Ultimate_Game Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 You're right in your assessment but I'm afraid you can't correlate results to what coaches do in back there. We have no knowledge to tell he's not helping them. Hence' date=' an objective statement from my side would be for him to finish his term and then review..[/quote'] Let me rephrase. I think of a coach more like a "man manager" who has a handle on the team and sort of manages the team dynamics. The main reason I am pissed off with Fletcher is that all this talk of rift and team divides between Sehwag, Gambhir & Dhoni started off and Fletcher didn't do anything about it. Did we see anything like that under Kirsten? I don't expect a coach/manager to teach someone like Tendulkar how to bat, Dhoni how to keep or Zaheer how to bowl, but I do expect the coach to enable the team to be in the position to give off their best. The same thing happened under Chappell where we had different camps and look how we fared under him. I fear the same is happening now and to me it looks either Fletcher doesn't care, or he's not trusted by players for him to resolve these sort of issues. Intl sports is cut-throat business and you have to be at your best to succeed and you can't do that when the team is busy sniping at each other with the coach sitting on the sidelines turning a blind eye to the goings on or incompetent to help out. I am sure if Kirsten had been around he would have nipped these issues in the bud.
Crookbond Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Let me rephrase. I think of a coach more like a "man manager" who has a handle on the team and sort of manages the team dynamics. The main reason I am pissed off with Fletcher is that all this talk of rift and team divides between Sehwag' date= Gambhir & Dhoni started off and Fletcher didn't do anything about it. Did we see anything like that under Kirsten? I think we did - T20 WC 2009 England. :winky:
koksmayu Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 forget him for everyone country comes first forget him for everyone country comes first south africa wont leave him for next atleast 2 world cups because they also used all good contenders from their country no good one left
Ultimate_Game Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 I think we did - T20 WC 2009 England. :winky: Nope, that time it was more like Indian team against media. Dhoni was pissed off with the media and they had the whole team for a media conference. I don't recall players sniping at each other the way they are right now with Kirsten as the coach.
Cricket Tragic Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 You're right in your assessment but I'm afraid you can't correlate results to what coaches do in back there. We have no knowledge to tell he's not helping them. Hence' date= an objective statement from my side would be for him to finish his term and then review.. Exactly the problem when rating coaches. With captains, you see them make decisions on the field, actually playing themselves and making calls on selection. Wrt to the Sehwag-Dhoni rift, the rumours started when Kirsten was the coach. We were winning and so it didn't become a long-standing talking point. If we had won in Aus/Eng, you can bet that no one would be talking about it.
Crookbond Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Exactly the problem when rating coaches. With captains, you see them make decisions on the field, actually playing themselves and making calls on selection. Wrt to the Sehwag-Dhoni rift, the rumours started when Kirsten was the coach. We were winning and so it didn't become a long-standing talking point. If we had won in Aus/Eng, you can bet that no one would be talking about it. Which is exactly why I want him to complete his 2-year term and if indeed there's no use we can decide not to renew. The players will definitely have more say in this for sure.
Crookbond Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Nope' date=' that time it was more like Indian team against media. Dhoni was pissed off with the media and they had the whole team for a media conference. I don't recall players sniping at each other the way they are right now with Kirsten as the coach.[/quote'] U_G, It was the same talk Sehwag-Dhoni rift. Sehwag even resigned from vice-captaincy. The current one is also a little exaggerated in my books.
Ultimate_Game Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 U_G' date=' It was the same talk Sehwag-Dhoni rift. Sehwag even resigned from vice-captaincy. The current one is also a little exaggerated in my books.[/quote'] And did you see the difference then and now? This time round the players taking shots at each other in the media while in 2009 it was a speculation. How can a team be expected to perform optimally when the players are busy taking shots at each other?
Crookbond Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 And did you see the difference then and now? This time round the players taking shots at each other in the media while in 2009 it was a speculation. How can a team be expected to perform optimally when the players are busy taking shots at each other? UG - Still reading too much into both these incidents. Just leave it and let Fletcher complete his term. I would still blame the players. The best part is that these same very players are now in one team and hope they perform well. Lets wait and watch as of now. All not lost as yet.
Ultimate_Game Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 UG - Still reading too much into both these incidents. Just leave it and let Fletcher complete his term. I would still blame the players. The best part is that these same very players are now in one team and hope they perform well. Lets wait and watch as of now. All not lost as yet. Is there something more they can lose after going 0-8 :dontknow:
Trundler27 Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 It's hard to coach the big egos that we currently have in the team. Dhoni and sehwag lead the list with most others to follow. So no one can be expected to have a huge impact from a coaching perspective. Our earlier and recent successes have largely been due to inspired leadership (gangu and dhoni) and strong will to succeed for all 11 players.
Ultimate_Game Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 It's hard to coach the big egos that we currently have in the team. Dhoni and sehwag lead the list with most others to follow. So no one can be expected to have a huge impact from a coaching perspective. Our earlier and recent successes have largely been due to inspired leadership (gangu and dhoni) and strong will to succeed for all 11 players. And that's the key role of a good coach/manager, i.e. using his man management skills to good use to smoothen these sort of goings on around bruised egos. You don't really expect a "coach" to teach Sehwag how to play a cover drive or to teach Zaheer how to bowl a yorker. At intl level you can't teach players technical things. In cricket the term "coach" is a misnomer and the term "performance manager" or just "manager" is more apt. A coach is there to bring the team together, to bring new ideas to the table, to be someone against whom players can bounce their ideas or convey their concerns/anxieties to, to be a helping hand and someone whom players can trust. I am sorry but Fletcher is not who can be any of those things IMO.
Crookbond Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 Is there something more they can lose after going 0-8 :dontknow: For that not the coach but first I will ask the "seniors" to make way for the Rahane's, Pujara's etc. You very well know that. If that doesn't change and coach changes there's no way to say we have moved forward. Fletcher doesn't have much control. Check the interview he gave on the first day itself and how Srinivasan gives him the iron rod. :headshake:
1983-2011 Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 we should replace Fletcher with Tony Greig and just play Sri Lanka all year round
vvvslaxman Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Are you guys serious? You are giving benefit of doubt to a coach that couldn't inspire a half decent side (infact no.1 side when he took over) to draw let alone humiliatingly lose? Couldn't he do anything about coming up with decent strategy in England where he spent best part of his life? If everything is upto players why do you need coach for? I have never seen him giving any reasons or explanations about why we fail,never seen him promising improvements. Only time i have seen him open his mouth was when he decided to justify abandoned chase in WI. He is virtually a huge paper weight. Get rid of him for good. Pretty much all english fans laughed at the choice of BCCI when fletcher was selected. They are vindicated.
Crookbond Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 VVS - I hope you understand that the only people he owes a direct explanation is to the BCCI bosses. Is there a way for you to confirm that hasn't been done or not satisfactory?
vvvslaxman Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 VVS - I hope you understand that the only people he owes a direct explanation is to the BCCI bosses. Is there a way for you to confirm that hasn't been done or not satisfactory? No. he owes explanation to fans more than BCCI. If i remember right BCCI categorically stated there is no need of analysis. They don't care if coach flunks or not or India fails or not.
maniac Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Gary Kirsten is over-rated....His contribution to India's rise too....He is probably the luckiest coach to be in the right place at the right time....Infact I would rank the contribution of Venkyn Prasad and Robin Singh to the Indian team more than most foregin coaches we've had with the exception of John Wright. I would take Andy Flower over Kirsten as a coach any day.... Just like Kirsten did not teach the likes of SRT,VVS,Dravid etc to bat I am pretty sure he did not teach Steyn,Morkel and Philander to bowl
Ultimate_Game Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Gary Kirsten is over-rated....His contribution to India's rise too....He is probably the luckiest coach to be in the right place at the right time....Infact I would rank the contribution of Venkyn Prasad and Robin Singh to the Indian team more than most foregin coaches we've had with the exception of John Wright. I would take Andy Flower over Kirsten as a coach any day.... Just like Kirsten did not teach the likes of SRT,VVS,Dravid etc to bat I am pretty sure he did not teach Steyn,Morkel and Philander to bowl So you expect a coach to teach batting and bowling to intl players now :facepalm: Role of the coach is not teaching technical skills at intl level but what I've mentioned in earlier posts above, especially posts #21 and #32 in the thread above.
vvvslaxman Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Gary Kirsten is over-rated....His contribution to India's rise too....He is probably the luckiest coach to be in the right place at the right time....Infact I would rank the contribution of Venkyn Prasad and Robin Singh to the Indian team more than most foregin coaches we've had with the exception of John Wright. I would take Andy Flower over Kirsten as a coach any day.... Just like Kirsten did not teach the likes of SRT,VVS,Dravid etc to bat I am pretty sure he did not teach Steyn,Morkel and Philander to bowl Robin singh and VEnky prasad.. i stopped reading there :hysterical:
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