vipin Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 First' date=' Please prove that knowledge of Physics-Chemistry-Maths in a "subjective" format leads to better quality students. This subjective versus objective is just a two-edged sword. If you make one, it breaks the other. It's not even a solution.[/quote'] Please read the link I posed in the previous post where this aspect is very clearly elucidated. Every institution and every system in the world has good and bad aspects. However, we need to make the best we can of the available resources, skills and opportunities. That is what the discussion is about. It is not an ego war between sadists and sycophants on one hand and zealots on the other. Infact I would like to hear from you, the purported shortcomings of the system. And we will see which of them can actually be addressed and which ones are wishful thinking. I have read this blog extensively. Many of the professors at IIT have sacrificed more attractive and higher paying avenues to be in that job. It is natural that they will be passionate about these things. Infact, all citizens of this country are entitled to their opinion. If you and many other people on this forum who have nothing to do with this system could be so concerned about it, it is naive to think IIT Profs. won't be. It would be a sad day when these Prof.s also become indifferent to the problems of our country like the majority of the common people. If some people here are assuming a high moral ground just because they are not in India and and supposedly part of a superior system, which they think gives them a license to mindlessly criticize everything without providing a solution, they need to change their mindset and instead need to try and make a positive difference to their motherland. Otherwise, they have no business meddling in our affairs.
Number Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 (1) The JEE (as it was until now) is indeed a very good exam to select the kind of students who can use their intelligence and imagination to proactively solve problems. Those of you who have taken and cracked the JEE woukd agree with me that it is one of the best exams that can be used to test the ability of a person to apply concepts to various situations. This is very different from being able to acquire lots of knowledge through cramming and be able to do nothing with it (which is what the board exams promote). Infact, as I mentioned in another thread, the correlation between being a board topper and cracking the JEE is not very high because the two of them require absolutely different skills and preparation. (2) Those who are calling for international olympiads to be included for selection are probably living in a fancy world and have no grounding in the reality of the situation. The IIT-JEE is as close an examination as you have in India to an olympiad. Infact the olympiad participans and winners for India often go on to become JEE top rankers. On, the other hand you can't keep weightages for these olympiads because a poor student coming out of a backward village may never even have heard about it. The JEE is a one (or two) stop solution where everybody starts on an equal footing and has the chance to give their best. (3) In the west, an institute may be as good as the quality of its faculty, but in India its different. Here, an institute is as good as its students. What sort of faculty would you expect when you are going to pay them a starting salary of 35000/month. I myself had offers from 2 NITs to join as a faculty and would have liked to, but why should I when they are going to pay me half my current salary. (4) The IITs aleady have MCM (Merit cum means) scholarships, where the poorest students are highly subsidized. The fees is slowly calibrating itself upwards as some of you desire. Good post. :hatsoff:
Crookbond Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Please read the link I posed in the previous post where this aspect is very clearly elucidated. I have read the link and even interacted personally with many IIT professors. Lets cut the chase. Can you tell me specifically - "How does knowledge of PCM correlate to the fact that you should earn an engineering seat at an IIT?" If some people here are assuming a high moral ground just because they are not in India and and supposedly part of a superior system, which they think gives them a license to mindlessly criticize everything without providing a solution, they need to change their mindset and instead need to try and make a positive difference to their motherland. Otherwise, they have no business meddling in our affairs. Now, here comes the "cult" mentality I was referring to earlier. From national interests, to "our" affairs. Also, can you please enlighten me how did you come to conclusion that "I am not in India"? Also, what makes you say just because they aren't in India their criticism is unwarranted? In addition, is it their job to come to a solution? Can't the great IIT professors or the alumni find a solution since they are so brilliant? I will reply to your other points later but trust me you would want to a void the ad hominem route especially when it involves questioning loyalties to your alma mater.
chanakya Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I have read the link and even interacted personally with many IIT professors. Lets cut the chase. Can you tell me specifically - "How does knowledge of PCM correlate to the fact that you should earn an engineering seat at an IIT?" Try looking at the first ear syllabus :) Actually the better question should be how knowledge of history and civics earn an engineering seat at an IIT?
yoda Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I have read the link and even interacted personally with many IIT professors. Lets cut the chase. Can you tell me specifically - "How does knowledge of PCM correlate to the fact that you should earn an engineering seat at an IIT?" :omg:
vipin Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I have read the link and even interacted personally with many IIT professors. Lets cut the chase. Can you tell me specifically - "How does knowledge of PCM correlate to the fact that you should earn an engineering seat at an IIT?" Dictionary:- Engineering (noun) (1)The practical*application of science to commerce or industry (2) The discipline dealing with the art or science of applying scientific*knowledge to practical problems Basic science = Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics. Hence knowledge of the three courses is important. Besides if you look carefully the emphasis is on testing the 'analytical ability', which would help assess the candidate's ability to apply that knowledge. Lets get this straight. What according to you should be tested ? Language and Arts skills ? Now, here comes the "cult" mentality I was referring to earlier. From national interests, to "our" affairs. Our = National affairs. Also, can you please enlighten me how did you come to conclusion that "I am not in India"? Also, what makes you say just because they aren't in India their criticism is unwarranted? In addition, is it their job to come to a solution? I just said that all criticism is welcome. But criticism has a value only if it can help address the problem with some action.I have supported your criticism where I found it concurrent with my experience. But, I haven't found a clear implementable suggestion in your critique as yet. Can't the great IIT professors or the alumni find a solution since they are so brilliant? I am not for a change in the JEE as suggested by the MHRD, to be honest with you. But, before crying foul the IIT's (especially the faculty) should introspect whether they turn wolf on matters which they aren't directly affected by. You are contradicting yourself here. The links you and I provided each contain some implementable suggestions and solutions. However, I am still not clear what you argument is. Once you say that the IITs should lie down and accept whatever is imposed on them. Then you say that you do not support this imposition and want them to find the solution. And when you see this happening, you say that they ' they turn wolf on matters which they aren't directly affected by'. You are just trolling here.
adi B Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I have read the link and even interacted personally with many IIT professors. Lets cut the chase. Can you tell me specifically - "How does knowledge of PCM correlate to the fact that you should earn an engineering seat at an IIT?"
Crookbond Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Dictionary:- Engineering (noun) (1)The practical*application of science to commerce or industry (2) The discipline dealing with the art or science of applying scientific*knowledge to practical problems Basic science = Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics. Hence knowledge of the three courses is important. Besides if you look carefully the emphasis is on testing the 'analytical ability', which would help assess the candidate's ability to apply that knowledge. Lets get this straight. What according to you should be tested ? Language and Arts skills ? I will answer all your questions - one by one. Lets look at this. So, analytical ability in Physics and Chemistry is good indicator to judge whether a person would be Computer Scientist ? This is some Najafgarh Logic here. Now, I can tell you how "Language" and "Art" are better indicators to judge a Computer Scientist (note the term preceding the parenthesis) but that is if you're ready to listen and accommodate opinions. Heck - I can't name the IIT professor but one of the most renowned IIT professor has told me that for about 20 years that all IIT's across India used "Language" as THE most important parameter to judge candidature for a professor in the CS department. However, if you're an IIT fundamentalist I wouldn't even like to discuss further. I am not a fundamentalist - I can see good things at the IITs and not so good things & I shoot straight from the hip. I just said that all criticism is welcome. But criticism has a value only if it can help address the problem with some action.I have supported your criticism where I found it concurrent with my experience. But, I haven't found a clear implementable suggestion in your critique as yet. The first step to addressing the problem is to "accept that there's a problem". I don't see that happening here. You are contradicting yourself here. The links you and I provided each contain some implementable suggestions and solutions. However, I am still not clear what you argument is. Once you say that the IITs should lie down and accept whatever is imposed on them. Then you say that you do not support this imposition and want them to find the solution. And when you see this happening, you say that they ' they turn wolf on matters which they aren't directly affected by'. You are just trolling here. Reading comprehension is definitely not tested by an IIT'ian. :giggle: Let me elucidate my argument. The changes proposed by government aren't good and I don't agree to them. But that said, IIT professor's aren't saints and have done "zilch" to improve the quality & experience of the JEE exam unless arm twisted by external factors. So, when the esteemed IIT alumni cry on this matter let the alumni also file cases in courts for other stupid happenings at IIT. Why don't they? Opus Dei.
vipin Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I will answer all your questions - one by one. Lets look at this. So, analytical ability in Physics and Chemistry is good indicator to judge whether a person would be Computer Scientist ? This is some Najafgarh Logic here. Now, I can tell you how "Language" and "Art" are better indicators to judge a Computer Scientist (note the term preceding the parenthesis) but that is if you're ready to listen and accommodate opinions. Heck - I can't name the IIT professor but one of the most renowned IIT professor has told me that for about 20 years that all IIT's across India used "Language" as THE most important parameter to judge candidature for a professor in the CS department. However, if you're an IIT fundamentalist I wouldn't even like to discuss further. I am not a fundamentalist - I can see good things at the IITs and not so good things & I shoot straight from the hip. (1) You are the Computer Science expert, not me. So, I shall leave it to you to analyze. Still I am not very sure how spoken language skills would help with designing algorithms. It could possibly help with grasping new computer language syntaxes but that's not the most difficult part of CS. (2) If there are universities around that accept students with no Maths or Science background to Computer Science courses, I don't know of them. Possibly my ignorance. But expecting the JEE to implement such radical changes is a bit over the top when we are struggling to survive. Still if we have a good argument for it, I shall forward it to the admission committees. (3) In carefully crafting that statement you have yourself accepted that mathematics would be an integral requirement for algorithms, databases, programming and what not. (4)If you want to venture out into the hardware part of CS, you would require Physics and Chemistry. The first step to addressing the problem is to "accept that there's a problem". I don't see that happening here. Of course, all of us accept there is a problem or atleast a situation. We haven't been type*****ing here for nothing. Let me elucidate my argument. The changes proposed by government aren't good and I don't agree to them. OK But that said, IIT professor's aren't saints and have done "zilch" to improve the quality & experience of the JEE exam unless arm twisted by external factors. Nobody is a saint and there are all kinds of people everywhere (Prof or no Prof). Some people do give it their best shot within the limits imposed on them. May it be by means of preparing good questions for the exam itself or debating on the nature of exam that would help select the best students. Agreed there are many that don't give a **** about it, and the exam itself may have a lot of room for improvement. If you have a specific suggestion for improvement I am sure everybody would like to hear it. So, when the esteemed IIT alumni cry on this matter let the alumni also file cases in courts for other stupid happenings at IIT. Why don't they? Opus Dei. We do protest against 'OTHER' stupid happenings also but not legally because we have better control on those. When we were in college we protested against the then director, Damodar Acharya for a number of reasons and it even ended up with his car smashed upside down and his bungalow (unfortunately) gheraoed. Now, he has been indicted in a scam. Alumni suing the alma-mater would be awkward more than anything else. There are many other ways of putting pressure there. Not with the government. Unfortunately, what I see you doing here is making sweeping negative generalizations about everybody - Professors, goverment, alumni et al. or atleast having a very pessimistic perspective. If that helps you feel better, well and good. But I find this sort of a mindset stifling. But thats just me. I don't think this is something we can settle through argument.
Crookbond Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 (1) You are the Computer Science expert, not me. So, I shall leave it to you to analyze. Still I am not very sure how spoken language skills would help with designing algorithms. It could possibly help with grasping new computer language syntaxes but that's not the most difficult part of CS. Programming is an integral job of most CS scientists. You got it right there. Btw, "arts" signifies creativity, innovation which helps you design algorithms. (2) If there are universities around that accept language students to Computer Science courses, I don't know of them. Possibly my ignorance. But expecting the JEE to implement such radical changes is a bit over the top when we are struggling to survive. Still if we have a good argument for it, I shall forward it to the admission committees. First, Thanda Le. :cheers: Second, I never said - "Admit Language students to CS courses". I meant "Language" is an important parameter. However, let me add that it isn't possible for a country like India. You know the reason why. I was just merely pointing out that PCM aren't good indicators. (3) In carefully crafting that statement you have yourself accepted that mathematics would be an integral requirement for algorithms, databases, programming and what not. Yes - an understanding of mathematics does help. It's not difficult to see why. (4)If you want to venture out into the hardware part of CS, you would require Physics and Chemistry. This is the most ridiculous argument I have heard on this thread. Of course, all of us accept there is a problem or atleast a situation. We haven't been type*****ing here for nothing. It wasn't apparent to me. Apologies. We do protest against 'OTHER' stupid happenings also but not legally because we have better control on those. When we were in college we protested against the then director, Damodar Acharya for a number of reasons and it even ended up with his car smashed upside down and his bungalow (unfortunately) gheraoed. Now, he has been indicted in a scam. Alumni suing the alma-mater would be awkward more than anything else. There are many other ways of putting pressure there. Not with the government. Awkward or not - righteous people stand up for the right things. No prizes for guessing why the alumni go into selective amnesia mode. Unfortunately, what I see you doing here is making sweeping negative generalizations about everybody - Professors, goverment, alumni et al. If that helps you feel better, well and good. But I find this sort of a mindset stifling. But thats just me. I don't think this is something we can settle through argument. Ad Hominem? Unfortunately, what I see you doing here is buttress my earlier point about preserving the 'cult'. But I find this sort of a mindset stifling. But thats just me. I don't think this is something we can settle through argument.
vipin Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Ad Hominem? Unfortunately, what I see you doing here is buttress my earlier point about preserving the 'cult'. But I find this sort of a mindset stifling. But thats just me. I don't think this is something we can settle through argument. Ok so we agree we have nothing to argue over here. And we do seem to agree on most of the points here except one. I want solutions and you are not willing to give any. And no, thats no Ad Hominem. I am not attacking you, thats just the way I see it.
vipin Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 About Physics and Chemistry for Hardware - Microelectronics Nanoelectronics Material Science DNA computing .. are some examples. If you are trying to research on and improve hardware technology you need to know these. If you are just in maintainence, maybe not.
Crookbond Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 About Physics and Chemistry for Hardware - Microelectronics Nanoelectronics Material Science DNA computing .. are some examples. If you are trying to research on and improve hardware technology you need to know these. If you are just in maintainence, maybe not.
Crookbond Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Ok so we agree we have nothing to argue over here. And we do seem to agree on most of the points here except one. I want solutions and you are not willing to give any. And no' date=' thats no Ad Hominem. I am not attacking you, thats just the way I see it.[/quote'] Here's one solution I read on Dheeraj Sanghi's blog. http://dsanghi.blogspot.in/2011/07/iiit-delhi-innovative-admission-process.html
The Outsider Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Well' date=' we should gradually increase the number as the population grows and not wait for one fine day and boom go crazy.[/quote'] Well the population has grown now, India is at it's industrial peak, and the level of education at all levels is at an all time high. There is no way 2000 or so elite engineers can serve the needs of the country specially when a significant number of them go abroad for further studies or enter management through IIMs immediately after graduating. If IITs don't fill in the gap, then what is your solution?
punjabi_khota Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Here's one solution I read on Dheeraj Sanghi's blog. http://dsanghi.blogspot.in/2011/07/iiit-delhi-innovative-admission-process.html Wow, an aptitude test, what a revolutionary idea. It is not that GRE,SAT,CAT, isn't doing that already. How did they come up with such mind boggling new-age horse manure. :hysterical:
Crookbond Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Wow, an aptitude test, what a revolutionary idea. It is not that GRE,SAT,CAT, isn't doing that already. How did they come up with such mind boggling new-age horse manure. :hysterical: :facepalm: Just like the old-age elephant manure of equating the knowledge and applicability of Physics & Chemistry equations to a better CS/IT engineer. :hehe: Also, in the context of India Prof. Sanghi is spot on - It's indeed a "revolutionary idea". Also, at putting SAT in the same bracket at CAT and GRE (which are used for different purposes). In addition, before likening it any other admission test check it's format. Therefore, it's not what the admission test is called but what it contains that matters.
Vijay.Sharma Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Would these kids get into IITs? http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/karnataka/article3524832.ece?homepage=true
vvvslaxman Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iitdelhi-too-decides-to-hold-own-entrance/965036/ IIT-Delhi too decides to hold own entrance
akshayxyz Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Every Institute/department should be allowed to have its own parameter of selection - Plain and simple. If there is common aptitude test, and someone other institute wants to use it as a criteria - is fine, but every institute should be allowed to add its own level of filtering - be it based on 12th marks, olympiad kind of achievements, personal interview, or even horoscope. By giving them freedom of choice of values/system - you are facilitating creativity/evolution. Govt should come into picture, only if there are some unfair practices or fundamental violations of constitution/rights, discrimination etc. And better focus on education/system at grassroot levels. No one tells MIT/Hvd/....or even 50th ranked US univ what parameters/weight-age to pick for selection. Govt of USA does not intervene and name 20 random institutes as MIT-NY, MIT Texas, MIT-jharkhand, MIT-bokaro. Govt should focus on improving infrastructure and policies/schemes/grants etc to attract scholars to stay back for research and teaching - regardless of the names. It was already a retarded move to do bulk name changes to IITs, just to encash on the brand name that IITs have created in international market..... naam badalney se kuchh nahi badlega.. And whoever was saying IIT professors are not doing anything - abey paise tou do, facility tou do, freedom tou do... how many of the top quality researchers come back to teach? Why? And even then if you want to compare - compare them with professors of other Indian institutes and not some MIT/Stan prof sitting on a grant of million dollars.
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