was published in Yahoo's India@64. Original link here] NRIs are unpatriotic. Having stayed outside the country for many years (twelve and counting), I have heard this and its variations many times. If you are an NRI, chances are you have too. In some form or the other. Let’s look at the first sentence, shall we? We know what an NRI is. Kind of. But what is unpatriotic? To me there are two kinds of patriotism—-Type A wherein people paint the tricolor on their faces, scream “Jeetega bhai jeetega India jeetega” at cricket matches, get all misty-eyed at “Mere Watan Ke Logon” and click “Like” on the “I hate those who hate India” page on Facebook. Then there is Type B, the ones who actually do something for the benefit of Indians, over and above the call of duty. From my personal experience, I can say that the average NRI, in the US at least, is actually more aggressively Type A than their homeland cousins. So by the Type A definition, their patriotism is next to none. This is in many ways natural. In the US, where I stay, a first-generation Indian (the only type who may reasonably be expected to be “patriotic”) despite his best efforts, can never be white. Nor can he be black. Which is why, no matter what his immigration status be in the eyes of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, he will never be American. Definitely not as American as apple pie. Or as Tupac. It’s not just the color of his skin that detaches the first-generation NRI from the American identity. It is the reality of his upbringing, the very fact that he grew up in India watching “Hum Log” and “Buniyaad” instead of “Gilligan’s Island” and “Addam’s Family”. No matter how much he reads up on the rules of baseball so that he may do small-chat with his American colleagues, a baseball game will never conjure up for him images of walking in to the stadium holding dad’s arm and eating hot-dogs at the concession stand. Which is why he will never truly be as emotional over the game as a true-blue. In addition, the almost prevalent ignorance about his country of origin (“Do you guys really drink cow piss?”, “Do you people have modern toilets?” “Would you be allowed to eat with a person of a lower caste?”) in his immediate social context, an ignorance strengthened by simplistic poverty-porn like “Slumdog Millionaire” that defines India in popular culture, makes the average NRI even more conscious of his roots. It makes him that much more protective of his Indian identity, sometimes to the point of being aggressive. Of course this pent-up aggression cannot be given vent to when boss does his best Simpsons-Apu “Thank you come again” accent. At that time, he needs to smile (else he will be considered “not a sport”). But the anger does need out, else he will burst. Some give in to gratuitous self-flagellation in the hope that he can get rid of the brown tag. But most react to the incessant cultural push by becoming even more “Indian”. This strengthening of identity is manifested through regular attendance at India Association meetings every weekend, threats to cut off junior’s allowance if he/she does not attend “Indian cultural workshops” and ceaseless trolling of anyone who thinks “Rang De Basanti”‘s vision of redemptive justice rather disturbing. One would say of course that when an NRI is accused of being “unpatriotic”, it is in the Type B sense. In other words, jingoistic as he be, he does not do anything for the country. Since this accusation comes primarily from non-NRIs, the assumption is clear “The person who stays in India, by the very act of staying, does more for the country than the NRI. ” Whenever I have asked “How is the homeland Indian more patriotic by definition?”, the answer I get, most often, is ” We pay taxes to the Indian nation.” My counter to that is “You pay taxes, because you have to.” You pay only the amount the law dictates, taking advantage of every opportunity for deductions. Nothing wrong in that of course. What however is “not on” is when this kind of altruism-out-of-compulsion is presented as an act of patriotism, as if one had any choice to do otherwise. If there is someone out there who is paying more tax than he is legally obliged to pay then yes, that person is definitely “patriotic”. But can we agree that if such people do exist in this world, they are the exceptions rather than the rule? And that there is nothing that prevents a NRI, if he be so inclined, from sending an envelope stuffed with cash to the Indian exchequer. Is that likely? No. But then neither is the hypothetical homeland Indian who overpays tax intentionally. The other argument I hear is: ” By staying in India, the homeland Indian works for companies that operate locally. Thus his brain is put to the service of the nation.” Another closely related argument is that “The homeland Indian buys “Indian goods”, thus facilitating the flow of service and goods in the Indian economy.” I have two problems with this. One is that in today’s globalized economy, how is working for Indian company Wiprosys more “patriotic” than working for US company Microgle, when most likely the project you are working at Wiprosys is actually doing contract work for Microgle? Who is benefiting from your brain? The answer—the world. As for spending money in India, whose economy do you think is benefited by the iPad or the Motorola phone you bought in Delhi or Bangalore? The answer—–the world’s. I also fail to see the patriotism in providing a service and getting paid for it. The only exception to this are people of the armed forces; their patriotism is beyond question. Why? Because their calling carries with it the threat of death and serious injury and the salaries they receive do not compensate for that possibility—-it needs a special kind of person to be ready to make the supreme sacrifice and on the nobility of that, there can be no dispute. And as for contributing to the economy, if we are going to be splitting hairs, I can say that the NRI also spends on their annual visits to the homeland. Spends quite a bit I can say from personal experience. Many send money back and buy property in India, thus oiling the wheels of the economy almost as well as the homelander. Again that he does so is driven by his personal interest and not from an inherent desire to go good for the country. Same then for the non-NRIs. And if we are looking for true Type B patriots, you will find them outside the country as well as inside. And I am not just talking about the many who press a button and send a cheque to an Indian charity. Not that that in itself is not significant. I am talking about those NRIs who put in labor, taking time out from their jobs and their research, so that things may be better in India. I am talking about those running in marathons to raise money for Indian causes, those volunteering resources for organizing fund-raising events, those who take out time from the 2 weeks they get to go to India to trek to the backwaters and check on projects that are being supported, those who are working to supplement the Indian government’s meager lobbying efforts on Capitol Hills using their own resources. And many others. Are there self-loathing, “India sucks” type here abroad? You bet there are. But for each one of them, I can show you one homelander who feels the exact same way. And for every NRI who does nothing for the country, you will definitely find one homelander who does exactly that. In today’s globalized world, in which where one stays and works is merely an accident of convenience and opportunity, belittling someone’s love for their country and their contribution to it, purely on the basis of where they live, is intellectual laziness at the best. And a sneering “I am better than you” at the worst. http://greatbong.net/2011/08/13/patriotism-and-the-nri/
Lurker Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 I think such kids are very small in number compared to the populace coming over and settling here. H1s usually opt for GCs and then for citizenships. Not many have gone back with US citizen kids compared to those who chose to become US citizens themselves. As I said in my post to which you have replied, it was about Indians who are here on deputation. So obviously unless they jump ship they wont become part of the whole H1-EAD-GC process. The numbers would surprise you if you work in atmosphere which has IT giants. Too often couples land here and get pregnant. Is it nature, is it planned? Not sure but what is sure is the pride that comes about when the statement regarding kid having no visa issue pops up. Aren't you one of those who came to US on free-will? Why this cynicism then? Thought I had answered this as well. I have no intentions of trading my passport. So what you deem as cynism is merely a statement of fact..maybe not much tact though lol.
Vijay.Sharma Posted September 14, 2011 Author Posted September 14, 2011 As I said in my post to which you have replied' date=' it was about Indians who are here on deputation. So obviously unless they jump ship they wont become part of the whole H1-EAD-GC process. The numbers would surprise you if you work in atmosphere which has IT giants. Too often couples land here and get pregnant. Is it nature, is it planned? Not sure but what is sure is the pride that comes about when the statement regarding kid having no visa issue pops up.[/quote']Maybe if the US Govt made a rule such that a kid born in the US when his parents are on a work visa will not be considered a citizen of the USA might mitigate that risk. What's stopping a couple from taking a vacation to the USA when they know they are due in say a couple of weeks time? So they might be in the USA on a tourist visa and yet the new born is amreeki - is that allowed? Crazy really, the situation is.
Vijay.Sharma Posted September 14, 2011 Author Posted September 14, 2011 I think this blog mught be relevant for this thread Patriotism And The NRIIt is a good read...thanks for sharing it. I find the guy agreeing to my own view on such matters. This guy actually writes well...have a read a couple of his blog posts and totally liked the way he makes his point. I think both the times I was directed to his blog from one of your posts here.
Malcolm Merlyn Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 NRIs:Non Reliable Individuals.....................Loyalty?Whatcha Talking Brah?
Lurker Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Maybe if the US Govt made a rule such that a kid born in the US when his parents are on a work visa will not be considered a citizen of the USA might mitigate that risk. What's stopping a couple from taking a vacation to the USA when they know they are due in say a couple of weeks time? So they might be in the USA on a tourist visa and yet the new born is amreeki - is that allowed? Crazy really, the situation is. United States won't. For the same reason most Western countries wont. They are in a way victim of their own policy. You can't celebrate USA's success without talking of hard work that immigrants have put in....and then you can not make a turnaround on that as well lol. The situation in Europe is similar, countries like Germany are chastised for not being open and immigration friendly, and those that are immigration friendly are facing severe issues. Damned if you do, damned if you dont. This is where we have to look at responsibility of immigration nations as well. That hardly gets talked about as it is a touchy topic, and involves alot of preaching, but has to happen sooner than later. xx
Vijay.Sharma Posted September 14, 2011 Author Posted September 14, 2011 United States won't. For the same reason most Western countries wont. They are in a way victim of their own policy. You can't celebrate USA's success without talking of hard work that immigrants have put in....and then you can not make a turnaround on that as well lol. The situation in Europe is similar, countries like Germany are chastised for not being open and immigration friendly, and those that are immigration friendly are facing severe issues. Damned if you do, damned if you dont. This is where we have to look at responsibility of immigration nations as well. That hardly gets talked about as it is a touchy topic, and involves alot of preaching, but has to happen sooner than later. xxSo technically a kid who is born in the USA when both his parents are just there on a holiday, is a citizen of the country?
Lurker Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 So technically a kid who is born in the USA when both his parents are just there on a holiday' date=' is a citizen of the country?[/quote'] Yes. If you are born in US, or its territories a la Puerto Rico, you are an automatic citizen.
Vijay.Sharma Posted September 14, 2011 Author Posted September 14, 2011 Yes. If you are born in US' date=' or its territories a la Puerto Rico, you are an automatic citizen.[/quote']Would the baby then need a visa to enter his parents' country? Also since in many eastern countries we don't name the kid until after they are born, how does that work out? One more question - obviously the kid would need a passport if they have to fly back to parents' home. It gets done immediately? OK, this is a 'too much' question - what if kid is born in the flight/ship when destination is: parents' home, vacation spot?
Lurker Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Would the baby then need a visa to enter his parents' country? Also since in many eastern countries we don't name the kid until after they are born, how does that work out? One more question - obviously the kid would need a passport if they have to fly back to parents' home. It gets done immediately? OK, this is a 'too much' question - what if kid is born in the flight/ship when destination is: parents' home, vacation spot? Yes the kid would need a visa to go to India. How long it takes would be something yours truly wouldn't know lol. But yeah the kid would carry a US passport and go thru all the usual process an American undergoes. You may wanna check with American-Indians for those info.
coffee_rules Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Would the baby then need a visa to enter his parents' country? Also since in many eastern countries we don't name the kid until after they are born, how does that work out? One more question - obviously the kid would need a passport if they have to fly back to parents' home. It gets done immediately? OK, this is a 'too much' question - what if kid is born in the flight/ship when destination is: parents' home, vacation spot? Yes, the kid would need Visa to go to India. Nowadays OCI will give them lifelong Visa. Some euro countries - UK, France, Germany, Singapore etc. allow US citizens without any Visa. You have to name the kid the day it is born, get the birth certificate from the city/hospital. Apply for Passport/Visa etc. It takes about 2-3 months. If we expediate it takes about 1-2 months.
Vijay.Sharma Posted September 16, 2011 Author Posted September 16, 2011 Wow! So for the desis who want Amreeki passports, etc that is the best thing to do. Get pregnant and a week before you are due go to the US for a holiday. Yay, my baby is an Amreeki!!! Will the US Govt be willing to, on humanitarian grounds, provide some kinda work visa to the father/mother to work in the USA so the baby can stay in the USA? Edit - By the way, what happens if the kid is born in the plane?
coffee_rules Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 Wow! So for the desis who want Amreeki passports, etc that is the best thing to do. Get pregnant and a week before you are due go to the US for a holiday. Yay, my baby is an Amreeki!!! Will the US Govt be willing to, on humanitarian grounds, provide some kinda work visa to the father/mother to work in the USA so the baby can stay in the USA? Edit - By the way, what happens if the kid is born in the plane? I don't believe anybody plans it that. I know of a friend here on a "project" who was here for 2 years, his wife got pregnant, went to India to deliver the baby. No work visa from Govt, they have to get a H1/work visa themselves (get a employer), if they want to raise the kid in USA Kids born in plane, will be deported back immediately. j/k. WTF knows!
Ram Posted September 16, 2011 Posted September 16, 2011 When it comes to patriotism, there's really only one group that can brag about it - The Armed forces. The rest of us can just talk the talk. If somebody asks me what the 5 most patriotic things I have done in the last 5 years, I'd honestly struggle come up with 2 (Rooting for India in the WC, shedding tears of joy when we won the cup etc dont count as patriotic acts, in my opinion) When it comes to the rest of us, our loyalites, fairly and squarely, lies with the $$$$$$ and more comfortable living environs. You flip the exchange rate between the $ and the rupee so that One rupee is worth $40 and I can guarantee you, 95% of the desi gangs will be outta here in a week. Of course, there are other isolated instances of people wanting to pursue their passions in Science and math with post-graduate degrees and those are invariably found only in the West.
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