Shouldn't Dhoni also resign as test captain ?

[rkt.india]

On those pitches we had them down 27-4,200-6 and eng 170-5 .but we sat back . in 2008-09 we scored 470 and441 in matches we won.

Truth is we did not have good enough bowlers who could maintain consistency and intensity and that is a harsh reality.

[maniac]

It was not an amazing series by any means' date=' but a good series, and he was [b']coming back from injury with a pot belly.

That was never a criteria for us atleast when picking up a staring X1

[CG]

We didn't sit back' date=' it was the opposing batsmen who counter-attacked. Case in Point was the 27/4 against Aus where Ponting/Hussey went after our bowling and hit at least a 4 every over. Bottomline was that Aussie batsmen were able to do what ours weren't i.e. show up in big moments. We had Aussies on the rope at the end of Day 2 of the first Test. We were 210/2 replying to Aus score of 280 in the 1st innings and then we imploded. If our batsmen had shown some balls and scored 350+ from that position we would have won the match and the whole series could have been different. At the end of the day our batsmen weren't good enough to grab their chances which the opponents did.[/quote'] Yeah we spread the field to facilitate that.sorry but if you turn blind eye to so many obvious errors that many pointed out and some you would also have during the tests ,there is no point in debating.

[Ultimate_Game]

Sitting out seniors doesn't mean some obscure chop/change rotation policy...you either drop someone or don't....the chop/change policy was bizarre tbh....wonder what that was going to acheive

Do you think he didn't try? Do you think he could have simply sat out Tendulkar just like that? He wouldn't have been allowed to be back in India after that coz majority of Indians would rather lose a match and see a SRT 100 than win the match without him in the team. We all saw the same when after losing to B'desh most of the folks, including media, were happy about the 100th 100 than be bothered about loss to B'desh which knocked us out of the tourney. In fact even the banner of this website (ICF) was changed to honor the 100th 100 when we all saw how that 100 was achieved. Hell, forget benching seniors that time. If Tendulkar comes out with a statement that he wants to play the WC in 2015 nobody can drop him. If Dhoni tries to do so he will be dropped but Tendulkar will still be in the team for the WC. This is how Indian cricket works but you can have a go at Dhoni for the same :giggle:

[CG]

Truth is we did not have good enough bowlers who could maintain consistency and intensity and that is a harsh reality.

I do not think so it was magnified by poor captaincy ,you can check your own comments during aus tour.

[rkt.india]

That was never a criteria for us atleast when picking up a staring X1

That was. You cannot pick two bowlers who are coming back from injury without any match practice and both have doubtful fitness which Zak and Sreesanth were and Ishant was in good form prior to that tour in WI while PK supported him well and Zak was obvious choice as a lead bowler.

[Ultimate_Game]

Yeah we spread the field to facilitate that.sorry but if you turn blind eye to so many obvious errors that many pointed out and some you would also have during the tests ' date='there is no point in debating.[/quote'] Yes we did spread the field but if the captain doesn't have any runs to play with what options does he have? That's why I said that if he had at least some runs to play with he could have tried something but not when you were always behind the proverbial 8 ball. Our opponents, and agains using that 27/4 example, knew the same and counter-attacked. They knew we didn't have any runs at all and if they could score quickly pressure would be back on us. just imagine if we had 200 more runs in our kitty we could have outlasted Aussies' counter-attack and gone for the kill but without runs on the board you simply can't do it.

[jj_28]

Virat needs some time before he can take over

[rkt.india]

I do not think so it was magnified by poor captaincy ' date='you can check your own comments during aus tour.[/quote'] Captaincy was a factor but in hindsight I can also say that our bowlers bowled poorly. Zak was only effective with new ball. Yadav lacked consistency gave too many boundary balls, economy over 4.5 in 4 tests, Ishant always missing edges, though economical several times but did not get wickets at all. So it does not matter how good a captain tactically is if bowlers cannot put balls in right areas consistently, he will be helpless. Captain cannot hold their hands and make them bowl in right areas. He can set fields and he can only set good fields if bowlers bowl to their fields. Our batsmen did not score runs and our bowlers gave them on platter with boundary ball every over.

[Lord]

I am not asking the team to score 500+ every game but surely scoring 300 or so has to be achievable. Do you recall the Aussie series in 2008-09 when Indians didn't score that much but enough for Dhoni to do something about it and the way he set the 7-2 or 8-1 field and asked his bowlers to bowl outside off. But when you are consistently getting bowled out for 160 within 60 overs on Day 1 of a Test you can't do much.

that 2009 wala captain is long gone.Dhoni is shadow of that. about scores,here it goes England 1st test: England batted first n scored 474/8.nothing to do with batsmen.India 286(close to 300).England scored 269/6 after being 62/5.India 261(not great but not bad as well).batted 100 overs 2nd test:England 221 n India take 67 run lead,only for England to score mammoth 544.target was 478.India got out for 158 but match was lost in 3rd innings 3rd test:India 224 all out.low score.would hv been happy with a deficit of 70 odd.but England scored 710/7.match lost there 4th test.England again score mammoth 591/6.India scored 300 n 283,not bad scores in intself Australia: 1st test:Aus 333.India 280.Aus 240,but India shot out for only 169.there u can blame the batsmen 2nd test:India 191.would hv accepted even a 100 run lead,but Aus scored 650.India score 400 in 2nd dig but rendered useless by bowling effort 3rd test: India shot out for 160,pathetic score but a green top,Aus still score 370.India 170.I guess u can blame batsmen here too. 4th test: Aus scored mammoth 604,nothing to do with batting.India 272,decent score but rendered useless.Aus score 167 n set 500 for us.was never gonna happen so only 2 tests where batsmen could be blamed.hardly a situation where captain couldnt hv done anything

[maniac]

Do you think he didn't try? Do you think he could have simply sat out Tendulkar just like that? He wouldn't have been allowed to be back in India after that coz majority of Indians would rather lose a match and see a SRT 100 than win the match without him in the team. We all saw the same when after losing to B'desh most of the folks, including media, were happy about the 100th 100 than be bothered about loss to B'desh which knocked us out of the tourney. In fact even the banner of this website (ICF) was changed to honor the 100th 100 when we all saw how that 100 was achieved. Hell, forget benching seniors that time. If Tendulkar comes out with a statement that he wants to play the WC in 2015 nobody can drop him. If Dhoni tries to do so he will be dropped but Tendulkar will still be in the team for the WC. This is how Indian cricket works but you can have a go at Dhoni for the same :giggle:

:icflove: I get the vibe where this is going....Is this the start for a 20+ page debate thread? :woot: Firstly don't know how SRT fits into the picture but since the thread is about Dhoni's overseas record recently...Yes let us all nullify SRT's contribution due to our bowling could not defend 290+ against a minnow side(let us start the roulette )....Jeez

[Ultimate_Game]

that 2009 wala captain is long gone.Dhoni is shadow of that. about scores,here it goes England 1st test: England batted first n scored 474/8.nothing to do with batsmen.India 286(close to 300).England scored 269/6 after being 62/5.India 261(not great but not bad as well).batted 100 overs 2nd test:England 221 n India take 67 run lead,only for England to score mammoth 544.target was 478.India got out for 158 but match was lost in 3rd innings 3rd test:India 224 all out.low score.would hv been happy with a deficit of 70 odd.but England scored 710/7.match lost there 4th test.England again score mammoth 591/6.India scored 300 n 283,not bad scores in intself Australia: 1st test:Aus 333.India 280.Aus 240,but India shot out for only 169.there u can blame the batsmen 2nd test:India 191.would hv accepted even a 100 run lead,but Aus scored 650.India score 400 in 2nd dig but rendered useless by bowling effort 3rd test: India shot out for 160,pathetic score but a green top,Aus still score 370.India 170.I guess u can blame batsmen here too. 4th test: Aus scored mammoth 604,nothing to do with batting.India 272,decent score but rendered useless.Aus score 167 n set 500 for us.was never gonna happen so only 2 tests where batsmen could be blamed.hardly a situation where captain couldnt hv done anything

The same captain will win even now given runs on the board and as your post shows how incompetent our batting was on away tours. Between you didn't account for the fact that Zaheer broke down in the middle of a Test for umpteenth time and left the captain & the team high and dry.

[Ultimate_Game]

:icflove: I get the vibe where this is going....Is this the start for a 20+ page debate thread? :woot: Firstly don't know how SRT fits into the picture but since the thread is about Dhoni's overseas record recently...Yes let us all nullify SRT's contribution due to our bowling could not defend 290+ against a minnow side(let us start the roulette )....Jeez

I was simply making the point that it's not easy for Dhoni to just kick out seniors and Indians somehow love individual stats even though they come at the cost of a team win. One of the crosses against Dhoni was that he didn't drop the seniors and my post was regarding the same. Honestly do you see Dhoni or anyone for that matter drop someone like Tendulkar if he says he wants to play in 2015 WC? I say no but maybe others can blame Dhoni for not doing so and blame his "lack of leadership". I guess Dhoni has to score runs for batsmen, take catches for fielders, take wkts for bowlers and make tough selections for selectors :giggle:

[maniac]

I was simply making the point that it's not easy for Dhoni to just kick out seniors and Indians somehow love individual stats even though they come at the cost of a team win. One of the crosses against Dhoni was that he didn't drop the seniors and my post was regarding the same. Honestly do you see Dhoni or anyone for that matter drop someone like Tendulkar if he says he wants to play in 2015 WC? I say no but maybe others can blame Dhoni for not doing so and blame his "lack of leadership".

Firstly even if Dhoni was a brave leader he supposedly is....what would be his rationale behind dropping SRT in the CB series can you explain...here is a guy who had more than a decent run in the WC...didn't play after that due to injuries...so all of a sudden he should be dropped in the next series he decides to play?

[Lord]

The same captain will win even now given runs on the board and as your post shows how incompetent our batting was on away tours. Between you didn't account for the fact that Zaheer broke down in the middle of a Test for umpteenth time and left the captain & the team high and dry.

there were decent runs on the board except 2 tests.we conceded much more.that was the problem.in India u expect batsmen to plie on the runs,overseas u expect bowlers to win u games by taking 20 wickets for decent amount of runs.that didnt happened about Zak,he was present in Aus.

[Ultimate_Game]

Firstly even if Dhoni was a brave leader he supposedly is....what would be his rationale behind dropping SRT in the CB series can you explain...here is a guy who had more than a decent run in the WC...didn't play after that due to injuries...so all of a sudden he should be dropped in the next series he decides to play?

You are missing the point. The point was not whether X or Y deserved to be dropped but whether the captain (Dhoni) could have even done that if he wanted. Between IMO Tendulkar should have ben dropped as he looked out of sorts in Aus, especially after the 1st 2 Tests. I would have gone with Rahane to see what he could do.

there were decent runs on the board except 2 tests.we conceded much more.that was the problem.in India u expect batsmen to plie on the runs,overseas u expect bowlers to win u games by taking 20 wickets for decent amount of runs.that didnt happened about Zak,he was present in Aus.

I guess our definitions of "runs on the board" differ quite a lot. For me getting 200 odd on the same pitch where the opponents scored 700 odd and then declared is not runs on the board. It shows our batting was so shyte they couldn't even score on a patta. I fail to understand what Dhoni or anyone else could have done on that pitch :dontknow: I don't know what magical tricks he could have used to get England bowled out in 200s instead of 700 odd they piled up. Crux of the matter was that our opponents never had scoreboard pressure to contend with and knew that one good partnership would get them off the hook. Historically India has always relied on batsmen to pile up big runs and force opponents to crumble. We never had bowlers who could blow away the opponents. Ganguly used the same tactics, before him Azhar and before Azhar all the captains we ever had. Without runs on the board we were never any good. Dhoni didn't get that luxury on recent tours and even Ganguly & other captains would have floundered with the scores we put up.

[The Outsider]

1. Dhoni flopped as a batsman in the 0-8. Dhoni fanboy: It's not his job to score runs. He is a wicketkeeper-batsman. 2. He sucked as keeper regularly letting catches go between himself and slip and standing too far back so that many edges fell short of the slips. Dhoni fanboy: He is not the best keeper but as a package he is great. 3. His captaincy was poor letting opposition get to huge scores with defensive fields. Dhoni fanboy: Bowling was poor. What can the captain do with injured and poor bowlers. So what is Dhoni's role in the team?

[Raghav_12]

that 2009 wala captain is long gone.Dhoni is shadow of that. about scores,here it goes England 1st test: England batted first n scored 474/8.nothing to do with batsmen.India 286(close to 300).England scored 269/6 after being 62/5.India 261(not great but not bad as well).batted 100 overs 2nd test:England 221 n India take 67 run lead,only for England to score mammoth 544.target was 478.India got out for 158 but match was lost in 3rd innings 3rd test:India 224 all out.low score.would hv been happy with a deficit of 70 odd.but England scored 710/7.match lost there 4th test.England again score mammoth 591/6.India scored 300 n 283,not bad scores in intself Australia: 1st test:Aus 333.India 280.Aus 240,but India shot out for only 169.there u can blame the batsmen 2nd test:India 191.would hv accepted even a 100 run lead,but Aus scored 650.India score 400 in 2nd dig but rendered useless by bowling effort 3rd test: India shot out for 160,pathetic score but a green top,Aus still score 370.India 170.I guess u can blame batsmen here too. 4th test: Aus scored mammoth 604,nothing to do with batting.India 272,decent score but rendered useless.Aus score 167 n set 500 for us.was never gonna happen so only 2 tests where batsmen could be blamed.hardly a situation where captain couldnt hv done anything

Excellent Post. I also thought batsmen did cop more flak then they deserved for this 0-8 thing. I don't agree that Melbourne test we lost because of batsmen failure. That was the only test that we kind of dominated for some period of time. We had Australia 214/6, but then we allowed them to score 333. Poor captaincy. In reply India was 214 for 2 with Sachin hitting fluent 73 and Dravid, Sehwag contributing handsomely. But then our lower middle order floundered completely. Dhoni preferred to score 6. A decent contribution from Dhoni and Kohli could have taken India to in lead situation and whole story of series could have been different (there I recall what Dada had done in first test back in 2003) Anyways., my main point is that Aus debacle was not only about batting failure. Aus lost two test matches in last summer and in none of the matches, opposition team batted better than what Indians did last year. NZ had won a test in Australia only few days ago even after scoring 150 and 230 runs. Few days before that, Australia was defeated by SA also after scoring 96 in first innings. Not denying that Batsman failed. But it's not because of that only we lost. It was also because of bowling failure and poor captaincy. And for overall team failure, Captain should take the blame.

[Ultimate_Game]

1. Dhoni flopped as a batsman in the 0-8. Dhoni fanboy: It's not his job to score runs. He is a wicketkeeper-batsman. 2. He sucked as keeper regularly letting catches go between himself and slip and standing too far back so that many edges fell short of the slips. Dhoni fanboy: He is not the best keeper but as a package he is great. 3. His captaincy was poor letting opposition get to huge scores with defensive fields. Dhoni fanboy: Bowling was poor. What can the captain do with injured and poor bowlers. So what is Dhoni's role in the team?

Dhoni's critics... 1. He should have scored tons of runs even though our so called specialist batsmen couldn't. 2. Dhoni should have grabbed every half-chance even though his keeping wasn't that bad. 3. Dhoni should have magically gotten the opponents out for sub 200 scores just because our opponents were able to bowl us out under 200 consistently within 70 overs on Day 1 of the tests. 4. Dhoni should have shown "leadership skills" by droping the seniors even though our selectors couldn't make the tough calls. Yup, we get it. It was all Dhoni's fault and if we had some other captain we would have thrashed Eng and Aus away :two_thumbs_up:

[Lord]

I guess our definitions of "runs on the board" differ quite a lot. For me getting 200 odd on the same pitch where the opponents scored 700 odd and then declared is not runs on the board. It shows our batting was so shyte they couldn't even score on a patta. I fail to understand what Dhoni or anyone else could have done on that pitch :dontknow: I don't know what magical tricks he could have used to get England bowled out in 200s instead of 700 odd they piled up. Crux of the matter was that our opponents never had scoreboard pressure to contend with and knew that one good partnership would get them off the hook. Historically India has always relied on batsmen to pile up big runs and force opponents to crumble. We never had bowlers who could blow away the opponents. Ganguly used the same tactics, before him Azhar and before Azhar all the captains we ever had. Without runs on the board we were never any good. Dhoni didn't get that luxury on recent tours and even Ganguly & other captains would have floundered with the scores we put up.

the opposition got 700 against our bowlers n still u see fault in batting:laugh:no that wasnt a flat pitch(Edgbaston).not a 200 wicket but not a 700 wicket either.we didnt need t bowl them for 200.300 would hv been okay.not 700. chalo even if I give u that,what about instances where oppositions batted first n piled on 474,591 n 604???whats the batsmen fault there?n in 2nd test in England where we did get a lead only for England to score 544.that wasnt a flat deck surely. yeah historically we only won wen batsmen piled on the runs?whats the captains contribution there?any decent captain can do that.shouldnt that change.how long will batsmen continue to save bowlers's asses.