If there was a general election tommorow, who would you vote for?

[The Outsider]

One could create literal translations and throw tantrums on those, just like Hindu Nationalist. You should have a problem with Hindustan itself.

I wasn't the one who created a literal translation - it was Modi. Your question should be addressed to him in that case as to what he thinks about the word Hindustan.

Is Savarkar's ghost coming back in 2014 ? Tell us what the big problem is with whatever communal definitions the respective CMs have put forward, irrespective of their individual interpretations.

The first problem is they are different. Can one not expect two CMs from the same party to have the same or similar definition of the ideology they swear by. Modi's definition is not even a definition, it's as you said a literal translation. Parrikar's definition is stupid because it doesn't make sense to talk about a Hindu culture. Talk about Goan culture, Punjabi culture, even take their common points and call it an Indian culture but these cultures are driven from a lot more than the Hindu religion. It is communal because he goes on to brand Christians as Hindus. Zabardasti hai kya koi, bologe sab Hindu hain and I should accept it?

[diga]

I wasn't the one who created a literal translation - it was Modi. Your question should be addressed to him in that case as to what he thinks about the word Hindustan. The first problem is they are different. Can one not expect two CMs from the same party to have the same or similar definition of the ideology they swear by.

So you want them to be some puppets with a ventriloquist muttering their lines?

Modi's definition is not even a definition, it's as you said a literal translation. Parrikar's definition is stupid because it doesn't make sense to talk about a Hindu culture. Talk about Goan culture, Punjabi culture, even take their common points and call it an Indian culture but these cultures are driven from a lot more than the Hindu religion. It is communal because he goes on to brand Christians as Hindus. Zabardasti hai kya koi, bologe sab Hindu hain and I should accept it?

nobody is asking you to agree with them.. its just their respective definations & their opinion.

[The Outsider]

You have an idea I guess. 1. If he'd have said western culture instead of Christian culture, that could have had unintended connotations as western culture means liberalism at various place, so he could unintentionally have suggested that Indian culture is conservative. 2. If he had said Portuguese culture, that would have sounded lame - well the Goans are Indians they are supposed to be more culturally indian than portugease. 3. Like I said, culture includes food, values, festivals, attire etc. What if he thought he would be more specific by mentioning Hindu culture because 15% of India eats halal, allows multiple wives, animal sacrifices on festivals, has hijab as main attire for women. Now don't say some Hindus practice animal sacrifice too as its a tiny percentage.

Why couldn't he simply say Indian culture? Or are you saying that Mughlai food was introduced by Hindus and not Muslims, or Muslims did not have any role in the development of Urdu, or Muslims did not have a role in Ghazals and Qawwalis? Or are these things not part of the Indian culture?

[The Outsider]

So you want them to be some puppets with a ventriloquist muttering their lines?

No, they can by all means have different opinions. But is too much to expect them to have a similar definition of one of the core ideologies of their party?

nobody is asking you to agree with them.. its just their respective definations & their opinion.

Well, I am calling his definition stupid and communal. So there it's done.

[randomGuy]

What? - like Goan Chritians culture is similar to Indian culture rather than western culture or portugease culture ? I wanna understand what exactly would you have said.

[The Outsider]

Or they see him as the lesser of the evils after having to deal with daily personal and national problems. The secular thugs you support have to go digging 7 years to throw dirt on him while the central govt arm twists the CBI so that your secular state govt can have Raja Bhaiya back in cabinet.

Modi is evil! :omg: Even a lesser one, but at least that's a start.

Let me think, terrorist killed in encounter vs murderer who killed DSP cleared by central govt ? Hmmm, I would be inclined to come out in support of terrorists if I were a Congressi to guard my vote bank. Oddly, the DSP was also a minority, but that's ok I guess.

Even if one were to take the word of the Gujarat government that Sohrabuddin was a terrorist or Ishrat Jahan was one and it's perfectly fine to execute them in an extrajudicial manner what about Kaiserbi? Was she a terrorist too? Or collateral damage?

Did I talk about the better roads and consistent power supply in fascist Gujarat that the educated class prefers ? Or is that the sole right of seculars living in America ?

No no, you can certainly be happy with the lesser of your two evils. But don't question my right to look at things from my perspective. Modi sahab se keh kar encounter mat karwa dena. Biwi bacche waala aadmi hoon mai baap.

[The Outsider]

What? - like Goan Chritians culture is similar to Indian culture rather than western culture or portugease culture ? I wanna understand what exactly would you have said.

How about something like "I don't believe in Hindu Nationalism. Nationalism for me is devotion to India, whose culture has been built and is being built by contributions from various communities and religions including Goan Christians"

[Clarke]

Modi is evil! :omg: Even a lesser one, but at least that's a start.

Hell yeah, twice voted against him. But I have to live here, I can't afford to be stuck in a time warp.

Even if one were to take the word of the Gujarat government that Sohrabuddin was a terrorist or Ishrat Jahan was one and it's perfectly fine to execute them in an extrajudicial manner what about Kaiserbi? Was she a terrorist too? Or collateral damage?

Stop this idealistic garbage. Your secular politicians are doing the same to this day and periodically dig out the same old nonsense. They have control of the CBI & can throw the guilty in jail. But you're giving them a free waiver despite worse record in many other day to day aspects.

No no, you can certainly be happy with the lesser of your two evils. But don't question my right to look at things from my perspective. Modi sahab se keh kar encounter mat karwa dena. Biwi bacche waala aadmi hoon mai baap.

Likewise, don't send any of your seculars to have me shot and for CBI to exonerate them. Neither should you throw the vast majority of educated class into the realm of fascism for their desire of better governance and quality of life.

[Clarke]

I wasn't the one who created a literal translation - it was Modi. Your question should be addressed to him in that case as to what he thinks about the word Hindustan.

Its you who has a problem with the interpretation and have raised it more than once. The reason is Modi, whatever the nonsensical explanation you put up.

The first problem is they are different. Can one not expect two CMs from the same party to have the same or similar definition of the ideology they swear by. Modi's definition is not even a definition, it's as you said a literal translation.

What's bloody wrong with either one or for having two interpretations or for that matter a literal translation ? Two people of the same party are supposed to toe the line all the time ?

Parrikar's definition is stupid because it doesn't make sense to talk about a Hindu culture. Talk about Goan culture, Punjabi culture, even take their common points and call it an Indian culture but these cultures are driven from a lot more than the Hindu religion. It is communal because he goes on to brand Christians as Hindus. Zabardasti hai kya koi, bologe sab Hindu hain and I should accept it?

In his head they are all hindus but he's not forcing them to worship in temples. He's taken the Hindustan word literally, which is what I was saying earlier. So lets all stop using the word Hindustan, it has communal translations.

[randomGuy]

How about something like "I don't believe in Hindu Nationalism. Nationalism for me is devotion to India' date=' whose culture has been built and is being built by contributions from various communities and religions including Goan Christians"[/quote'] :cantstop: He dint even mention nationalism let alone Hindu nationalism. He specifically likened Goan Christians' culture to A culture in comparison to B culture. What should 'A' and 'B' be is my question? Can I take it that you are not able to come up with what would you have said, to mean what he meant?

[The Outsider]

:cantstop: He dint even mention nationalism let alone Hindu nationalism. He specifically likened Goan Christians' culture to A culture in comparison to B culture. What should 'A' and 'B' be is my question? Can I take it that you are not able to come up with what would you have said, to mean what he meant?

Sure he didn't mention Nationalism and Hindu Nationalism. And if get a bit caustic, you'll start whining about me being a mod/admin.

You are seen as the moderate face of the Hindu right, but where do you see yourself ideologically? Are you a Hindu nationalist? A. I am a 100 percent democrat, democracy is at my heart. I am a perfect Hindu, but that is my personal faith, it has nothing to do with government. India is a Hindu nation in the cultural sense [Hindus are 82 percent of the population]. A Catholic in Goa is also Hindu culturally, because his practices don’t match with Catholics in Brazil [a former Portuguese outpost like Goa]; except in the religious aspect, a Goan Catholic’s way of thinking and practice matches a Hindu’s. So Hindu for me is not a religious term, it is cultural. I am not the Hindu nationalist as understood by some TV media – not one who will take out a sword and kill a Muslim. According to me that is not Hindu behavior at all. Hindus don’t attack anyone, they only do so for self-defense — that is our history. But in the right sense of the term, I am a Hindu nationalist.

[The Outsider]

Stop this idealistic garbage. Your secular politicians are doing the same to this day and periodically dig out the same old nonsense. They have control of the CBI & can throw the guilty in jail. But you're giving them a free waiver despite worse record in many other day to day aspects.

Demanding punishment for murder is idealistic garbage, now.

Likewise, don't send any of your seculars to have me shot and for CBI to exonerate them. Neither should you throw the vast majority of educated class into the realm of fascism for their desire of better governance and quality of life.

Yeah, as long as you are getting better roads to drive your cars on, why should you care about murders and illegal evictions?

Its you who has a problem with the interpretation and have raised it more than once. The reason is Modi, whatever the nonsensical explanation you put up.

What is the correct interpretation of what Modi said. Please educate me.

What's bloody wrong with either one or for having two interpretations or for that matter a literal translation ? Two people of the same party are supposed to toe the line all the time ?

This is not about some policy decision on which they can surely have different opinions. This is about interpretation of one of the core ideologies of their party. Surely, you can see the difference?

In his head they are all hindus but he's not forcing them to worship in temples. He's taken the Hindustan word literally, which is what I was saying earlier. So lets all stop using the word Hindustan, it has communal translations.

Yeah, and his head is fecked up. That is all I was saying.

[randomGuy]

Sure he didn't mention Nationalism and Hindu Nationalism. And if get a bit caustic' date=' you'll start whining about me being a mod/admin.[/quote'] Go full on caustic man, I don't mind. :) I read what DM had quoted(he hasn't quoted the reference to Hindu Nationalism) not the full article so my bad. Yet he specifically likened Goan Christians' culture to A culture in comparison to B culture. So again, what should 'A' and 'B' be as per you?

[The Outsider]

Go full on caustic man, I don't mind. :) I read what DM had quoted(he hasn't quoted the reference to Hindu Nationalism) not the full article so my bad. Yet he specifically likened Goan Christians' culture to A culture in comparison to B culture. So again, what should 'A' and 'B' be as per you?

Why would I even compare A to B? Look at the question he was asked:

You are seen as the moderate face of the Hindu right, but where do you see yourself ideologically? Are you a Hindu nationalist?

I would simply say, "I don't believe in Hindu Nationalism. Nationalism for me is devotion to India, whose culture has been built and is being built by contributions from various communities and religions including Goan Christians". Doesn't that answer the posed question?

[Clarke]

Demanding punishment for murder is idealistic garbage, now.

I repeat: Your secular politicians are doing the same to this day, besides destroying the economy. They have the tools at the center to absolve themselves and do so. You gladly will vote for them accepting their phony idea of secularism. Forgive the educated class for not accepting your point of view.

Yeah, as long as you are getting better roads to drive your cars on, why should you care about murders and illegal evictions?

I repeat again: Your secular politicians are doing the same to this day, besides destroying the economy. Our (the pick of the educated class) is accused of doing so and so umpteen years back and has some decent record of governance. Despite all your tools at the center, you haven't been able to throw him in jail. Between the two, we're picking the latter, you're picking the former.

What is the correct interpretation of what Modi said. Please educate me.

There is no different interpretation. You have a problem with whatever he says.

This is not about some policy decision on which they can surely have different opinions. This is about interpretation of one of the core ideologies of their party. Surely, you can see the difference? Yeah, and his head is fecked up. That is all I was saying.

The fact of the matter is its just another talking point. Far more important matters are ignored by the seculars and these trivial matters are highlighted because your netas are minority appeasing corrupt communal scum who would rather continue to see the hundreds of millions as ignorant idiots who can be fooled by their phony idea of secularism for the coming decades as well.

[The Outsider]

I repeat: Your secular politicians are doing the same to this day, besides destroying the economy. They have the tools at the center to absolve themselves and do so. You gladly will vote for them accepting their phony idea of secularism. Forgive the educated class for not accepting your point of view. I repeat again: Your secular politicians are doing the same to this day, besides destroying the economy. Our (the pick of the educated class) is accused of doing so and so umpteen years back and has some decent record of governance. Despite all your tools at the center, you haven't been able to throw him in jail. Between the two, we're picking the latter, you're picking the former.

What tools do Naveen Patnaik, Shivraj Chouhan, and Nitish Kumar(till recently) have at the center to absolve themselves? All have a well acknowledged record of development and no insinuations of murder and rioting against them.

There is no different interpretation. You have a problem with whatever he says.

Needless rhetoric instead of discussing the point.

The fact of the matter is its just another talking point. Far more important matters are ignored by the seculars and these trivial matters are highlighted because your netas are minority appeasing corrupt communal scum who would rather continue to see the hundreds of millions as ignorant idiots who can be fooled by their phony idea of secularism for the coming decades as well.

I am not the one who posted Parrikar's interview. I am also not the one who highlighted the Hindu Nationalist part in the interview. It was a Modi and BJP supporter. What I did was pointed out the, what IMO was fecked up logic used by Parrikar - you and other BJP supporters could have easily left it at that, but in your eagerness to defend anything coming from the BJP and Modi, regardless how senseless could not.

[Clarke]

What tools do Naveen Patnaik, Shivraj Chouhan, and Nitish Kumar(till recently) have at the center to absolve themselves? All have a well acknowledged record of development and no insinuations of murder and rioting against them.

None for now, I'm sure the seculars will dig up a lot if they are leading the opposition campaign. At the end of the day they're politicians who most likely have their own dirty laundry. Its plenty ****ing convenient from you here. Mention other names when cornered on what your secular scum has been doing to the country. I like this tactic, support Congressis on all their garbage policy be it minority appeasement, China encroachments, Pakistan killing our soldiers, wasteful gargantuan spending in election year and what not. Then throw in some red herrings when the facts are brought out. A Congressi masquerading as a neutral is what's to be read out loud.

Needless rhetoric instead of discussing the point.

There's nothing to discuss, whining about hindu nationalism is what Diggy Raja and guys like you are stuck with. The rest of the educated class moves forward.

I am not the one who posted Parrikar's interview. I am also not the one who highlighted the Hindu Nationalist part in the interview. It was a Modi and BJP supporter. What I did was pointed out the, what IMO was fecked up logic used by Parrikar - you and other BJP supporters could have easily left it at that, but in your eagerness to defend anything coming from the BJP and Modi, regardless how senseless could not.

What DM did was simply mention the difference on an empty talking point. You on the other hand found it as a BIG deal and a way to mock at two reasonable leaders. Think hard how you ended up completely opposite to the vast majority of the educated class of the country. The educated class didn't go fascist, you went Congressi (unless you always were one) to stand up against what they told you was fascism.

[The Outsider]

None for now, I'm sure the seculars will dig up a lot if they are leading the opposition campaign. At the end of the day they're politicians who most likely have their own dirty laundry.

These allegations against Modi and the Gujarat government did not pop up over the last 3 months since he was made the campaign chief. They've been around for years and we've been discussing them for years on ICF.

Its plenty ****ing convenient from you here. Mention other names when cornered on what your secular scum has been doing to the country. I like this tactic, support Congressis on all their garbage policy be it minority appeasement, China encroachments, Pakistan killing our soldiers, wasteful gargantuan spending in election year and what not. Then throw in some red herrings when the facts are brought out. A Congressi masquerading as a neutral is what's to be read out loud.

No, it's pretty fecking convenient for you to label anyone who questions or criticizes Modi as a fecking Congressi, despite the fact that the person explicitly denies being one and is on record stating that he is sick of the corruption that this Congress government has been a harbinger of over the last 4 years. You are bereft of ideas about how to discuss Modi with someone who says he would vote for the BJP under a Sushsma Swaraj leadership, so it's easy to brand him as a Congressi and then attack him with all the shortfalls of the Congress government. Support Congress on: 1. Minority appeasement: Can you refer me to a discussion where I've done that? 2. China encroachments: Can you refer me to a discussion where I've done that? My stance is clear - we don't have the economic, diplomatic, or military might to take on China so the best solution to their transgressions is codifying the LAC and not leave it in a state of abeyance for Aksai Chin, which if you read history was never part of India except on British maps. How is this stance dependent on Congress? 3. Pakistan killing our soldiers: I am ***** scared of the rabid dog in the neighborhood and want us to fence and tighten our borders, send covert operatives to take out key targets there, and apply diplomatic pressure rather than indulge in explicit fighting for the fear of the rabid dog using the nuclear option. How is this stance dependent on the Congress? 4. Wasteful expenditures: I don't see providing affordable food and fair prices for land as wasteful expenditure. How is this stance dependent on the Congress?

There's nothing to discuss, whining about hindu nationalism is what Diggy Raja and guys like you are stuck with. The rest of the educated class moves forward.

I don't think so. It was the rest of the educated class which initiated the discussion.

What DM did was simply mention the difference on an empty talking point. You on the other hand found it as a BIG deal and a way to mock at two reasonable leaders.

DM did not post the article, diga did. And what is wrong in mocking and laughing at some statements of politicians? Congress leaders are routinely made fun of on this forum and when I find it funny I join in as well. But try making fun of Modi on his chewtiyatic definition of Hindu Nationalism or his running away and crying in the Karan Thapar interview and you find yourself defending yourself against all kinds of attacks from the legion of Modi fanboyzz.

Think hard how you ended up completely opposite to the vast majority of the educated class of the country. The educated class didn't go fascist, you went Congressi (unless you always were one) to stand up against what they told you was fascism.

I don't have any issues or complex in adopting a contrary stance to the majority of the educated class. I don't solace myself in numbers, because I am not fighting an election, but I did not go Congressi. My pecking order for the upcoming elections is very clear and stated: 1. NDA without Modi as PM 2. UPA without Rahul as PM 3. UPA with Rahul as PM 4. Third Front or whatever Khichdi 5. NDA with Modi as PM So I would appreciate it if you could keep future discussions in the above realm till I make an explicit change in my stance, instead of conveniently lumping me with Congress when you are devoid of any points to advance a discussion. EDIT: The really funny part is that the only votes I've cast for Lok Sabha elections in my life have been for Vajpayee from the Lucknow seat and yet get branded as a Congressi.

[randomGuy]

^^ I disagree with you on 2 points - 1 example for both 1. Minority appeasement - you regard Diggi's atrocious comments as mere trolling. 2. When Pakistan kills our soldiers, there are be visible response from Indian side as well. Not a full scale war, but a tit-for-tat which should be endorsed by our leaders publicly. Discontinuing that Karan Thapar interview was his prerogative, pretty good move most would say. Why do you have a problem??

[The Outsider]

^^ I disagree with you on 2 points - 1 example for both 1. Minority appeasement - you regard Diggi's atrocious comments as mere trolling. 2. When Pakistan kills our soldiers, there are be visible response from Indian side as well. Not a full scale war, but a tit-for-tat which should be endorsed by our leaders publicly.

We can disagree on things, but how is it fair to brand someone a Congressi and attack him based on all of Congress' policies including Rajiv Gandhi and what not despite repeated proclamations that I don't support them?

Discontinuing that Karan Thapar interview was his prerogative, pretty good move most would say. Why do you have a problem??

I found it extremely funny that a national leader - Gujarat ka sher as proclaimed by many, would literally start crying and yelping "Dostana Dostana Karan bhai" during an interview. I am pretty sure if Rahul Gandhi had done something similar we would all be sharing a laugh about it, but because it was Modi and Modi cannot do any wrong in the eyes of his supporters one gets attacked at expressing one's sense of humor.