Olympics nothing less than a war for China

[jind]

You know what I find funny in this thread... how some people have linked the 'hard training of these children' and those that oppose it to 'Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones." just because India doesn't win many medals at the Olympics. Strong correlation :headshake:

[straighttalk]

Once again - I have a personal opinion to this. We shouldn't go full scale on all the games in Olympics IF we want to make a mark. I will mark out certain games like boxing' date=' wrestling, archery, shooting etc. and will support these over others. We just need to make a list of 10 sports and provide same facilities to work within our budget - whatever amount that this. So we just "focus" on certain aspects. Now once done and these sports/games achieve their goal, we move on to the next 10. The assumption is once the Top 10 reach a level they would get enough corporate sponsorship/recognition to become self sufficient.[/quote'] very good idea...at the elite level...our focus should be on a few games..but at grass roots level...we can include track and field (requires less money), gymnastics, swimming..sports we are not traditionally good at..make nationwide trials, provide stipends and food and lodging...many poor kids might find livelihood instead of languishing as child laborers...plus based on their upbringing they would have a much higher killer instinct... they should also be given +12 level education...so that the are ready for the world... such sports school ..im sure 10-15 years down the line will produce results... follow the chineese model..the good points and weed out their not so good things... a few medals will create a buzz..and then maybe we can follow the american model..when national perception changes...

[Lurker]

Currently' date=' [b']the Olympics is an amalgamation of games that are introduced by nations just because they are good at it. Basketball? TT? Tennis? Hockey? Why should these be Olympic sports?

You can not possibly be serious Mariyam. What is more primitive, and natural, than running (say). We suck there gloriously. What is uncommon about swimming and diving? We suck there gloriously too. If you simply took these three streams - Athletics, Swimming, diving - they would make for about 50 or so golds and 150 or so total medals. And we are never in contention! Lets quit making excuses with hockey and basketball which has a grand total of 2 gold medals, or 4 if you include both genders.

Why is that embarrassing for you? The Olympics was never meant to an event that showcased the sporting prowess of a country. It was meant to be an events where athletes could compete against each other. All this medal counting for nations is completely contra the spirit of the Olympics if you ask me.

Why am I embarassed? Or why should you be embarassed? Really? That much denial. Hmm lets see. a) I am embarassed that our collective history of 25 plus Olympics (since 1928) has yeilded a grand total of 10 Gold Medals. China has won more golds in 7 out of the last 8 Olympics they participated in. Yes let that sink in. Our neighbour to the North typically win more medals every Olympics than our combined history. You bet that embarasses me. b) I am embarassed that when the top athlete list is chalked out in Olympics history no Indian name is put forth. From Paavo Nurmi, Fanny Blankers Coyen, Li Ning, Redgrave, Flo-Jo, Carl Lewis, Phelps, Bolt, Thorpe, Dawn Fraser...when the top 100, even top 1000 list is chalked out an Indian is not even considered. Only our hockey players, Dhyanchand, in particular will make the cut. And then we would have Sachinistas jumping over themselves to prove why SRT is more eligible for Bharat Ratna ahead of Dhyanchand. Yes that embarasses me too. c) I am embarassed by the fact that since time immemorial, when it comes to top draw rivalry, the kind where the entire sporting world is split in two camps, one for each protagonist, we have never had a horse! So be it Sebastian Coe-Steve Ovett rivalry. Or Ben Johnson - Carl Lewis, Phelps - Thorpe or modern day Bolt-Blake rivalry. Most successful country citizens will have their moments like that when they rally and support a Thorpe or a Soni or a Torres. We, and I, suck our thumbs and talk about sporting philosphies. Yes that embarasses me too. By the way. Is your philosphy similar in cricket as well? Or do you felt embarassed when we were beaten 0-8 recently fairly recently?

[Crookbond]

very good idea...at the elite level...our focus should be on a few games..but at grass roots level...we can include track and field (requires less money)' date=' gymnastics, swimming..sports we are not traditionally good at..make nationwide trials, provide stipends and food and lodging...many poor kids might find livelihood instead of languishing as child laborers...plus based on their upbringing they would have a much higher killer instinct... they should also be given +12 level education...so that the are ready for the world... such sports school ..im sure 10-15 years down the line will produce results... follow the chineese model..the good points and weed out their not so good things... a few medals will create a buzz..and then maybe we can follow the american model..when national perception changes...[/quote'] In fact, I can assure you that if the budget of 50 Million is spent absolutely on the Olympics we will have more medals without doing anything. Someone from USA can scorn and say just 50 Million, we spend 8 times more BUT 50 Million USD in India is not the same as that in USA due to purchasing power parity etc.

[coffee_rules]

Apart from facilities, training constantly is very important. Phelps won gold in Beijing had to start from scratch once to attain the world class level again in 2012. Our Bindra won gold in 2008, he was eliminated in 2012 in early rounds, lack oj focus and training once the gold is achieved. India has invested in foreign coaches - even in boxing, I heard about a cuban coach. Nobbs in hockey, I guess it takes a lot to be world class. Still going to harsh training on young kids picked up from streets is not the way to go. There is no security blanket for them if they fail in that model. That's what the western media is showing in the Chinese way. They pick poor kids, train them, but if they fail, they are left on the streets to beg.

[Crookbond]

Apart from facilities, training constantly is very important. Phelps won gold in Beijing had to start from scratch once to attain the world class level again in 2012. Our Bindra won gold in 2008, he was eliminated in 2012 in early rounds, lack oj focus and training once the gold is achieved. India has invested in foreign coaches - even in boxing, I heard about a cuban coach. Nobbs in hockey, I guess it takes a lot to be world class. Still going to harsh training on young kids picked up from streets is not the way to go. There is no security blanket for them if they fail in that model. That's what the western media is showing in the Chinese way. They pick poor kids, train them, but if they fail, they are left on the streets to beg.

This isn't the case according to some of my friends in China. Kids join from their parents volition - no one is forced (read my earlier post in detail). Their performance is not measured in terms of medals but in terms their everyday progress. Even if they don't perform well in sports, they are supported in their education which makes them financially independent.

[Lurker]

australia's poor performance in Olympics (relatively) and see how concerned they are... http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/08/08/gold-medal-funding-means-more-gold-medals-right/ http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/london-games/no-crisis-but-lundy-points-to-sport-review-after-poor-olympic-medal-haul/story-e6frgdg6-1226443787985 http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/08/07/3562610.htm http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/australia-losing-more-than-medals/story-e6frfhqo-1226444262859 http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/08/10/london-and-montreal-a-case-of-olympic-deja-vu/

I had mentioned this the other day how EVERY major country is following some sort of model where they are investing heavily with a dedicated keen eye on Olympics. That is what Brits have done, French and now Aussies too. This, in my opinion, is a similar take on the erstwhile East European/Russian model. A national level enterprise trying to make a dedicated effort instead of simply relying on individuals showing up as talented individuals. Of course East European/Russians had the entire Govt machinery with all its fallacies, but the basic premise of a concerted effort remains true.

[straighttalk]

Apart from facilities, training constantly is very important. Phelps won gold in Beijing had to start from scratch once to attain the world class level again in 2012. Our Bindra won gold in 2008, he was eliminated in 2012 in early rounds, lack oj focus and training once the gold is achieved. India has invested in foreign coaches - even in boxing, I heard about a cuban coach. Nobbs in hockey, I guess it takes a lot to be world class. Still going to harsh training on young kids picked up from streets is not the way to go. There is no security blanket for them if they fail in that model. That's what the western media is showing in the Chinese way. They pick poor kids, train them, but if they fail, they are left on the streets to beg.

you are totally discounting the fact that the superior fitness levels will bring them employment opportunities...many becomes coach and physical trainers in schools, coaches, join army etc etc.. these kids are poor... they earn money, eat well, and train..they gain a lot...this is making their future better...

[straighttalk]

was looking at this video....gave me goosebumps..pity the girls tested positive later on and could not take part in the Olympic...and the BBC commentator was awesome lmYCvd56s7w

[Mariyam]

By the way. Is your philosphy similar in cricket as well? Or do you felt embarassed when we were beaten 0-8 recently fairly recently?

Lurker (and straighttalk), your points were quite similar so my this is a unified response. Lurker, I do not understand what exactly you mean when you say I'm in denial. In denial of what? I know that we don't do all that well in the Olympics, so what exactly am I denying? Does a 8-0 loss in cricket or a low medal count in the Olympics embarrass me? No chance. These are trivial things. Just games. You lose some, you win some ( in our case, very few). Why should I be embarrassed if the Indian cricket team lost 8-0? They should be embarrassed. So should the BCCI. And the comparison to cricket team is not even fair. The Cricket team does represent India. A sporting loss never embarrasses me. Sports is supposed to be fun. When we win, like we did in the WC, I'm ecstatic. If we lose, I'm sad for a day at max, but never embarrassed. Am I embarrassed by the fact that we have amongst us some hooligans who desecrate the statue of the Amar Jawan? yes Does the power failure of the northern grid on 2 days embarrass me? yes Does the fact that female foeticide is so rampant among a section of the urban educated ( and the elite too, I dare add)? yes Does a low medal count in the Olympics embarrass me? not at all. I think you (and straighttalk) have really bought into this Olympic hype. As far I know, the Olympics were originally an event that brought various athletes together and saw them compete in various events. The spirit of the event is competition. I do not subscribe to notion that nations should compete against each other in Olympics. It doesn't matter what nation the athlete belongs to.This is the reason I am against team games like Basketball, Hockey etc being a part of the Olympics. Saina or Sushil Kumar or Vijender should be participating in the games because they want to win, representing themselves. This whole idea of athletes in individual events representing a nation is preposterous. On the topic of the thread, it is a very well documented fact, that East Germany, Poland, Romania and the USSR had cheated ( doped) their way to victory in multiple Olympics at multiple events. And mind you, this wasn't a case of an odd athlete or coach who cheated, but the Olympic committees had institutionalized cheating (doping). Winning became so important, that any means were considered fair. Some of the adverse effects of mixing nationalism with sports. I'm afraid that's what you guys ( and the Chinese are doing too).

[suraj]

Lurker (and straighttalk), your points were quite similar so my this is a unified response. Lurker, I do not understand what exactly you mean when you say I'm in denial. In denial of what? I know that we don't do all that well in the Olympics, so what exactly am I denying? Does a 8-0 loss in cricket or a low medal count in the Olympics embarrass me? No chance. These are trivial things. Just games. You lose some, you win some ( in our case, very few). Why should I be embarrassed if the Indian cricket team lost 8-0? They should be embarrassed. So should the BCCI. And the comparison to cricket team is not even fair. The Cricket team does represent India. A sporting loss never embarrasses me. Sports is supposed to be fun. When we win, like we did in the WC, I'm ecstatic. If we lose, I'm sad for a day at max, but never embarrassed. Am I embarrassed by the fact that we have amongst us some hooligans who desecrate the statue of the Amar Jawan? yes Does the power failure of the northern grid on 2 days embarrass me? yes Does the fact that female foeticide is so rampant among a section of the urban educated ( and the elite too, I dare add)? yes Does a low medal count in the Olympics embarrass me? not at all. I think you (and straighttalk) have really bought into this Olympic hype. As far I know, the Olympics were originally an event that brought various athletes together and saw them compete in various events. The spirit of the event is competition. I do not subscribe to notion that nations should compete against each other in Olympics. It doesn't matter what nation the athlete belongs to.This is the reason I am against team games like Basketball, Hockey etc being a part of the Olympics. Saina or Sushil Kumar or Vijender should be participating in the games because they want to win, representing themselves. This whole idea of athletes in individual events representing a nation is preposterous. On the topic of the thread, it is a very well documented fact, that East Germany, Poland, Romania and the USSR had cheated ( doped) their way to victory in multiple Olympics at multiple events. And mind you, this wasn't a case of an odd athlete or coach who cheated, but the Olympic committees had institutionalized cheating (doping). Winning became so important, that any means were considered fair. Some of the adverse effects of mixing nationalism with sports. I'm afraid that's what you guys ( and the Chinese are doing too).

Good post :two_thumbs_up::two_thumbs_up:

[Lurker]

Lurker (and straighttalk), your points were quite similar so my this is a unified response. Lurker, I do not understand what exactly you mean when you say I'm in denial. In denial of what? I know that we don't do all that well in the Olympics, so what exactly am I denying? Does a 8-0 loss in cricket or a low medal count in the Olympics embarrass me? No chance. These are trivial things. Just games. You lose some, you win some ( in our case, very few). Why should I be embarrassed if the Indian cricket team lost 8-0? They should be embarrassed. So should the BCCI. And the comparison to cricket team is not even fair. The Cricket team does represent India. A sporting loss never embarrasses me. Sports is supposed to be fun. When we win, like we did in the WC, I'm ecstatic. If we lose, I'm sad for a day at max, but never embarrassed. Am I embarrassed by the fact that we have amongst us some hooligans who desecrate the statue of the Amar Jawan? yes Does the power failure of the northern grid on 2 days embarrass me? yes Does the fact that female foeticide is so rampant among a section of the urban educated ( and the elite too, I dare add)? yes Does a low medal count in the Olympics embarrass me? not at all. I think you (and straighttalk) have really bought into this Olympic hype. As far I know, the Olympics were originally an event that brought various athletes together and saw them compete in various events. The spirit of the event is competition. I do not subscribe to notion that nations should compete against each other in Olympics. It doesn't matter what nation the athlete belongs to.This is the reason I am against team games like Basketball, Hockey etc being a part of the Olympics. Saina or Sushil Kumar or Vijender should be participating in the games because they want to win, representing themselves. This whole idea of athletes in individual events representing a nation is preposterous. On the topic of the thread, it is a very well documented fact, that East Germany, Poland, Romania and the USSR had cheated ( doped) their way to victory in multiple Olympics at multiple events. And mind you, this wasn't a case of an odd athlete or coach who cheated, but the Olympic committees had institutionalized cheating (doping). Winning became so important, that any means were considered fair. Some of the adverse effects of mixing nationalism with sports. I'm afraid that's what you guys ( and the Chinese are doing too).

We are so far off on this topic let us just agree to disagree. Not worth my time, perhaps yours either.

[suraj]

We are so far off on this topic let us just agree to disagree. Not worth my time' date=' perhaps yours either.[/quote'] Lurker always strong on performance but is losing stamina nowdays :giggle::giggle: Buddapa???

[WC2011INDIA]

Nah.......they have they have tons of fun while undergoing training for olympics. ...

[Stuge]

dood :WTF: is that add some warning or spoiler .

[yoda]

Does a low medal count in the Olympics embarrass me? not at all.

It should and I bet it does to each and every one of us. yourself included. The Olympics are the greatest sporting spectacle on earth. That is true for Brazil, for India, Namibia or the US. You don't need to take anyone's word for it, all you have to do is just watch the events. There is no point is getting defensive about our pathetic state. That said, let's hope we break the 10 medal mark in 2016.

[Vijay.Sharma]

It should and I bet it does to each and every one of us. yourself included. The Olympics are the greatest sporting spectacle on earth. That is true for Brazil, for India, Namibia or the US. You don't need to take anyone's word for it, all you have to do is just watch the events. There is no point is getting defensive about our pathetic state. That said, let's hope we break the 10 medal mark in 2016.

But what embarrasses you is a personal thing and there should be no compulsions to that. In fact I don't even find the things that embarrass Mariyam embarrassing enough for me. Why? Because I am responsible for my actions...I am not responsible for the actions of someone I don't even know. And this doesn't change if the person is from my neighborhood, or city,m or state, or country. So, should I be embarrassed because some idiots destroyed the Army memorial? No, I didn't do it neither do I know any of the perpetrators. At least if I knew any of them I would have reason to be embarrassed. Embarrass is not the right word in this context. I am not embarrassed that I am a citizen of a country that does not win medals at the Olympics. I take great joy in our achievements in cricket or even the few medals we have won but I don't need to feel embarrassed of not winning. If I was working with the power plants in India then I would have good reason to be embarrassed for the failure of the national grid. But when I am in no position to even infinitesimally influence anything in the working of the national grid, why must I be embarrassed if it fails?

[chanakya]

Its all about incentives.. if you do well you get stuff, else you well basically go down the drain.. North Korea Labour Camps. :P China you should really take a look at the Discovery documentary it was exhaustive. The kid gymnasts working hours are grueling The problem though is the fact the kids do have a choice, perform or perish and they will go any lengths to perform not because they like the sport or want gold that becomes the only way to pull their families hopefully out of poverty. Kinda like kids in India and studies but on a much larger scale where you cannot even rebel against the system and the system will do whatever it can to make you or break you On the other what straight talk does not talk about or the reports do not go into detail is what happens to those kids who done make it. Only the elite get anything, two levels below and you are left with a battered body and not even a future that you could have made, if you had been in any other field. It is not difficult to see that the people who succeed from China are not from the upper class or even the middle class, they are most from the poor, unless you have party affiliations you are screwed. Just speak to the Chinese.. Is it effective hell yeah Does that mean TigerMoms are great? hell no

[coffee_rules]

It should and I bet it does to each and every one of us. yourself included. The Olympics are the greatest sporting spectacle on earth. That is true for Brazil, for India, Namibia or the US. You don't need to take anyone's word for it, all you have to do is just watch the events. There is no point is getting defensive about our pathetic state. That said, let's hope we break the 10 medal mark in 2016.

No, it doesn't. If I fail an exam or gain weight sitting on my ass, I feel embarrassed. But not for our olympic performance. I felt proud and happy that we got 6 medals. I never expected to see this .

[Crookbond]

Its all about incentives.. if you do well you get stuff, else you well basically go down the drain.. North Korea Labour Camps. :P China you should really take a look at the Discovery documentary it was exhaustive. The kid gymnasts working hours are grueling The problem though is the fact the kids do have a choice, perform or perish and they will go any lengths to perform not because they like the sport or want gold that becomes the only way to pull their families hopefully out of poverty. Kinda like kids in India and studies but on a much larger scale where you cannot even rebel against the system and the system will do whatever it can to make you or break you On the other what straight talk does not talk about or the reports do not go into detail is what happens to those kids who done make it. Only the elite get anything, two levels below and you are left with a battered body and not even a future that you could have made, if you had been in any other field. It is not difficult to see that the people who succeed from China are not from the upper class or even the middle class, they are most from the poor, unless you have party affiliations you are screwed. Just speak to the Chinese.. Is it effective hell yeah Does that mean TigerMoms are great? hell no

It's a good virtue to read before making a statement [1]. Not all Discovery documentaries are a Koran. [1] http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2068973&postcount=348