Olympics nothing less than a war for China

[Lurker]

In 2008 GBR won 19, even in 2000 they were 11. So, norm 6-8 was probably earlier. They have focused on cycling and T&F. Hear about how Mo Farah prepared for 10000m . He trained in US, no national enterprise interest there.

Yes I am talking of 2000 onwards. The result(s) has to do atleast partially thanks to investment from National Lottery into England's Olympic endeavors. You can check some good online articles from BBC, Guardian etc...prominent English media.

With no sporting culture, how do you explain the rise in Olympic performance of Chinese? State-run agenies or hard-work?h

I say a mix of both. With state run agencies you can pick young kids for gymnastics, but how do you explain growth in say beach volleyball? China dominates certain sports, like no nation does. Diving for example. They not only win 8 of 8 golds, they even win all the silvers too! You have got to be incredibly harsh if you think the winners of these gold medals love their game any less than say Abhinav Bindra.

[Lurker]

Lurker Do you trust nytimes, guardian etc? I sincerely hope you do http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/20/world/asia/20iht-20olympics.13846967.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1 Read the nytimes article Some highlights

Course I do Triam. And I think it would be fool hardy to think all is well with China. Their girl gymnasts, for example, have always seemed underage, and their weightlifters always doped. Thats one side of the story though. The other side is complete dominance in sports like badminton which you can simply not force a child to grow into, like you would say in gymnastic. Or table tennis. Point being if there are enough points to castigate China, there are more than enough points to respect/learn and appreciate their achievements too. It is unflattering to see Indians taking potshots at China simply, in my opinion, to cover our deficiencies.

[suraj]

Course I do Triam. And I think it would be fool hardy to think all is well with China. Their girl gymnasts, for example, have always seemed underage, and their weightlifters always doped. Thats one side of the story though. The other side is complete dominance in sports like badminton which you can simply not force a child to grow into, like you would say in gymnastic. Or table tennis. Point being if there are enough points to castigate China, there are more than enough points to respect/learn and appreciate their achievements too. It is unflattering to see Indians taking potshots at China simply, in my opinion, to cover our deficiencies.

Yeah- I was like Wtf!!! Same thing in discus throw- they certainly take something!!!

[triam]

Course I do Triam. And I think it would be fool hardy to think all is well with China. Their girl gymnasts, for example, have always seemed underage, and their weightlifters always doped. Thats one side of the story though. The other side is complete dominance in sports like badminton which you can simply not force a child to grow into, like you would say in gymnastic. Or table tennis. Point being if there are enough points to castigate China, there are more than enough points to respect/learn and appreciate their achievements too. It is unflattering to see Indians taking potshots at China simply, in my opinion, to cover our deficiencies.

Thats the sport I played, agreed that you need a lot of talent for badminton. But what do you think the reason for that is Lurker? As an aside the reality is this, even in the USA average standard of indian badminton players is higher than Chinese by a large extent.

[triam]

exactly my point...without a burning desire you cant make a olympic champion... by your logic...say a swimmer is chosen for her physical attributes and she is not at all interested..so the chineese beat her , force her to swim day in day out..she is not interested but going through motions...even then the chineese pay her and make her sweat thinking that she will win a gold...if you have trained for india..can you say a person can train without interest... what most probably happens is these chineese kids have a dream for olympics...just like indians kids have for cricket..they join a academy..are paid and fed well but they lead a life of extreme hardwork and discipline...those who cant take it..leave it and those who do..stay there and compete....why is this so hard to believe for you guys? yes these academies might have draconian rules...so what...if you are ready to accept it you are part of it..otherwise go and pursue some other goals... regarding being chosen on body shapes and sizes...that could very well be the initial selection..where at that young age among the applicants only those meeting the physical parameters are chosen...not that random people are picked and forced to give these tests and then forced to participate... china is far from a dictator country..it is a figment of imagination that chineese people lead a life of oppression...their political freedom is curbed..but the state doesnt interefere in bars clubd or what women wear or should wear..

Again dreams at 3 years old??? Let me ask you a question would you train like that? or send your kid to a training program like that?

[straighttalk]

Again dreams at 3 years old??? Let me ask you a question would you train like that? or send your kid to a training program like that?

that three year old is not a hard and fast rule..those kids are six year olds...someone in this thread said that they were three..but they looked more like five or six; even in the NYT article..it says kids as young as six...gymnastics training starts early..most kids start playing at 6 or 8...saina started at 8..so ya you might have a interest... the entire criticism will be valid only if an trainee is forced against his or her wish to train that hard and does not have the option to quit.. if she is doing it for money or is forced to train hard by her coach inspite of injury..then those are personal issue and an individual problem..it would be wrong to blame the entire system for that... I am not saying that this system is the best and is above criticism but the fact is it produces results and I admit it might not be a holistic development of athletic ability. However, the words used in this thread were - barbaric, child abuse, torture....to me that is hyperbole or just plain sour grapes as our country lags in almost all respect compared to China. The criticism would have been more justified if aspects such as allround growth of children, injury statistics, drug use, etc were put into question but unfortunately it is being compared with prison camps, torture centers, ...I feel it is a much better way for poor kids to develop themselves rather than child labor. I am pretty sure most of these sports school children come from a poor family and are lured by money...whether that is ethical or not is questionable but they are definitely not forced or kidnapped.

[anish233]

^ the question should rather be. Do you trust the American Media, and I dont know about ya'll but I certainly dont. The fact remains that China is topping in gold medals, while India doesnt even have 1. Remember there isnt a huge difference in the population numbers.

[CSK Fan]

^ the question should rather be. Do you trust the American Media, and I dont know about ya'll but I certainly dont. The fact remains that China is topping in gold medals, while India doesnt even have 1. Remember there isnt a huge difference in the population numbers.

Nope, thats not the point at all. US also keeps topping the medals, BTW

[CSK Fan]

that three year old is not a hard and fast rule..those kids are six year olds...someone in this thread said that they were three..but they looked more like five or six; even in the NYT article..it says kids as young as six...gymnastics training starts early..most kids start playing at 6 or 8...saina started at 8..so ya you might have a interest... the entire criticism will be valid only if an trainee is forced against his or her wish to train that hard and does not have the option to quit.. if she is doing it for money or is forced to train hard by her coach inspite of injury..then those are personal issue and an individual problem..it would be wrong to blame the entire system for that... I am not saying that this system is the best and is above criticism but the fact is it produces results and I admit it might not be a holistic development of athletic ability. However, the words used in this thread were - barbaric, child abuse, torture....to me that is hyperbole or just plain sour grapes as our country lags in almost all respect compared to China. The criticism would have been more justified if aspects such as allround growth of children, injury statistics, drug use, etc were put into question but unfortunately it is being compared with prison camps, torture centers, ...I feel it is a much better way for poor kids to develop themselves rather than child labor. I am pretty sure most of these sports school children come from a poor family and are lured by money...whether that is ethical or not is questionable but they are definitely not forced or kidnapped.

You definitely know that how? You have been accusing the US media, but please quote your sources for the news. From forced 1 child norm to everything else, the chinese goverment jas always been known to force its citizens into most things. So I refuse to believe it will allow its citizens freedom iand choice in this matter

[ravishingravi]

^ the question should rather be. Do you trust the American Media, and I dont know about ya'll but I certainly dont. The fact remains that China is topping in gold medals, while India doesnt even have 1. Remember there isnt a huge difference in the population numbers.

I trust US media more than Chinese media which of course does not exist.

[vayuu1]

again 1% in usa control 90% of wealth..that is how it goes... but check the level of corruption. general infrastructure in china, the height of science and technology research there, compare cities like beijing sanghai etc to our best city mumbai... and you can see the difference between day and night.... and that has been achieved by the people and the communist party..even if some of their means might be questionable

I object mumbai is not our best city ,Bangalore ,Chandigarh,Delhi ,are much better than Mumbai.

[The Outsider]

Triam, It is not a either-or situation, is it now? I am willing to lean towards the fact that Indians are having a shot at Chinese mostly to hide our own inefficiencies as a sporting nation. We are happy to be a bunch of lazy ar lards who prefer the whole - Ah we treat our kids well, never mind the fact that most of our kids go un-nourished, un-educated and all the wrong uns in their life.

That's so far away from the point being made. If you go to the Other Sports section you'll find many people who are criticizing the Chinese and North Korean policies here (yes, there have been lunatics who have even praised North Korea in this thread), have given a generous dose of criticism to the Indian hockey team, the lack of support for athletes etc. etc. The topic of this thread is the Chinese treatment of young children in their quest for Olympic medals, not a glorification of the sporting structure of India. Why are you so shy to discuss the Chinese treatment of children to get medals without bringing in India's lack of a sporting pedigree?

What I find interesting, in this Olympiad and the previous one at Beijing, is how many countries (including Western countries) are now returning, or seriously contemplating, the role of Government run agencies in sporting success. East European countries have taken a big dive and they are looking into this. So is Germany who is trying to mimic East European methodology. Brits have already gained seriously from this, their success has been nothing sort of phenomenal, so have the French.

I am sure you have East European friends who have lived part of their lives under the Communist structure. Just ask them would they be willing to go back to their lives of those times in order to see an increase in the medal tally of their country at the Olympics? Such things don't happen in isolation. It's one thing for the government to provide the necessary infrastructure and coaching and a completely different thing for the government to start dictating the lives of children. The latter is the topic of discussion here, not the former.

Point being, countries are looking of creating a system with heavy emphasis on dedicated Olympic success. Somehow we seem to be the only bunch trying to take a stab at others, mostly by sitting on our bottoms.

My personal take - the over competitiveness in sports is a waste of time and human pursuit. Competitive and professional sports add nothing to the human civilization except give the general masses something to watch on TV while sipping beer or waste time in office the next morning talking about how some team would have beaten the other if a catch had not been dropped. Now, don't take it as I am advocating laziness or no physical activity. It's very important for each and every individual to be involved in semi rigorous physical activity to maintain good health, but beyond that if you can run 100 meters in 13 seconds or 9.58 seconds means nothing to the growth of the human civilization and society. Much rather spend that time learning science and take the human civilization further, quicker. Yeah, there are side benefits like us learning more about the human body from the experience of these great athletes. But I digress, coming back to the topic of China don't you find it strange that China has just developed a love for sports and sporting culture over the last 30 years or so? All of a sudden the average Chinese has become so enamored with sports that they have started topping Olympics medal tallies? And let's say I even buy that why has this love for sports been restricted to sports featuring only in Olympics? Why don't see any Chinese player in squash? Why don't the Chinese love playing squash? China has formed a government run Olympic medal producing machine which takes away the childhood of so many children. Don't try to escape that fact by pointing out to the inadequacies of India.

[coffee_rules]

My personal take - the over competitiveness in sports is a waste of time and human pursuit. Competitive and professional sports add nothing to the human civilization except give the general masses something to watch on TV while sipping beer or waste time in office the next morning talking about how some team would have beaten the other if a catch had not been dropped. Now, don't take it as I am advocating laziness or no physical activity. It's very important for each and every individual to be involved in semi rigorous physical activity to maintain good health, but beyond that if you can run 100 meters in 13 seconds or 9.58 seconds means nothing to the growth of the human civilization and society. Much rather spend that time learning science and take the human civilization further, quicker. Yeah, there are side benefits like us learning more about the human body from the experience of these great athletes.

This. The competitiveness of Olympics for mango people is in comparing the Gold medals to Population ratio to debate the country's reason for existence, is nothing bragging about who has a bigger d1ck.

[Lurker]

Why are you so shy to discuss the Chinese treatment of children to get medals without bringing in India's lack of a sporting pedigree?

Rather simply, because many of those who are taking a shot at Chinese are doing nothing but hiding their own lazy ar$es. I do not mean you of course. But still If you want me to state it categorically, Yes Chinese Govt's pursuit of Olympic glory by sacrificing kids future in certain sports is deplorable. Absolutely.

I am sure you have East European friends who have lived part of their lives under the Communist structure. Just ask them would they be willing to go back to their lives of those times in order to see an increase in the medal tally of their country at the Olympics? Such things don't happen in isolation. It's one thing for the government to provide the necessary infrastructure and coaching and a completely different thing for the government to start dictating the lives of children. The latter is the topic of discussion here, not the former.

Isn't this changing already Shwetabh? US thinktank is already under stress to "retain" overseas talent, specially Chinese, who are now more than ready to go back to their homeland, or to places like Hong Kong, instead of waiting forever for the elusive Green card. If the East European develop as much as Chinese have in recent time, and the same people have better options, they will move back as well.

My personal take - the over competitiveness in sports is a waste of time and human pursuit. Competitive and professional sports add nothing to the human civilization except give the general masses something to watch on TV while sipping beer or waste time in office the next morning talking about how some team would have beaten the other if a catch had not been dropped. Now, don't take it as I am advocating laziness or no physical activity. It's very important for each and every individual to be involved in semi rigorous physical activity to maintain good health, but beyond that if you can run 100 meters in 13 seconds or 9.58 seconds means nothing to the growth of the human civilization and society. Much rather spend that time learning science and take the human civilization further, quicker. Yeah, there are side benefits like us learning more about the human body from the experience of these great athletes. But I digress, coming back to the topic of China don't you find it strange that China has just developed a love for sports and sporting culture over the last 30 years or so? All of a sudden the average Chinese has become so enamored with sports that they have started topping Olympics medal tallies? And let's say I even buy that why has this love for sports been restricted to sports featuring only in Olympics? Why don't see any Chinese player in squash? Why don't the Chinese love playing squash? China has formed a government run Olympic medal producing machine which takes away the childhood of so many children. Don't try to escape that fact by pointing out to the inadequacies of India.

Personal opinions aside, here is a rather simple question to you. In 2016 Olympics if Chinese decide to boycott for some reason. And India as well. Who do you think the IOC and the sporting countries would be reaching after to make sure they reverse their decision and make them participate? Indians or Chinese? All good thoughts aside, our rants are just rants of toothless tiger who may cover our sporting lack of success by claoking it under philosophical ideologies. xxx

[straighttalk]

You definitely know that how? You have been accusing the US media' date=' but please quote your sources for the news. From forced 1 child norm to everything else, the chinese goverment jas always been known to force its citizens into most things. So I refuse to believe it will allow its citizens freedom iand choice in this matter[/quote'] the one child rule is a publicly defined policy...and it does have its merits ( and before you cry yourself hoarse..it has many demerits too).. if china had a policy that people have to participate in sports or come for trials and measurements....just like many countries have compulsory military training ..then you have a point... it is more like people are invited and when the students come...they are chosen on the basis of performance and physical metrics....none of my chineese friends had even given a trial for any olympics sports...because they were not interested... there is no where in the chineese state policy that sports is forced upon its people...even the media is not saying that they are kidnapped and forced..what they are pointing out is that the training is harsh and heartless. to me that is how champions are made and the participants are willing. the onus to prove that they are kidnapped lies with you because you are making assumptions. if you think logically, spending millions of dollars on unwilling kids is sure financial blunder.. but choosing a particular physique among the interested students...is a more tactical approach...and then ya the training is hard..but that is a very good thing.

[straighttalk]

You definitely know that how? You have been accusing the US media' date=' but please quote your sources for the news. From forced 1 child norm to everything else, the chinese goverment jas always been known to force its citizens into most things. So I refuse to believe it will allow its citizens freedom iand choice in this matter[/quote'] show me where the us media is saying that they are taken away from their parents against their wishes and made to train..they can never quit ...what they are saying is that the training is harsh, cant meet parents, injury is ignored... and i will eat my words and accept that china is everything evil..they decide where a person will work, what a person will eat, whom he or she will marry... hell these are things our indian parents decide...personal freedom in china is much different than political freedom... just because you do not get to choose a different political party does not mean you are in Gadaffi land...the chineese government is not a dictatorship even though the US media would like you to believe... stop trusting the western media..it is one of the most biased and jingoistic media house..unfortunately most people blindly believe them for a myriad of reasons.

[The Outsider]

Rather simply, because many of those who are taking a shot at Chinese are doing nothing but hiding their own lazy ar. I do not mean you of course. But still If you want me to state it categorically, Yes Chinese Govt's pursuit of Olympic glory by sacrificing kids future in certain sports is deplorable. Absolutely.

Yeah, as a nation we do not have a sporting culture, I agree. But people on this thread are not necessarily speaking in capacity of representing India, but offering a personal take on what we perceive to be pretty oppressive behavior on part of China and glad you agree on that count.

Isn't this changing already Shwetabh? US thinktank is already under stress to "retain" overseas talent, specially Chinese, who are now more than ready to go back to their homeland, or to places like Hong Kong, instead of waiting forever for the elusive Green card. If the East European develop as much as Chinese have in recent time, and the same people have better options, they will move back as well.

And I have nothing against the government spending tax money to prop up and support the sporting infrastructure and sportsperson. In fact, I would say it's good for a country to have a vibrant sporting culture and facilities. What happened in Eastern Europe and is continuing to happen in China and North Korea is for the state to decide the future of children. That is completely wrong. If the Chinese government intervention was confined to providing permanent residency, better incentives for sportsperson I would have had no criticism and would have appreciated the efforts.

Personal opinions aside, here is a rather simple question to you. In 2016 Olympics if Chinese decide to boycott for some reason. And India as well. Who do you think the IOC and the sporting countries would be reaching after to make sure they reverse their decision and make them participate? Indians or Chinese?

Obviously, China. But I don't see the broader point here. Obviously China is a bigger and better draw for the success of the Olympics than India and the IOC will ensure that it participates over India for the success of their event. Does that in itself make China a more powerful nation than India? Obviously not, because success in Olympics or any sport is very low down in the list of things that constitutes a successful nation. What would happen if US and China boycotted given their recent Olympic success is roughly the same?

All good thoughts aside, our rants are just rants of toothless tiger who may cover our sporting lack of success by claoking it under philosophical ideologies. xxx

If "our" is as a representative of India, yes. But what I am expressing here has nothing to do with the idea that I may be representing India in any way. It's my personal opinion on the information provided by many reputed sources, New York Times among them. As I wrote above, China has not developed a sporting culture in 30 years, which can be attested by talking to Chinese you know or even a casual glance of the number of native Chinese you see taking part in sports in the US. They have developed an Olympic medal producing machinery in which children are suffering.

[Lurker]

if you think logically, spending millions of dollars on unwilling kids is sure financial blunder.. but choosing a particular physique among the interested students...is a more tactical approach...and then ya the training is hard..but that is a very good thing.

That is a very pertinent point. Why was it so difficult for a great batsman like Rahul Dravid to become a heavy hitter in LOI? This after he had spent a couple of decades doing nothing but train to bat! Why is it so difficult for a middle order, or even one-down batsman to suddenly ask to open? When these hardcore professionals who are adults and have enough experience under the belt fail to do so, how does it become easy for Chinese to literally pick kids from street, put them under heavy regime and make them world beaters in diving? Straighttalk is right on, the training is gruesome. Yes. But lets not make all the success down to the Govt. These kids and athletes love their game and also enjoy the returns. Their may be a lesson here for Indians, if we are honest with ourselves of course.

[triam]

Lurker, As an indian am I ashamed at the lack of physical fitness and sporting pedigree in Indians? yes absolutely (I get so annoyed seeing Indian guys in their 20's with pot bellies). Does the culture need to change with regards to this in India. absolutely yes. My question is why look at China, why not the USA, Aus or even some country like Jamaica to adapt the sporting culture from those places. China does a lot of underhanded stuff, which could lead to great results but which I dont want any part of.

[Lurker]

But I don't see the broader point here.

The broader point is thus - Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. One of the first sporting kahawats that I can remember was Iran ke pehelwaan. Iran has always been a formidable force on world circuit, definitely Asian circuits in Wrestling, Weighlifting and Taekwondo. And so I looked up today to see how Iran has performed in 2012. Well they have taken 4 golds already. Let that sink in. Iran has 4 effing gold. And I can guarantee you that if Iran decided to boycott 2016 Olympics, the commentators who shall cover Wrestling would be lamenting how Irani pehelwaans are being missed. If India decided to skip 2016 Olympics rest assured nobody, in any godamn sports, shall battle an eyelid. To me that is far more embarassing point that to take stabs at a country with 50 Gold medal haul. But that may be just me :winky: