Impressed by Aaron

[AnkurUpadhyay]

Morne took 25 wickets @24.40 in 2013, 20 wickets @21.15 in 2012, 26 wickets @17.65 in 2011 and 19 wickets @22.84 in 2010. If any of this is ordinary, your expectations are way too high. Interesting about flat pitches in domestic cricket. Varun Aaron has played 11 domestic one-dayers and has taken 23 wickets @17.48. When you're good, you're good. When you're not, you just aren't. Who says we have a predominantly medium pace attack? We have Bhuvneshwar who is early-mid 130s, Shami who is late 130s-early 140s and Varun Aaron who is early 140s. A varied attack with varying speeds and various strengths. As opposed to having both Aaron and Yadav like some speed junkies suggest and having two bowlers who bowl at the same speed, same height and same angle. That'll make Yadav even less effective than he already is.

Who is asking to include both Yadav and Aaron in the playing 11 at the same time? We are just saying that Yadav and Aaron are both must in selected 15. You can't except Aaron and Shami to play every match. We must have a good pacer as back up. And Yadav is the only choice we have.

[King Tendulkar]

Dont woryy 90 mph aaron wont play. Instead we will bring in 72mph Binny. We are a joke

[TNAmarkFrmIndia]

Don't try your socks off in making him understand. He is only looking at strike rate and economy. He has no idea that how different are Yadav and Ishant bowling. Yadav looks threatening in most of his spells. He sometimes goes for runs too but I have never seen a batsman coming half way down the track to him. While Batsman charge Ishant from the first ball. Ishant has no respect in the eyes of batsman. They play him like a spinner.

The same way you're looking at only speed. The same way you don't see that Yadav is as clueless about bowling in one-dayers as Ishant is. The same way you don't realise that Yadav is as erratic as any bowler we've had. But he's a good bowler. Why? Because "he bowls like a pacer" and "runs in hard". Brilliant. At the end of the day, both he and Ishant will run in, bowl with different intents and achieve the same exact thing. Leaking runs and not taking wickets. It's just that Yadav is worse than Ishant at that. Having the intent to make something happen is great, but when you're repeatedly getting taken for runs and not getting the results, you're just bowling for the opposite team. Yadav got the opportunity to play in seamer-friendly conditions in England and South Africa and yet couldn't take wickets. You speak of him like he's some strike bowler when he's the complete opposite. His erratic bowling takes the pressure off the batting team because they don't need to worry about the pressure the other bowlers put on them. It gets to the point where we're virtually one bowler short because the frontline bowler is doing worse than a part-timer would and we have to bring in the part-time spinners to limit the damage already done. But no, let's not ever put the blame on Yadav because the guy "bowls like a pace bowler" and "runs in hard". Ridiculous.

[TNAmarkFrmIndia]

Who is asking to include both Yadav and Aaron in the playing 11 at the same time?

The OP did on another thread. Few others agreed with him too.

We must have a good pacer as back up. And Yadav is the only choice we have.

Even Vinay Kumar would be less of a burden on the team than Yadav would.

[CSK Fan]

Even Vinay Kumar would be less of a burden on the team than Yadav would.

And you base this on how many matches? Many fast bowlers were extremely wayward in their initial matches but continued international exposure, mentoring and most of all backing of their captain turned them into lethal weapons We never even have the guts to give a fast bowler a decent run and then we complain that we never have a good fast bowler. A soft cowardly approach will only produce cowardly bowlers

[express bowling]

Morne took 25 wickets @24.40 in 2013, 20 wickets @21.15 in 2012, 26 wickets @17.65 in 2011 and 19 wickets @22.84 in 2010. If any of this is ordinary, your expectations are way too high. Interesting about flat pitches in domestic cricket. Varun Aaron has played 11 domestic one-dayers and has taken 23 wickets @17.48. When you're good, you're good. When you're not, you just aren't. Who says we have a predominantly medium pace attack? We have Bhuvneshwar who is early-mid 130s, Shami who is late 130s-early 140s and Varun Aaron who is early 140s. A varied attack with varying speeds and various strengths. As opposed to having both Aaron and Yadav like some speed junkies suggest and having two bowlers who bowl at the same speed, same height and same angle. That'll make Yadav even less effective than he already is.

I was talking about Morkel in tests. I was pointing out that often genuine quicks are included to soften up batsmen even when they are not taking wickets.Morkel debuted in 2006 and till 2008 he took 46 wickets in14 matches @ 32.4. From 2009 till now , he has taken 137 wickets from 38 tests @ 29. He was not really a wicket taker by SAF standards. But persisted with because of his pace and bounce. I am not really calling Umesh a good ODI bowler, especially in subcontinent conditions. I am talking about the need to have a genuine quick, especially in overseas ODIs. If Aaron is absent then Umesh can be used to provide some real pace. He is decent in overseas ODIs. The bowling combination is very important. Bhuvi is very medium pace. Anybody who cannot hit the deck hard and bowls less than 135 k a lot definitely is one. Even Ishant is not generating any extra pace this season. Only Shami is lively. Aaron has not yet been included in the 11. If Shami, Aaron and Bhuvi are combined then the pace of the attack as a whole would be an acceptable one.

[express bowling]

Don't try your socks off in making him understand. He is only looking at strike rate and economy. He has no idea that how different are Yadav and Ishant bowling. Yadav looks threatening in most of his spells. He sometimes goes for runs too but I have never seen a batsman coming half way down the track to him. While Batsman charge Ishant from the first ball. Ishant has no respect in the eyes of batsman. They play him like a spinner. He is not comparing Ishant and Yadav bowling wise. He is comparing stats wise. All Ishant tries to do is stop runs and fails at it miserably too while Yadav goes for runs because he tries to go for the kill. Theres a big difference in their mentality. Yadav bowls like a pacer, runs in hard, tries to make things happen( sometimes too much, i admit). While Ishant runs in without any purpose. He need to understand that he is most experienced pacer in this Indian line up. He must feel proud and give his all. But why should he? Afterall, he never had to work hard to attain this position. He can bowl rubbish over after over, match after match, series after series, but Dhoni will still select him. Why should he improve? Why should he work hard? Why should he improve his seam position. He just doesn't need to. Only if Dhoni backed some better pacers like Yadav or Aaron or Pankaj Singh.

In a country like India, without any fast bowling culture present, motivating and channeling a real quick is even more important. So many young fast bowlers all over the world are erratic. Which direction they will take often depends on the way they are motivated and handled. Umesh is not being utilized properly by our team management.

[jf1gp_1]

Dont woryy 90 mph aaron wont play. Instead we will bring in 72mph Binny. We are a joke

Is he still bowling 85-90 post injury ?

[TNAmarkFrmIndia]

And you base this on how many matches? Many fast bowlers were extremely wayward in their initial matches but continued international exposure' date=' mentoring and most of all backing of their captain turned them into lethal weapons[/quote'] Umesh Yadav has played 28 ODIs. Among them have been matches in Australia, England and South Africa. Seamer friendly conditions in all 3 countries yet Yadav has done poorly every time. It's not like he hasn't been given enough chances. He has and he's just proved to be nothing but expensive every single time. Most "lethal weapons" while being wayward showed potential of being strike bowlers early on. Umesh Yadav has shown none of that. Maybe he'll learn to be a more efficient one-day bowler down the line, but for now, he's rightfully not in the ODI team.

[gattaca]

Umesh Yadav has played 28 ODIs. Among them have been matches in Australia, England and South Africa. Seamer friendly conditions in all 3 countries yet Yadav has done poorly every time. It's not like he hasn't been given enough chances. He has and he's just proved to be nothing but expensive every single time. Most "lethal weapons" while being wayward showed potential of being strike bowlers early on. Umesh Yadav has shown none of that. Maybe he'll learn to be a more efficient one-day bowler down the line, but for now, he's rightfully not in the ODI team.

We are ok with Ishant playing 150 matches. But not even 50 for umesh. I agree he is wayward but should be given more chances.

[AnkurUpadhyay]

Umesh Yadav has played 28 ODIs. Among them have been matches in Australia, England and South Africa. Seamer friendly conditions in all 3 countries yet Yadav has done poorly every time. It's not like he hasn't been given enough chances. He has and he's just proved to be nothing but expensive every single time. Most "lethal weapons" while being wayward showed potential of being strike bowlers early on. Umesh Yadav has shown none of that. Maybe he'll learn to be a more efficient one-day bowler down the line, but for now, he's rightfully not in the ODI team.

Have you ever seen Umesh bowl? You are comparing him with Vinay Kumar. Really? Why don't you give me a list of pacers that you will select ahead of Yadav in LOIs? Yadav is a geniune wicket taker and I am not a speed-junkie like others. But he is a serious talent with many things going well for him. He can outswing the ball at high pace, has a sharp bouncer and I have seen him bowling yorkers too. How many Indian bowlers can do that? Pace bowlers need backing from their captain. Yadav has got none till now. He is playing for an ultra-defensive captain that loves only trundlers and spinners. 28 matches over 3 years is not a large enough sample. This only means that he was never given an extended run. Mitchell Johnson at the start of his career was equally erratic but Australia persisted with him and now you know why. Fast bowlers can push batsmen on the backfoot, soften them up. You have no problem in letting Ishant play 70+ ODIs with nothing going on for him. Mitchell McClenaghan has a very high ER too despite playing in pacer-friendly conditions but his captain backs him consistently and that's why he pick wickets. You don't get high quality pacers ready made. Backing a pacer is very important. They may be erratic at the start of their careers but if you back them, they learn how to bowl according to the conditions. But we expect miracles from them from the first day. That's why, we didn't have good pacers in our entire cricketing history. We can support a rubbish medium pacer that would be carted to every corners of the field consistently, but we would never support a talented pacer that can late swing the ball at high pace. It has been our mentality through out and I can't see it changing anytime soon. On top of that, with these new rules you can't really contain batsmen by trying to bowl accurately (not that we have accurate medium pacers either) and defensively. With 2 bouncer rule and only 3 fielders outside the circle, you need pacers that can take wickets. and Yadav is one of the very ones India have.

[express bowling]

@ Ankur Umesh has a strike rate of 46 in 9 tests, not a very small sample size ( excellent by international standards ), . In first class matches it is 50. It proves that he is a wicket taker at any level. Anybody who can takes wickets in tests can surely take wickets in ODIs . If he is not doing so then that means he needs a bit of guidance. He is erratic and expensive. But, he has wicket taking ability and the team management needs to give him support, confidence and guidance and harness this ability rather than leave him out in the cold.

[rkt.india]

@ Ankur Umesh has a strike rate of 46 in 9 tests, not a very small sample size ( excellent by international standards ), . In first class matches it is 50. It proves that he is a wicket taker at any level. Anybody who can takes wickets in tests can surely take wickets in ODIs . If he is not doing so then that means he needs a bit of guidance. He is erratic and expensive. But, he has wicket taking ability and the team management needs to give him support, confidence and guidance and harness this ability rather than leave him out in the cold.

You need an aggressive captain to use such bowlers. What Dhoni wants is consistent bowling so that he can contain. Not every bowler can bowl at pace and also contain. Bowl at pace means you have an ammunition to use and now it depends on you how do you use that. Dhoni says you cannot spoon feed bowlers. He wants ready made Dale Steyns who will start doing everything on their own whenever they play even if they are coming form a long break. You need to guide and tell these guys what he should do. We are not blessed with a fast bowling culture unlike some other countries. Here it is difficult for bowlers to progress once they show promise because of lack of spoon feeding. I remember Wasim Akram telling his story when he was young. Imran used to stand at mid on or mid off and before every ball, he used to go to Imran and would ask what to bowl now. This is how he learned his bowling by this spoon feeding from Imran.

[AnkurUpadhyay]

@ Ankur Umesh has a strike rate of 46 in 9 tests, not a very small sample size ( excellent by international standards ), . In first class matches it is 50. It proves that he is a wicket taker at any level. Anybody who can takes wickets in tests can surely take wickets in ODIs . If he is not doing so then that means he needs a bit of guidance. He is erratic and expensive. But, he has wicket taking ability and the team management needs to give him support, confidence and guidance and harness this ability rather than leave him out in the cold.

You need an aggressive captain to use such bowlers. What Dhoni wants is consistent bowling so that he can contain. Not every bowler can bowl at pace and also contain. Bowl at pace means you have an ammunition to use and now it depends on you how do you use that. Dhoni says you cannot spoon feed bowlers. He wants ready made Dale Steyns who will start doing everything on their own whenever they play even if they are coming form a long break. You need to guide and tell these guys what he should do. We are not blessed with a fast bowling culture unlike some other countries. Here it is difficult for bowlers to progress once they show promise because of lack of spoon feeding. I remember Wasim Akram telling his story when he was young. Imran used to stand at mid on or mid off and before every ball, he used to go to Imran and would ask what to bowl now. This is how he learned his bowling by this spoon feeding from Imran.

+1. That's what I was saying. Dhoni as a captain is any fast bowler's worst nightmare.

[CSK Fan]

You need an aggressive captain to use such bowlers. What Dhoni wants is consistent bowling so that he can contain. Not every bowler can bowl at pace and also contain. Bowl at pace means you have an ammunition to use and now it depends on you how do you use that. Dhoni says you cannot spoon feed bowlers. He wants ready made Dale Steyns who will start doing everything on their own whenever they play even if they are coming form a long break. You need to guide and tell these guys what he should do. We are not blessed with a fast bowling culture unlike some other countries. Here it is difficult for bowlers to progress once they show promise because of lack of spoon feeding. I remember Wasim Akram telling his story when he was young. Imran used to stand at mid on or mid off and before every ball, he used to go to Imran and would ask what to bowl now. This is how he learned his bowling by this spoon feeding from Imran.

Forget pacers, even someone like BK went from a wicket taking bowler to a container in a few matches. Bhajji and Ashwin too became more and more defensive and focused on saving runs

[rkt.india]

Forget pacers' date=' even someone like BK went from a wicket taking bowler to a container in a few matches. Bhajji and Ashwin too became more and more defensive and focused on saving runs.[/quote'] That included every pacer even BK. It is the mindset which is not letting bowlers develop. Look at Johnson, Nile, Pattinson, Faulkner all are going for runs. At Perth, Johnson is taken for over 7 an over, but they will still play him and others.

[ShebbySB]

Binny & Aaron will come in for Ashwin & Ishant.......well hopefully:pray:

[TNAmarkFrmIndia]

Have you ever seen Umesh bowl? You are comparing him with Vinay Kumar. Really? Why don't you give me a list of pacers that you will select ahead of Yadav in LOIs?

Ishwar Pandey, Shrikant Wagh, Parwinder Awana and Sandeep Sharma. And that's just among those who haven't played an ODI yet.

Yadav is a geniune wicket taker and I am not a speed-junkie like others. But he is a serious talent with many things going well for him. He can outswing the ball at high pace' date=' has a sharp bouncer and I have seen him bowling yorkers too. How many Indian bowlers can do that?[/quote'] Yadav kya tumhare sapne mein bowling karne aaya tha? Yadav and "genuine wicket taker" can NOT be used in the same sentence. He has often been brought on at crucial times and has failed to strike nearly every time. His swing movement is negligible at best and both his yorkers and bouncers are inaccurate more often than not. He has the tendency to spray the ball around. Even Shaun Tait has the ability to produce that one unplayable delivery after spraying it around but not this guy. The success of Mohammed Shami as our strike bowler proves otherwise. Dhoni often picked Yadav in the hope of him providing the attacking option and taking wickets, but he has been utterly useless in that regard. Even after being spoonfed just like Ishant, his inaccuracy meant that he was taken for runs every time. Not even once did he show the potential of being an ODI strike bowler. You're kidding, right? Mitchell Johnson's left-arm round angle was proving to be a handful when he came in. I still remember his spell that destroyed the Indian top order in the DLF Cup in Malaysia early on in his career. He didn't get a consistent run in the Australian team because they already had a strong bowling line-up. McClenaghan from Day 1 proved that he was a genuine wicket-taker when he blew away the South African batting line-up. Umesh Yadav couldn't even bother the Zimbabwe batsmen when he came in and was quite responsible for us losing to them. This "push batsmen on the backfoot" talk is BS because Yadav lacks any sort of accuracy or consistency to put any pressure on the batsmen. 140+ kph bowlers are dime-a-dozen all over the world nowadays and speed alone won't make you an effective bowler.

[AnkurUpadhyay]

Ishwar Pandey' date= Shrikant Wagh, Parwinder Awana and Sandeep Sharma. And that's just among those who haven't played an ODI yet. Yadav kya tumhare sapne mein bowling karne aaya tha? Yadav and "genuine wicket taker" can NOT be used in the same sentence. He has often been brought on at crucial times and has failed to strike nearly every time. His swing movement is negligible at best and both his yorkers and bouncers are inaccurate more often than not. He has the tendency to spray the ball around. Even Shaun Tait has the ability to produce that one unplayable delivery after spraying it around but not this guy. The success of Mohammed Shami as our strike bowler proves otherwise. Dhoni often picked Yadav in the hope of him providing the attacking option and taking wickets, but he has been utterly useless in that regard. Even after being spoonfed just like Ishant, his inaccuracy meant that he was taken for runs every time. Not even once did he show the potential of being an ODI strike bowler. You're kidding, right? Mitchell Johnson's left-arm round angle was proving to be a handful when he came in. I still remember his spell that destroyed the Indian top order in the DLF Cup in Malaysia early on in his career. He didn't get a consistent run in the Australian team because they already had a strong bowling line-up. McClenaghan from Day 1 proved that he was a genuine wicket-taker when he blew away the South African batting line-up. Umesh Yadav couldn't even bother the Zimbabwe batsmen when he came in and was quite responsible for us losing to them. This "push batsmen on the backfoot" talk is BS because Yadav lacks any sort of accuracy or consistency to put any pressure on the batsmen. 140+ kph bowlers are dime-a-dozen all over the world nowadays and speed alone won't make you an effective bowler.

I will reply to your post later but couldn't stop myself from asking this question. Pandey : Still unproven. God knows how he will bowl. Awana : He already got his chance. According to you, he must be ultra rubbish because in those limited opportunities, he absolutely did nothing. Wagh : Really? What has he done to deserve a spot? Sandeep Sharma : Still very inexperienced and lacks pace. He is still not ready for international cricket. With Praveen Kumaresque pace, He will be taken to cleaners in LOIs. Any other names? We need at least 5 pacers (or may be 6) in Australia. List 6 pacers that should be selected ahead of Yadav. and Don't give me that Dhoni tried to use Yadav as a strike bowler crap. Dhoni only knows how to convert a strike bowler into a stock bowler. No team depends on a single strike bowler. Do you really think that Shami is enough for WC. If Dhoni keep on captaining the same way, Shami would convert into a stock bowler sooner than later just like Bhuvi did.

[ShebbySB]

Our seamers for test matches should be:-Shami,Umesh,BK,Pandey,Aaron. For LOIs:-Shami,BK,Aaron,Dhawal,1 among Pandey,Suyal & Shukla.Bumrah should be picked for the A tours,if he performs he can be a good LOI bowler for us.Ishant should be no where near the national team & Zak should retire after the NZ test series.