Indian Trundlers take note

[panther]

i watch cricket because of pace bowling it brings excitement to the game something a trundler never will do

[Old guy]

so how long would you give somebody like Ishant sharma who bowls usually in the 130-140 zone in most games i have seen. Ie is a proper fast bowling even though not express pace like a Brett Lee or Actor. 41 tests averaging 36 with the ball and a lot more against established test nations. Now he is 23 at this moment and have played a lot more test cricket than anybody i can think of in international cricket at that age and if a fast bowler. How long will you give a person like Ishant to get his act together and starting putting in good performances in all formats? I ask cause I want to know your parameter for reward.

until we find a better bowler .. and i think he has been bowling quick lately and if he stays fit in this tour .. i think he will really bowl well

[G_B_]

until we find a better bowler .. and i think he has been bowling quick lately and if he stays fit in this tour .. i think he will really bowl well

well suppose Varun Aaron starts putting in good performances or even Umesh, who looks at this moment like somebody who is as quick if not quicker than Ishant does very well. In that case i dont mind a trundler like PK who can swing it both ways to add variety to the attack. India play 2 spinners at home, so basically you will imo for the next 2 years play zaheer and Varun/Umesh and 2 spinners. I feel personally i would rather have somebody with guile like Zaheer, an out and out fast bowler like Umesh/Varun and a trundler like Pk/some in form swing bowler and a spinner. Variety over fast simply for fast for me. IMO India have been very patient with Ishant. He has to deliver now. Simply pace cannot save him. So i dont buy this accusation of there being no reward for bowling pace. Varun aaron has barely played enough first class games and he has a **** ranji average and was called up only cause of his pace. I think injuries are a bigger bar to bowling fast in India.

[bulbul]

I too watched Macgrath in mid 90s and he was never a genuine quick.I certainly dont remember him bowling consistently in 140ks.

may be you watched in Slow motion.. no body disagrees here with xPertz :--D

[Number]

so how long would you give somebody like Ishant sharma who bowls usually in the 130-140 zone in most games i have seen. Ie is a proper fast bowling even though not express pace like a Brett Lee or Actor. 41 tests averaging 36 with the ball and a lot more against established test nations. Now he is 23 at this moment and have played a lot more test cricket than anybody i can think of in international cricket at that age and if a fast bowler. How long will you give a person like Ishant to get his act together and starting putting in good performances in all formats? I ask cause I want to know your parameter for reward.

Zak averaged 37 till he was 29. Also Ishant averages 28 in India , kind of achievement as we rarely had these kind of pacers. That said , he needs to improve certain aspects of his bowling and I think with experience he'll be able to do that.

[G_B_]

Zak averaged 37 till he was 29. Also Ishant averages 28 in India , kind of achievement as we rarely had these kind of pacers. That said , he needs to improve certain aspects of his bowling and I think with experience he'll be able to do that.

32.17 he averages in india http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236779.html?class=1;template=results;type=allround even there you take out the windies against whom he seems to do well even that average touches 36-37 at home. His only saving grace is that he is only 23 and has a lot way to go. 23 is still young for international cricket. But his stats are not impressive by any stretch of the imagination.

[bulbul]

32.17 he averages in india http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236779.html?class=1;template=results;type=allround even there you take out the windies against whom he seems to do well even that average touches 36-37 at home. His only saving grace is that he is only 23 and has a lot way to go. 23 is still young for international cricket. But his stats are not impressive by any stretch of the imagination.

he looks good becuase others are bad..this is the story of Indian bowlers :banghead:

[G_B_]

he looks good becuase others are bad..this is the story of Indian bowlers :banghead:

to be honest PK looked much better in England and WI. Lets not forget he averaged 29.5 v England in that totally god awful series for India with no support having to bowl way too many overs cause others were just not performing. I think if PK can do that the odds are in his favour he will do a better job in Aus. Praveen does average 18 with the ball in the ODIs when he played the CB series v Aus and looked right at home. In the final against aus he took 4/46 and was the man of the match http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/291372.html So i dont know why ETTC said that Praven would not work in Australia. Ishant sharma has another repeat of a tour of England then i would axe him. Not permanently drop him, but its time to accept he is not learning anything playing for India. Maybe its time for him to play in the counties.

[Old guy]

well suppose Varun Aaron starts putting in good performances or even Umesh, who looks at this moment like somebody who is as quick if not quicker than Ishant does very well. In that case i dont mind a trundler like PK who can swing it both ways to add variety to the attack. India play 2 spinners at home, so basically you will imo for the next 2 years play zaheer and Varun/Umesh and 2 spinners. I feel personally i would rather have somebody with guile like Zaheer, an out and out fast bowler like Umesh/Varun and a trundler like Pk/some in form swing bowler and a spinner. Variety over fast simply for fast for me. IMO India have been very patient with Ishant. He has to deliver now. Simply pace cannot save him. So i dont buy this accusation of there being no reward for bowling pace. Varun aaron has barely played enough first class games and he has a **** ranji average and was called up only cause of his pace. I think injuries are a bigger bar to bowling fast in India.

i think its more about potential with bowlers best averages in indian ranjis are of medium pacers not even fast medium.. about aaron its minor injury he can actually play australian odis if he performs better than ishant then automatically he is in and pk too is in whenever india tours outside of sub continent thing with ishant is he mixxes brilliance with mediocrity remember lords 2nd innings? well that spell shows wht ishant can do easily if he get things right im willing to give him chance cos if he comes off and fulfills his potential he can be one of the best in the world but ya i think this series is his last chance after htis he will need to prove himself in county like zaheer did aaron will be back.. yadav from looks of it will perform consistently

[G_B_]

i think its more about potential with bowlers best averages in indian ranjis are of medium pacers not even fast medium.. about aaron its minor injury he can actually play australian odis if he performs better than ishant then automatically he is in and pk too is in whenever india tours outside of sub continent thing with ishant is he mixxes brilliance with mediocrity remember lords 2nd innings? well that spell shows wht ishant can do easily if he get things right im willing to give him chance cos if he comes off and fulfills his potential he can be one of the best in the world but ya i think this series is his last chance after htis he will need to prove himself in county like zaheer did aaron will be back.. yadav from looks of it will perform consistently

best averages yes. But aaron averages 41 with the ball in the ranji. In contrast somebody like Umesh has played enough ranji matches and averages 25 with the ball. He may not have the best average but those numbers are good. even dinda has some good numbers in this season. Yes ishant shows flashes of brilliance. But my patience with him is wearing thin. the question you need to be asking yourself is why do you even have to point to a specific point about ishant to justify his selection. As i said before, he averages something like 60 with the ball as he did last tour of aus its time for us to drop him and let him play county cricket and let him fight his way back for his place regardless of his competition does for a certain period of time.

[Old guy]

best averages yes. But aaron averages 41 with the ball in the ranji. In contrast somebody like Umesh has played enough ranji matches and averages 25 with the ball. He may not have the best average but those numbers are good. even dinda has some good numbers in this season. Yes ishant shows flashes of brilliance. But my patience with him is wearing thin. the question you need to be asking yourself is why do you even have to point to a specific point about ishant to justify his selection. As i said before, he averages something like 60 with the ball as he did last tour of aus its time for us to drop him and let him play county cricket and let him fight his way back for his place regardless of his competition does for a certain period of time.

thats wht i said.. but from looks of it he has improved a lot compare his bowling against south africa and now in recent home series against west indies he bowled well.. was really unlucky tbh even i think this series is ognna be his turning point or he will get dropped since he is only 23 thats not a problem

[G_B_]

his doctors said he would be fit by wednesday i do hope he comes out to bowl out the Aussie chairman's 11 tail

[Number]

32.17 he averages in india http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236779.html?class=1;template=results;type=allround even there you take out the windies against whom he seems to do well even that average touches 36-37 at home. His only saving grace is that he is only 23 and has a lot way to go. 23 is still young for international cricket. But his stats are not impressive by any stretch of the imagination.

oh...before the last home series against wi he averaged 28 in 13 games in india. Didn't get enough wickets there but his bowling wasn't as bad as his stats are ... His stats are not impressive but still no. of good performances that he has produced , still he is ahead of other pacers that we have. Barring Pk , who hasn't played a test in India. If we find someone better , he will be picked ahead of Ishant. I agree with what you've said above .. PK deserves a run when he comes back. Can't discard him just because he doesn't have pace.

[Karan114]

Apparently Ishant is going to undergo surgery after the Australia tour and will be out for six months (http://cricket.expressindia.com/news/No-injury--Ishant-expected-to-be-in-playing-XI-for-first-Test/889914/) so there will be opportunities for the other pacers, anyway.

[singhprakash72]

For Fast or Medium pacers the strike rate matters more than an healthy average because you won't expect most of pacers bowling for extended spell like spinners. In case of all the Indian pacers from Kapil to Srinath to Zaheer to Ishant the SR is upwards of 60 which means it would be more than 10 overs before they may strike ! Now compare with most of bowlers of SA, AUS or Eng bowlers it is around 50-60. Good example is Brett lee whose bowling avg is around 30 something and his SR is in lower 50s another one is James Anderson whose SR is pretty good even though his bowl avg ~ 30

[jairamesh]

For Fast or Medium pacers the strike rate matters more than an healthy average because you won't expect most of pacers bowling for extended spell like spinners. In case of all the Indian pacers from Kapil to Srinath to Zaheer to Ishant the SR is upwards of 60 which means it would be more than 10 overs before they may strike ! Now compare with most of bowlers of SA, AUS or Eng bowlers it is around 50-60. Good example is Brett lee whose bowling avg is around 30 something and his SR is in lower 50s another one is James Anderson whose SR is pretty good even though his bowl avg ~ 30

Pitches play a big part in low (grass and bounce) and high strike rates (flat pitches). Having a high average but lower comparative strike rate means their economy rate is poor. Though economy rate does not matter too much to an extent.

[jairamesh]

But Mcgrath was genuine on those days. I saw his footage before that around 1994 Ashes in England he was certainly quick bowling easily over 140K. Genuine quick is who can bowl 140 and McGrath and Even Damien Flameing were able to do that. Even in WC 1999, McGrath was clocked 140K. We are not talking about 150-160K type of pace. There are only 3-4 bowlers in the history of cricket who could touch those speeds. Any bowler who can bowl 135k or more consistently and has other skills to go with it in test matches is certainly quick and can be useful, but less than that one needs to have extra ordinary skills to make a mark.

Agree with this, the emphasis should be to have bowlers who average 140k. If drastic actions are required, e.g. selecting minimum 2 fast bowlers who are capable of bowling a minimum above 140k then so be it, especially for Tests and domestic 4 day games (Ranji, Duleep, Irani). Now that is a quota system I am more than happy to endorse.:two_thumbs_up: Though Venky:hehe: will strongly object to it as violation of the Trundler Rights.

[MCcricket]

so how long would you give somebody like Ishant sharma who bowls usually in the 130-140 zone in most games i have seen. Ie is a proper fast bowling even though not express pace like a Brett Lee or Actor. 41 tests averaging 36 with the ball and a lot more against established test nations. Now he is 23 at this moment and have played a lot more test cricket than anybody i can think of in international cricket at that age and if a fast bowler. How long will you give a person like Ishant to get his act together and starting putting in good performances in all formats? I ask cause I want to know your parameter for reward.

Simple Zak, Ishant, Umesh , Varun ,ARE LISTED IN TERMS OF THE PECKING ORDER AS THE ABILITY OF BEING STRIKE BOWLERS, no ones place is guaranteed, if Ishant doesn't perform and he has strong competetion is the squad for places for strike bowlers , not trundlers, we can choose the best,this is possible if we choose the right bowlers as replacements, give em chances and make them compete for places.Gony, Dinda,Shami Ahmed, Nechim Ahmed, Rahul Shukla,Anwar Ahmed,Sudeep Tyagi,VRV Singh,these guys when fit and in form should be in the frame as they can bowl fast mediumish, have the potential to take wickets in test's at lower strike rate also some can bowl fast,same if Sreesanth wants to make a comeback, the problem is with selectors not laying a clear requirements and getting trundlers in test squad who are useless.It is like taking a slogger as a replacement for a test opener.

[express bowling]

Lots of blah blah ...no real speed numbers. I am betting he wasn't much faster than VK/Mithun types. Mid 130s for most part and he did great on the pattas.

How would you get speed numbers when there were no speed guns in regular use ? :giggle: We have to depend on the feedback from batsmen who played him and what he looked visually. Batsmen generally called him lively but not genuinely quick during the first 6 or 7 yrs of his career. Kapil was definitely not a trundler. Also, I would not classify VK and Mithun in the same category pacewise. VK puts in a lot of effort but does not have the ability to bowl even fast-medium. I don't disllike his attitude, On the other hand, Mithun can easily bowl fast-medium and i have occasionally seen him bowl fast spells but he chooses to be a trundler these days.

[G_B_]

Simple Zak' date=' Ishant, Umesh , Varun ,ARE LISTED IN TERMS OF THE PECKING ORDER AS THE ABILITY OF BEING STRIKE BOWLERS, no ones place is guaranteed, if Ishant doesn't perform and he has strong competetion is the squad for places for strike bowlers , not trundlers, we can choose the best,this is possible if we choose the right bowlers as replacements, give em chances and make them compete for places.Gony, Dinda,Shami Ahmed, Nechim Ahmed, Rahul Shukla,Anwar Ahmed,Sudeep Tyagi,VRV Singh,these guys when fit and in form should be in the frame as they can bowl fast mediumish, have the potential to take wickets in test's at lower strike rate also some can bowl fast,same if Sreesanth wants to make a comeback, the problem is with selectors not laying a clear requirements and getting trundlers in test squad who are useless.It is like taking a slogger as a replacement for a test opener.[/quote'] fair point